Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

I wonder if Pierre Trudeau not intervening in the Accord would have actually resulted in it being passed though. His intervention was one of the reasons why it failed, but if it passes and Reform does end up reducing the Bloc Quebecois to political irrelevance, that could go a long way in marginalizing the extreme elements of Quebecois nationalism.
Not having Trudeau speak out against the Accord would help. However in the short term that actually galvanized support among the Premiers for the Accord, in the long term you'd also need Mulroney to stop shoving his foot in his mouth every time he tried to publicly drum up support or was even asked about Meech Lake in an interview. For sure he must avoid scandalously mentioning how he'd strategically scheduled the 'Last Supper' talks in the first week of June 1990 to pressure the premiers into accepting the final deal on the table, which pissed pretty much everyone off and convinced even people prepared to endorse the Accord (such as Chrétien) to reverse course.
I wonder if the collapse of the PCs would only be delayed before it eventually falls apart, though without the merger of the PCs and Canadian Alliance, at best, Canadian Alliance would be the only kind of conservative movement that will theoretically exist. Basically would the Canadian Alliance exist as the prototype version of the OTL People's Party of Canada, only without the potential infiltration by hard right figures?

This kind of sentiment is exactly how Western Alienation continues to persist, and I wouldn't be surprised if the West finds a way to become a surprise power broker if they continue to get pissed off. Heck, I could imagine a different version of the PPC or Maverick emerging as their kind of movement that could wield enough power to force the federal government to pay more attention to them. It's also a common sentiment among conservative voters in the West that Ontario and Quebec decide the elections, no matter how much Conservative votes are counted in the West.
No need for a new party when the Alliance will be right there to channel Western anger, heh. Indeed they would be seen overall as a hard-right but still somewhat mainstream and 'respectable' party, dominated by aggrieved Westerners but also functioning as a vehicle for more generally socially conservative culture-warrior types and populists of a right-wing bent (note that the Alliance's 2000 platform included a direct democracy plank, greenlighting referenda on issues where at least 3% of the population had signed a petition) with little room for kooks like the 'semen retention warrior' who ran as the PPC candidate in the riding next to mine last election. Which is a good thing obviously, the latter category aren't just unelectable but would outright make the party they belong to look like a completely unserious joke to the public.
I think that in order for Meech Lake to become a successful thing, though a successful poisoned chalice for Canadian politics would have been for one of the other significant issues that was raised (ie: Senate reform) to be successful. I could see someone from the Western Canadian region in addition to Harper being a potential figure as well. I also wonder if a stronger Reform/Alliance movement might also translate to provincial successes, especially in BC where we had a SoCred government for a while, until the constant scandals drove the BC SoCreds to collapse.
Progress on Senate reform would go a long way to keeping Manitoba on board with the Accord. As to alternative leaders for the Alliance, other than the aforementioned Harper and Deborah Grey you could also just roll with Stockwell Day, who was the party's historical leader for the 2000 election and a banner-bearer for the evangelical social conservatives: he'll need to avoid making so many gaffes on the campaign trail and put in a better performance that year (perhaps driving the PCs out of the West altogether and winning a couple more seats in BC & rural Ontario), but if he can do that he should be able to stay on as leader - Harper lost his first election in '04 but managed to hang on after all. From there he must make steady inroads into rural Ontario and (even more difficult) Quebec & also cannibalize the PCs election after election until an opening to topple the Liberals finally presents itself. (I don't think Preston Manning had a shot - he had too much baggage to enjoy any significant appeal to Ontario, where the Alliance correctly identified a need to branch out, and got crushed in the 2000 leadership election by Day historically)

Having the BC Socreds elect a different leader than Bill Vander Zalm or Vander Zalm himself not stumbling into so many scandals, thereby keeping them competitive in the longer term, would strengthen a Day-run Alliance and indeed Day's position within his party, considering that Day's own seat was in BC. I don't know how tenable the BC Socreds' position would have remained in the decades to come but having them survive to become the de-facto provincial wing of the Alliance and keep BC an Alliance bastion or at least competitive for the Alliance can only help.
 
'No Jewish Monotheism'.

"Holy long-lived Semitic polytheism, Batman!"
I've raised some thoughts pertinent to this matter in conversation with yourself and @CastilloVerde recently. Below, I'll repeat my earlier comments, slightly edited here and there to eliminate tangents that are irrelevant to this matter, and to clarify some points that make little sense without the context in which I was originally writing.

Suffice to say, my general thesis was (and remains) that there existed such a thing as a Canaanite High Culture (in the macro-historical sense), which first coalesced from is pre-cultural/pre-formative background around 1500 BC. I view the Jewish people as an off-shoot of this culture, which separated itself religiously-- and in so doing became a separate cultural entity unto itself. The process of religious separation was far more gradual and took place far later than the traditional Jewish histories and scriptures (all codified in later ages!) would have you believe.



The United Monarchy of Israel was established under Saul, c. 1037 BC, and thereafter achieved its greatest extent under David. As we know, this United Monarchy split into two states (Samaria in the North and Judah in the South) c. 930 BC. But that's not what's really important here. The important thing is that these Israelites have certainly made a mark on history by introducing a tradition of monotheism that is (a-historically) called "Abrahamic". The truth is that the Israelite evolution towards monotheism was very slow and gradual. Indeed, the two Israelite states seem to have had two different "main gods". In Samaria, they considered El their national deity, and in Judah, it was the more obscure Yahweh. In both cases, these gods were considered the "first among the gods", but certainly not to the exclusion of other gods. The period following 930 BC was thus one of emerging henotheism among the Israelites.

Soon enough, however, a religious syncretism arose, and Yahweh and El were conflated, becoming viewed (in the public consciousness) as always having been one and the same. During that same period, "Yahwism" emerged-- that being an a-historical term for the religious insistence on Yahweh as by far the most important deity, to the detriment of the older Canaanite gods. It is in that context that the Israelites became true henotheists (and thereby began to separate, culturally, from their neighbours, e.g. the Phoenicians and other Canaanite nations).

In this same period, Tyre (the mother-city of future Carthage) became the most prominent city of Phoenicia, and ultimately Priest-King Ithobaal I (r. 879 BC - 847 BC) united Phoenicia under his authority. Now, Ithobaal had a daughter, named Jezebel. If that name sparks negative associations, that's mostly because of the religious developments that I just described. Because Jezebel was married to King Ahab of the Samarian Kingdom, who ruled c.  871 BC - c. 852 BC. A period of time that falls entirely within the life of the prophet Elijah. Who was one of the major players in the push for "Yahwism". And Jezebel, being from Phoenicia, upheld the faith of her father, i.e. the traditional Canaanite religion. (Among other things, she brought priests and priestesses of Asherah with her to the Samarian court.) So she became known in Jewish scripture as an evil vixen. This is all indicative of building religious tension in the Canaanite world.

In the following century, Yahwism took on more extreme forms, moving towards a tendency of exclusively worshipping Yahweh. Involved in this process was the prophet Hosea, who lived in the 8th century BC. At this point, the Israelite religion fully separated from the Canaanite religion. This was quite possibly helped along by the fact that during the period we're discussing, the Neo-Assyrian Empire invaded. During the Neo-Assyrian period, the Israelites held greater autonomy than the Phoenicians. The Israelites were purely clients of the empire, and largely independent. The Phoenicians, conversely, were vassalised in a more formal manner. In this turbulent period, the already mounting division between the Israelites and the Phoenicians appears to have become very... final.

In effect, the Israelites culturally seceded from the Canaanite High Culture, and became a wholly separate culture. And then they were conquered by the Babylonians, who ill-treated them. But this seems to have hardened the Israelite resolve, and solidified their evolution towards uncompromising monotheism. However, we know for a fact that up to the start of the Babylonian period, the Israelites were still henotheists (apparently the majority view), and that more traditional polytheism still existed among the populace. Indeed, it is for this reason that Jeremiah and Ezekiel (following the example of Hosea) preached against this practice, and in favour of what we now term "Yahwism". Some argue that Jewish monotheism only became truly codified as the unquestionable position by the time of the Maccabees, although it should be noted that this is a pretty radical take on the chronology of events.



This tends to imply that the Akhaimenid POD that @Buba proposed is probably too far on the late side. A POD that wholly averts the Babylonian captivity might do the trick, and result in the preservation of Yahweh-centric henotheism among the Israelites. (Conceivably alongside Asherah as His queen in the Northern tradition of Samaria.) I'm inclined to think, however, that this would also turn out to be "just" a delay (albeit a substantial one). The pre-existing trend was towards the worship of Yahweh, even more to the exclusion of all others. I don't see that trend just reversing. (To clarify: it can be done, I'm certain, but would require a lot of outside pressure, which in turn demands some sort of earlier POD beyond the matter at hand.)

As such, I'd argue that you're much better off with an earlier POD, especially if you aim to avoid Jewish monotheism altogether (meaning in both Samaria and Judah). I think that a different Neo-Assyrian conquest would do the trick. Specifically, I propose a scenario in which the Neo-Assyrians treat the whole Levant as one region, which is somewhat less directly vassalised than Phoenicia was in OTL, and somewhat more directly suborned than the Israelite kingdoms were. The key point is that they administratively organise it as one cohesive unit. That would presumably prevent much of OTL's religious divergence, and offers a plausible alternative future for the Canaanites. One that sees henotheism decline instead flourish. Ideally... have Elijah strangled early on. Have Ithobaal installed as a vassal king who governs over all Canaanites on behalf of the Neo-Assyrians (becoming the regional overlord to the kings of Samaria and Judah as well), and see Jezebel remembered as a good queen in Samaria, whose religious preferences won out in the end.
 
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Not having Trudeau speak out against the Accord would help. However in the short term that actually galvanized support among the Premiers for the Accord, in the long term you'd also need Mulroney to stop shoving his foot in his mouth every time he tried to publicly drum up support or was even asked about Meech Lake in an interview. For sure he must avoid scandalously mentioning how he'd strategically scheduled the 'Last Supper' talks in the first week of June 1990 to pressure the premiers into accepting the final deal on the table, which pissed pretty much everyone off and convinced even people prepared to endorse the Accord (such as Chrétien) to reverse course.

No need for a new party when the Alliance will be right there to channel Western anger, heh. Indeed they would be seen overall as a hard-right but still somewhat mainstream and 'respectable' party, dominated by aggrieved Westerners but also functioning as a vehicle for more generally socially conservative culture-warrior types and populists of a right-wing bent (note that the Alliance's 2000 platform included a direct democracy plank, greenlighting referenda on issues where at least 3% of the population had signed a petition) with little room for kooks like the 'semen retention warrior' who ran as the PPC candidate in the riding next to mine last election. Which is a good thing obviously, the latter category aren't just unelectable but would outright make the party they belong to look like a completely unserious joke to the public.

Progress on Senate reform would go a long way to keeping Manitoba on board with the Accord. As to alternative leaders for the Alliance, other than the aforementioned Harper and Deborah Grey you could also just roll with Stockwell Day, who was the party's historical leader for the 2000 election and a banner-bearer for the evangelical social conservatives: he'll need to avoid making so many gaffes on the campaign trail and put in a better performance that year (perhaps driving the PCs out of the West altogether and winning a couple more seats in BC & rural Ontario), but if he can do that he should be able to stay on as leader - Harper lost his first election in '04 but managed to hang on after all. From there he must make steady inroads into rural Ontario and (even more difficult) Quebec & also cannibalize the PCs election after election until an opening to topple the Liberals finally presents itself. (I don't think Preston Manning had a shot - he had too much baggage to enjoy any significant appeal to Ontario, where the Alliance correctly identified a need to branch out, and got crushed in the 2000 leadership election by Day historically)

Having the BC Socreds elect a different leader than Bill Vander Zalm or Vander Zalm himself not stumbling into so many scandals, thereby keeping them competitive in the longer term, would strengthen a Day-run Alliance and indeed Day's position within his party, considering that Day's own seat was in BC. I don't know how tenable the BC Socreds' position would have remained in the decades to come but having them survive to become the de-facto provincial wing of the Alliance and keep BC an Alliance bastion or at least competitive for the Alliance can only help.
I could only think of Grace McCarthy as the only suitable alternative to Vander Zalm as a potential candidate, or BC could end up with an earlier NDP provincial government, if only to wake the BC SoCreds up to a walking disaster Vander Zalm is. Basically TTL's Bob Skelly would do what OTL Rachel Notley would do in 2015. A SoCred defeat in 1986 could ironically give them a more breathing room to reorganize the party. And how was Preston Manning a walking disaster though?
 
I could only think of Grace McCarthy as the only suitable alternative to Vander Zalm as a potential candidate, or BC could end up with an earlier NDP provincial government, if only to wake the BC SoCreds up to a walking disaster Vander Zalm is. Basically TTL's Bob Skelly would do what OTL Rachel Notley would do in 2015. A SoCred defeat in 1986 could ironically give them a more breathing room to reorganize the party. And how was Preston Manning a walking disaster though?
McCarthy looks like a pretty good alternative, remarkable that she was passed over for Vander Zalm and then Johnston historically tbh.

I didn't say Manning was a disaster, just that he wouldn't be able to appeal to voters in Ontario and the rest of the East. My understanding is that by the '90s he had too strongly entrenched his reputation as a partisan for Western interests - notably despite increasing their seat count in the '97 election, Reform actually got completely shut out of Ontario (where they lost their solitary seat, Simcoe-Grey, even before the election proper due to it being split into two additional ridings and their incumbent MP not standing for re-election) and Quebec despite putting in their most serious push in both provinces, while even Day at least did a little better in 2000. Reform/the Alliance can't form government without managing a breakthrough in Ontario and the provinces still further east, and unfortunately Manning doesn't seem to be the guy who could pull it off.
 
uffice to say, my general thesis was (and remains) that there existed such a thing as a Canaanite High Culture (in the macro-historical sense), which first coalesced from is pre-cultural/pre-formative background around 1500 BC. I view the Jewish people as an off-shoot of this culture, which separated itself religiously-- and in so doing became a separate cultural entity unto itself.

As such, I'd argue that you're much better off with an earlier POD, especially if you aim to avoid Jewish monotheism altogether (meaning in both Samaria and Judah).

These don't tally. If you accept your first thesis any Israel that doesn't at least practice henotheism for an extended period is not an ethnic group distinct from the canaanites and thus cannot be a polytheistic Israel.
 
These don't tally. If you accept your first thesis any Israel that doesn't at least practice henotheism for an extended period is not an ethnic group distinct from the canaanites and thus cannot be a polytheistic Israel.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I think you're confusing (and incorrectly conflating) culture, ethnicity and religion.
 
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I think you're confusing (and incorrectly conflating) culture, ethnicity and religion.
Your thesis as I read it is that the religious division caused the cultural division. Since you implicitly reject the Exodus narrative there would never have been an ethnic division.
 
The last idea by @Zyobot made me wonder ...

"Canaanites beat off Hebrew invaders, repel them into the steppes beyond the Jordan River, where they get wiped out by some other semi-nomads."

No major changes until 300 AD or so?
 
Your thesis as I read it is that the religious division caused the cultural division. Since you implicitly reject the Exodus narrative there would never have been an ethnic division.
None of what you say here makes any sense to me. I'm afraid you've either completely misunderstood my original post, or you're phrasing your criticism so confusingly that I have no earthly idea what you're getting at.
 
'AHC: A Hungarian annexation of Wallachia'

Apparently the Hungarians attacked Wallachia in 1330 but got defeated by the Wallachians:


Could there ever be any kind of deal between the Ottomans and Hungarians where the Hungarians get Wallachia in exchange for a Hungaro-Ottoman alliance or something like that?
 
He might run in 1976 in this TL and have decent, but not guaranteed, odds of winning that year.

Assuming the POD doesn’t butterfly Watergate, Nixon’s resignation, and Ford’s blundersome presidency from happening on schedule, that is.

Of course, Dick was bound to get caught sooner or later, so a Watergate-esque scandal sometime during his first or second term? That could very well be, which Kennedy — unsullied by Chappaquiddick ITTL — would no doubt hammer on in any campaign he launches.
 
Assuming the POD doesn’t butterfly Watergate, Nixon’s resignation, and Ford’s blundersome presidency from happening on schedule, that is.

Of course, Dick was bound to get caught sooner or later, so a Watergate-esque scandal sometime during his first or second term? That could very well be, which Kennedy — unsullied by Chappaquiddick ITTL — would no doubt hammer on in any campaign he launches.

I think if Watergate happens and is still exposed then its pretty certain the Democrats would win in 1976. The question for a Ted K run would probably be if he could get the nomination that year?
 
'AHC: Make FDR Lose In A Landslide'.

Crushing him in 1932 or '36 is wishful thinking, and while he seemed to be losing steam by 1940, having him lose in a blowout then is also a stretch. Losing in '44, I can halfway entertain, though trouncing him by McGovern '72, Carter '80, or Mondale '84 levels is where the "challenge" part of AHC comes in. 🧐
 
'AHC: Make FDR Lose In A Landslide'.

Crushing him in 1932 or '36 is wishful thinking, and while he seemed to be losing steam by 1940, having him lose in a blowout then is also a stretch. Losing in '44, I can halfway entertain, though trouncing him by McGovern '72, Carter '80, or Mondale '84 levels is where the "challenge" part of AHC comes in. 🧐

He did lose in a landslide as the 1920 Democratic VP nominee.
 
That's... clearly not what I'm after, and I think you knew that from the get-go. ;)

Have FDR live until 1948 and run again that year and lose in a landslide like Winston Churchill did in Britain in 1945 since the American people would conclude that the man who led them during the Great Depression and WWII was not the same man whom they would want leading the country at a time of peace and prosperity.
 
Have him live until 1948 and run again that year and lose in a landslide like Winston Churchill did in Britain in 1945 since the American people would conclude that the man who led them during the Great Depression and WWII was not the same man whom they would want leading the country at a time of peace and prosperity.

Well, he did die of a cerebral hemorrhage just a few months into his last term IOTL, so coupled with his irreversibly deteriorating health, the odds he has another health scare that at least kills his chances of reelection in '48 (even if not FDR itself) are more than worth betting on.

At that point, I doubt he'd be remembered quite as fondly as IOTL, due to a greater perception of him as an aspiring President for Life who refused to call it quits and ultimately devolved into wheelchair-bound Biden by the end, though whether the next administration (which will almost certainly be GOP) uses his stubbornness as pretext to roll back the New Deal itself is another story. Probably wouldn't help FDR's image if it happened, though, depending on exactly where the next president falls between Ike's "New Dealer lite" and Taft's "Old Right bigwig".
 
Well, he did die of a cerebral hemorrhage just a few months into his last term IOTL, so coupled with his irreversibly deteriorating health, the odds he has another health scare that at least kills his chances of reelection in '48 (even if not FDR itself) are more than worth betting on.

At that point, I doubt he'd be remembered quite as fondly as IOTL, due to a greater perception of him as an aspiring President for Life who refused to call it quits and ultimately devolved into wheelchair-bound Biden by the end, though whether the next administration (which will almost certainly be GOP) uses his stubbornness as pretext to roll back the New Deal itself is another story.

I doubt that the New Deal will be rolled back since it will likely be too entrenched by then. Ike didn't try to roll it back, after all.
 

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