Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[CastilloVerde]

‘Uncommon AH Tropes and Story Ideas’.

By the way, I probably wasn't the clearest when I said "Uncommon AH Tropes and Story Ideas", seeing as I wasn't really after exotic PODs as much this time. Rather, I was thinking unique world-building and authorial decision-making writers might integrate into their TLs — regardless of what the base idea is.

Some ideas:

AH cartography: Most timelines rarely include maps. Even fewer feature detailed cartogrphy. Cartography is great because this allow the reader to get a better understanding of the scenario and the ATL world simply by looking at a map.

Original artwork: Similar to above. But as the cliché goes, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Extended description of AH developments in culture, architecture, religion, etc.: This is appropriate for any TL, but more so for TLs with a POD before the modern period. Any TL with ATL descriptions of these, quite frankly, are much better to immerse myself. I like to read about alternative cultural developments. Improved world-building makes me more interested to read a TL so much more. Most TLs, instead, focus primarily on the military and political aspects of the ATL, which is understandable since that's how much of history is presented in popular works. However, to me, there is something "missing" from the ATL if the story is only about war and politics. It feels incomplete in some ways. I'm not saying that TLs only about war and politics are bad, I simply wish more TLs could discuss other aspects of the world besides war and politics.

For instance, maybe some AH colanging, in which authors literally create languages that either never emerged or developed quite differently IOTL, such as fleshing out how a more "Germanic" English — or, I suppose, "Anglish" — might look, in a world where the Normans never invaded England. Or, perhaps, writing the TL from the perspective of people literally living in that world, such as "False Documents" TLs that compile lots of in-universe memoirs, history books, and other documents without relying on omniscient, third-person narration. Those sorts of things was what I was getting at, so apologies if I was unclear earlier.

I think why these ideas (along with the other ideas I listed earlier) are uncommon is because these are either rather difficult to create or too time-consuming to do much. Creating another language, for example, is well beyond the patience of most people. I feel the same way! These aspects would certainly improve the world-building and make the AH world feel more "complete", I completely agree. But, most authors are simply hobbyists. People, unfortunately, simply do not have the time to add these other details so they focus on telling the main story.

 

[Zyobot]

Many thanks for your slew of ideas, @CastilloVerde!

On the whole, I'm tempted to agree. Like you, I can understand authors focusing most on politics and war — and, as I'd add, certain social movements — for the sake of simplicity or because they don't know enough about the other subjects you mentioned to do much worldbuilding beyond that. But yes, there's certainly something "missing" in TLs that don't incorporate those, beyond the barest and most token differences sprinkled in here and there.

That's part of why so many authors write post-1900 AH, I imagine, since they can more or less "hold constant" architecture, language, religion, and other aspects of daily life you mentioned that are "byproducts" of history as it was IOTL. For really early PODs in which the butterflies compound as we get closer to ATL present, though? Yeah, not so much!

 

[ATP]

‘Carthage with the Size and Trade Networks of the British Empire’.

ROB hand-waves transoceanic sailing and other logistical concerns, as well as allowing people to suggest somewhat different “configurations” of territory than what the actual British Empire controlled — so long as it's multi-continental and adds up to a quarter of the world, of course.

Easy-peasy.They new Canaries and Madera,maybe Azores,too.So,they could go to Carribean and Brasil,too.
And,since phoenixians come around Africa,they could get South Africa and Madagascar,too.
And go to India that way,too.

Fun thing - they could do that,becouse they hide their maps from Romans,and killed anybody who try to go to Atlantic as long as they could.
And,when they could not do that anymore,they made fairy tales about monsters killing anybody who tried that.

 

[gral]

Something that I've wondered about, yet have nowhere near the knowledge to expand on that: No Kant. Considering Kant was one of the main fonts of liberal thought, what would fill the void? How much would liberal thought change?

 

[WolfBear]

Something that I've wondered about, yet have nowhere near the knowledge to expand on that: No Kant. Considering Kant was one of the main fonts of liberal thought, what would fill the void? How much would liberal thought change?

Spinoza is more popular?

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

"PC: Canada's Meech Lake Accord Successful"

What would have happened to Canadian politics if Meech Lake Accord was successful, and not an abject failure that nearly torn Canada apart with the 1995 Quebec independence referendum? Though this is close to me currently, as Cold War Canadian politics is something that I haven't really brushed up on since high school.

 

[Circle of Willis]

"PC: Canada's Meech Lake Accord Successful"

What would have happened to Canadian politics if Meech Lake Accord was successful, and not an abject failure that nearly torn Canada apart with the 1995 Quebec independence referendum? Though this is close to me currently, as Cold War Canadian politics is something that I haven't really brushed up on since high school.

Would've alienated & pissed off the Western provinces even more while only temporarily appeasing Quebec. Quebecois nationalists like Jacques Parizeau would never have been appeased by anything less than the 'distinct society' clause being given precedence over the Charter of Rights & Freedoms (essentially putting Quebec above the law and allowing them to, say, ignore Supreme Court cases ruling that they can't ban English-language advertisements in Quebec) and would still split off from the Parti Quebecois to form the more hard-line nationalist Bloc Quebecois. However they'd be weakened for a good while and the Quebec independence referenda might be put off into the 2000s or 2010s.

The Western provinces already thought the Accord gave too much away to the Quebecois and not enough to them re: Senate reform, hence their reluctance (and ultimately, refusal in Manitoba's case) to ratify it. The Accord actually passing may well kill the Alberta Progressive Conservatives early by way of a provincial Alberta Reform Party toppling Don Getty (likely he'd be replaced as Premier by Deborah Grey or Stephen Harper, at the time both fresh rising stars rather than the stodgy old establishment fixtures they're best known as today).

And for all that, Mulroney's PCs will almost certainly still get slaughtered in 1993 - man burned public goodwill like no tomorrow, and Meech Lake passing wouldn't affect either the early '90s economic downturn or the implementation of the GST (which IMO were more important historically in sapping public support for the PCs than Meech Lake or Charlottetown's failures). Maybe the PCs would manage to stay above 20 seats rather than get knocked down to 2 though, and limp along into the late 00s/early 10s.

Basically, for all that Mulroney hoped the Meech Lake Accord would be the thing that saves the country and gets Quebec firmly on board with Trudeau's constitution, realistically it almost certainly was going to be just a bandaid solution in the end. Too many disparate interests and no way to appease them all, even without factoring in the First Nations and feminist activists critical of the Accord who were straight up impossible to make happy.

 

[Zyobot]

‘Wilhelm II Killed In German Revolution’.

 

[WolfBear]

‘Wilhelm II Killed In German Revolution’.

Have him try returning to Berlin instead of fleeing to the Netherlands at the end of WWI

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Would've alienated & pissed off the Western provinces even more while only temporarily appeasing Quebec. Quebecois nationalists like Jacques Parizeau would never have been appeased by anything less than the 'distinct society' clause being given precedence over the Charter of Rights & Freedoms (essentially putting Quebec above the law and allowing them to, say, ignore Supreme Court cases ruling that they can't ban English-language advertisements in Quebec) and would still split off from the Parti Quebecois to form the more hard-line nationalist Bloc Quebecois. However they'd be weakened for a good while and the Quebec independence referenda might be put off into the 2000s or 2010s.

The Western provinces already thought the Accord gave too much away to the Quebecois and not enough to them re: Senate reform, hence their reluctance (and ultimately, refusal in Manitoba's case) to ratify it. The Accord actually passing may well kill the Alberta Progressive Conservatives early by way of a provincial Alberta Reform Party toppling Don Getty (likely he'd be replaced as Premier by Deborah Grey or Stephen Harper, at the time both fresh rising stars rather than the stodgy old establishment fixtures they're best known as today).

And for all that, Mulroney's PCs will almost certainly still get slaughtered in 1993 - man burned public goodwill like no tomorrow, and Meech Lake passing wouldn't affect either the early '90s economic downturn or the implementation of the GST (which IMO were more important historically in sapping public support for the PCs than Meech Lake or Charlottetown's failures). Maybe the PCs would manage to stay above 20 seats rather than get knocked down to 2 though, and limp along into the late 00s/early 10s.

Basically, for all that Mulroney hoped the Meech Lake Accord would be the thing that saves the country and gets Quebec firmly on board with Trudeau's constitution, realistically it almost certainly was going to be just a bandaid solution in the end. Too many disparate interests and no way to appease them all, even without factoring in the First Nations and feminist activists critical of the Accord who were straight up impossible to make happy.

I would have assumed that there would be a lot of resentment in the West over Quebec wanting to make themselves above the law, and judging by how IOTL the Meech Lake Accord was more or less passed or failed, it might affect Quebec's ability to hold a referendum on their independence. If the economic downturn of the 90s went off a bit worse than OTL, that might force the Quebecois to suspend their plans for independence indefinitely, until their economy recovers long enough to hold said referendum.

I'd lean more towards Deborah Grey becoming Premier instead of Harper, and if things were bad enough for the PCs and Reform to never merge, that could change a lot within Canadian politics. Butterflies would also ensure that the most unpopular premier of Alberta in recent memory (Rachel Notley) would never become Premier in this scenario.

I also wonder if the collapse of the PCs would also kill off Kim Campbell's short tenure as Prime Minister after Mulroney as well, mostly because nothing of great value was lost or gained when she became Prime Minister, as she only lasted a few months before the 1993 elections that gave us Jean Chretien. On the other hand, would the complete collapse of Meech Lake also prevent the merger of Reform and the PCs into the OTL Conservative Party of Canada?

 

[Zyobot]

'No Jewish Monotheism'.

"Holy long-lived Semitic polytheism, Batman!"

 

[WolfBear]

'No Jewish Monotheism'.

"Holy long-lived Semitic polytheism, Batman!"

Have an earlier Jewish Messiah come who is actually accepted by all Jews (unlike Jesus in real life) and who confirms the traditional Jewish polytheistic faith?

 

[Buba]

'No Jewish Monotheism'.

Darius does not allow the Exiles to re-establish an autonomous Judean ethnoreligious polity. Hence Judeans will continue to worship JHW and his Asherah (however we understand Her) plus Whoever in High Places, and not the One and Only God at the One and Only Temple.
I do not know enough of the history of the original Izrael but I assume that the Southern Judean Heretics TM not rebuilding the Sacrilegious Temple in Jerusalem would prevent the Northern Tr00 strand of Moseism morphing into Samaritaism

 

[Bassoe]

'No Jewish Monotheism'.

"Holy long-lived Semitic polytheism, Batman!"

Have an earlier Jewish Messiah come who is actually accepted by all Jews (unlike Jesus in real life) and who confirms the traditional Jewish polytheistic faith?

Darius does not allow the Exiles to re-establish an autonomous Judean ethnoreligious polity. Hence Judeans will continue to worship JHW and his Asherah (however we understand Her) plus whatever in High Places, and not the One and Only God at the One and Only Temple.
I do not know enough of the history of the original Izrael but I assume that the Southern Judean Heretics TM not rebuilding the Sacrilegious Temple in Jerusalem would prevent the Northern Tr00 strand of Moseism morphing into Samaritaism

I think this was one of the alternate paths encountered in Stephen Dedman's From Whom All Blessings Flow* but I might be remembering wrong, it's been ages since I read it.

* Missionaries from multiple mutually contradictory alternative timelines arguing over which of them has the one true version of Christianity.

 

[stevep]

Have an earlier Jewish Messiah come who is actually accepted by all Jews (unlike Jesus in real life) and who confirms the traditional Jewish polytheistic faith?

That would probably mean revolt as occurred in 66-73 AD and ultimately their destruction. If it butterflies Jesus then you could end up with monotheism never emerging or at a later point and different circumstances. Which would totally change world history in ways we could only guess at. You might end up with the Mediterranean world following the Chinese path with periodical collapses of ruling dynasties being restored by new ones if there's a strong enough sense of cultural identity.

 

[Circle of Willis]

I would have assumed that there would be a lot of resentment in the West over Quebec wanting to make themselves above the law, and judging by how IOTL the Meech Lake Accord was more or less passed or failed, it might affect Quebec's ability to hold a referendum on their independence. If the economic downturn of the 90s went off a bit worse than OTL, that might force the Quebecois to suspend their plans for independence indefinitely, until their economy recovers long enough to hold said referendum.

I'd lean more towards Deborah Grey becoming Premier instead of Harper, and if things were bad enough for the PCs and Reform to never merge, that could change a lot within Canadian politics. Butterflies would also ensure that the most unpopular premier of Alberta in recent memory (Rachel Notley) would never become Premier in this scenario.

I also wonder if the collapse of the PCs would also kill off Kim Campbell's short tenure as Prime Minister after Mulroney as well, mostly because nothing of great value was lost or gained when she became Prime Minister, as she only lasted a few months before the 1993 elections that gave us Jean Chretien. On the other hand, would the complete collapse of Meech Lake also prevent the merger of Reform and the PCs into the OTL Conservative Party of Canada?

Well, the whole point of passing Meech Lake was to take the wind out of the souverainistes' sails, so passing it would do just that in the short-term at least. I would also expect Reform to beat the Bloc out for Official Opposition status in 1993, not the other way around as happened historically. While I do expect Quebec nationalists will push hard enough to get a referendum at some point, I wouldn't expect their success to come until ~2008 at the earliest, and quite possibly not well into the 2010s depending on how well the government in power at the time handles the Great Recession (Bush Sr. will have already broken his 'no new taxes' pledge by the time of Meech Lake's ratification, and considering that the recession's roots go back to Clinton...)

Kim Campbell's definitely screwed if (or rather when) the federal PCs fall, even if she avoids the disgrace of losing her own seat and her party dropping from 156 seats to 2 - a drop from 156 to 15-20 might sting a smidge less but it's still almost as horrible. However it would get the PC bigwigs to think that they have a better shot at rebounding, which in turn means no PC/Alliance (as Reform called itself later) merger, which means that the Liberal Party's hegemony will remain entrenched for a good deal longer as the Canadian right remains split and Paul Martin probably holds on through 2006 despite his ongoing feud with the Chrétien clique within his own party (although I still think he'd retire in '08, when he would turn 70).

On AH.com there's a lot of wish-fulfillment around the idea of the PCs managing a comeback federally, but I think that's just cope from Liberal/NDP voters who're going 'man wouldn't it be nice to have an opposition party that's basically the same as ours and to keep locking the filthy reactionary hicks in the West out of power'. The reality was that the PCs were completely gutted in our 1993 and basically never recovered, not least because their bench was so crap that they had to bring the hilariously scandal-ridden Jean Charest and then pull Joe Clark (the quintessential Red Tory 'dignified loser' whose primary achievements in a pitifully short term as PM were to refuse to work with the Quebec-based Socreds because they were icky far-right-wingers in his view, try to impose a gas tax which everyone hated and almost immediately give 24 Sussex back to Trudeau) out of retirement to lead them. While they'd be marginally less gutted ITL, they would still most definitely be a spent force whose voterbase no longer has any real reason to stick with them outside of partisan loyalty, with the Liberals increasingly making a play for the left-leaning 'Red Tories' while right-leaning 'Blue Tories' have a more logical home in the rapidly growing Reform Party, and I can't think of any miracle worker in their ranks with the chops to possibly turn that around.

So realistically, the PCs will almost certainly continue to wither on the vine, suffering continuous defections to the more energetic Reform/Alliance and putting in a declining performance with every election, but always taking away just enough votes from Reform to keep the Liberals in power probably until the mid-2010s. If anything this decline will be accelerated if they elect the anti-unite-the-right candidate, David Orchard, in 2003 - Orchard was an utterly out-of-touch political nonentity with zero experience on any level of government or appeal to any PC voter living outside of Ottawa's suburbs (what he did have was a whole lot of unwarranted self-importance though), and his views were so indistinguishable from the Liberals that he literally became a Liberal himself after the PC/Alliance merger IRL. Reform might still be able to peel away some PC voters & MPs by rebranding as the Canadian Alliance, as they did historically, but I don't see them being able to topple the Liberals until the mid-2010s probably, when the PCs most likely finally going splat against rock bottom + public disgust with the Grits' rampant Chrétien-era corruption and unresolved infighting between the Chrétien & Martin factions of the party creates the right conditions for them to sweep into power.

This Alliance would be a more firmly right-wing force than the Tories under Harper were historically, backed by an even angrier & more alienated West, and their ascent after ~30 years of Liberal rule would mark the final death knell for the PCs who I'd imagine will lose all of their remaining seats and linger as an extraparliamentary joke party or just outright disband after ~2015. Tl;dr their slightly less awful losses in 1993 will have deluded the PCs into unwisely choosing the path of a slow and agonizing death from advancing gangrene rather than biting the bullet, merging with Reform/Alliance and trying to subvert the Conservative Party from within. Oh, and also an Alliance government is also a very likely or even certain trigger for Quebecois attempts at secession, considering they'd basically be the avatar of Western antipathy toward Quebec (made all the stronger by Meech Lake passing and giving Quebec privileges which make Alberta et al. sick).

 

[Zyobot]

‘Gary Hart Gets The 1984 Democratic Nomination’.

Now onto facing Reagan in the general — and hopefully, losing by way smaller margins than Walter Mondale did!

 

[WolfBear]

‘Gary Hart Gets The 1984 Democratic Nomination’.

Now onto facing Reagan in the general — and hopefully, losing by way smaller margins than Walter Mondale did!

Have Mondale choke to death on some delicious lutefisk before the primaries?

 

[WolfBear]

Lutefisk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

'AHC: Have Muslims reject Iconoclasm just like Christians eventually did'

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

Well, the whole point of passing Meech Lake was to take the wind out of the souverainistes' sails, so passing it would do just that in the short-term at least. I would also expect Reform to beat the Bloc out for Official Opposition status in 1993, not the other way around as happened historically. While I do expect Quebec nationalists will push hard enough to get a referendum at some point, I wouldn't expect their success to come until ~2008 at the earliest, and quite possibly not well into the 2010s depending on how well the government in power at the time handles the Great Recession (Bush Sr. will have already broken his 'no new taxes' pledge by the time of Meech Lake's ratification, and considering that the recession's roots go back to Clinton...)

I wonder if Pierre Trudeau not intervening in the Accord would have actually resulted in it being passed though. His intervention was one of the reasons why it failed, but if it passes and Reform does end up reducing the Bloc Quebecois to political irrelevance, that could go a long way in marginalizing the extreme elements of Quebecois nationalism.

Kim Campbell's definitely screwed if (or rather when) the federal PCs fall, even if she avoids the disgrace of losing her own seat and her party dropping from 156 seats to 2 - a drop from 156 to 15-20 might sting a smidge less but it's still almost as horrible. However it would get the PC bigwigs to think that they have a better shot at rebounding, which in turn means no PC/Alliance (as Reform called itself later) merger, which means that the Liberal Party's hegemony will remain entrenched for a good deal longer as the Canadian right remains split and Paul Martin probably holds on through 2006 despite his ongoing feud with the Chrétien clique within his own party (although I still think he'd retire in '08, when he would turn 70).

I wonder if the collapse of the PCs would only be delayed before it eventually falls apart, though without the merger of the PCs and Canadian Alliance, at best, Canadian Alliance would be the only kind of conservative movement that will theoretically exist. Basically would the Canadian Alliance exist as the prototype version of the OTL People's Party of Canada, only without the potential infiltration by hard right figures?

On AH.com there's a lot of wish-fulfillment around the idea of the PCs managing a comeback federally, but I think that's just cope from Liberal/NDP voters who're going 'man wouldn't it be nice to have an opposition party that's basically the same as ours and to keep locking the filthy reactionary hicks in the West out of power'. The reality was that the PCs were completely gutted in our 1993 and basically never recovered, not least because their bench was so crap that they had to bring the hilariously scandal-ridden Jean Charest and then pull Joe Clark (the quintessential Red Tory 'dignified loser' whose primary achievements in a pitifully short term as PM were to refuse to work with the Quebec-based Socreds because they were icky far-right-wingers in his view, try to impose a gas tax which everyone hated and almost immediately give 24 Sussex back to Trudeau) out of retirement to lead them. While they'd be marginally less gutted ITL, they would still most definitely be a spent force whose voterbase no longer has any real reason to stick with them outside of partisan loyalty, with the Liberals increasingly making a play for the left-leaning 'Red Tories' while right-leaning 'Blue Tories' have a more logical home in the rapidly growing Reform Party, and I can't think of any miracle worker in their ranks with the chops to possibly turn that around.

This kind of sentiment is exactly how Western Alienation continues to persist, and I wouldn't be surprised if the West finds a way to become a surprise power broker if they continue to get pissed off. Heck, I could imagine a different version of the PPC or Maverick emerging as their kind of movement that could wield enough power to force the federal government to pay more attention to them. It's also a common sentiment among conservative voters in the West that Ontario and Quebec decide the elections, no matter how much Conservative votes are counted in the West.

So realistically, the PCs will almost certainly continue to wither on the vine, suffering continuous defections to the more energetic Reform/Alliance and putting in a declining performance with every election, but always taking away just enough votes from Reform to keep the Liberals in power probably until the mid-2010s. If anything this decline will be accelerated if they elect the anti-unite-the-right candidate, David Orchard, in 2003 - Orchard was an utterly out-of-touch political nonentity with zero experience on any level of government or appeal to any PC voter living outside of Ottawa's suburbs (what he did have was a whole lot of unwarranted self-importance though), and his views were so indistinguishable from the Liberals that he literally became a Liberal himself after the PC/Alliance merger IRL. Reform might still be able to peel away some PC voters & MPs by rebranding as the Canadian Alliance, as they did historically, but I don't see them being able to topple the Liberals until the mid-2010s probably, when the PCs most likely finally going splat against rock bottom + public disgust with the Grits' rampant Chrétien-era corruption and unresolved infighting between the Chrétien & Martin factions of the party creates the right conditions for them to sweep into power.

This Alliance would be a more firmly right-wing force than the Tories under Harper were historically, backed by an even angrier & more alienated West, and their ascent after ~30 years of Liberal rule would mark the final death knell for the PCs who I'd imagine will lose all of their remaining seats and linger as an extraparliamentary joke party or just outright disband after ~2015. Tl;dr their slightly less awful losses in 1993 will have deluded the PCs into unwisely choosing the path of a slow and agonizing death from advancing gangrene rather than biting the bullet, merging with Reform/Alliance and trying to subvert the Conservative Party from within. Oh, and also an Alliance government is also a very likely or even certain trigger for Quebecois attempts at secession, considering they'd basically be the avatar of Western antipathy toward Quebec (made all the stronger by Meech Lake passing and giving Quebec privileges which make Alberta et al. sick).

I think that in order for Meech Lake to become a successful thing, though a successful poisoned chalice for Canadian politics would have been for one of the other significant issues that was raised (ie: Senate reform) to be successful. I could see someone from the Western Canadian region in addition to Harper being a potential figure as well. I also wonder if a stronger Reform/Alliance movement might also translate to provincial successes, especially in BC where we had a SoCred government for a while, until the constant scandals drove the BC SoCreds to collapse.