Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[Zyobot]

That would depend on just how strong the pressure and urge to subsequently "cancel" them for this is, I suppose. Kyrsten Sinema might be politically punished for her opposition to abolishing the filibuster, for instance.

Today, yes.

Back then? Well, I’m not sure how easy it was to leak private remarks compared to nowadays, so I don’t know that Blue Nixon would be cancelled so easily.

‘Russia With China’s Population Size’.

 

[WolfBear]

‘Russia With China’s Population Size’.

Russia would be much harder to boss around by Western countries. Though the question would be who these extra Russians are. Slavs, Chinese, Muslims, Hindus, et cetera.

 

[Zyobot]

Russia would be much harder to boss around by Western countries. Though the question would be who these extra Russians are. Slavs, Chinese, Muslims, Hindus, et cetera.

So, no way of multiplying its native population without conquering its neighbors, then? I'm not really placing a limit on how far back the PoD is, if having it happen after 1900 isn't easily doable or something.

 

[WolfBear]

So, no way of multiplying its native population without conquering its neighbors, then? I'm not really placing a limit on how far back the PoD is, if having it happen after 1900 isn't easily doable or something.

Russia could have something like 400 million Slavs right now if it avoided its extreme 20th century demographic devastation and permanently kept both Ukraine and Belarus, but anything beyond that would have to come from non-Slavic ethnic groups.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

‘Russia With China’s Population Size’.

Well, for starters preventing the Bolshevik Revolution from breaking out would be an obvious solution, as the ensuing Russian Civil War, the famines, and WWII did everything to screw with Russian demographics. I might also just say preventing Stolypin from getting assassinated would also go a long way with ensuing the emergence of a Russian middle class that might form the backbone of the Russian economy, although I'm not sure if that would also translate to better demographics.

Including Ukraine and Belarus would also be an obvious thing, but maybe perhaps a slight small boost in the populations of Russia's ethnic minorities might also help. Sans Central Asia, Tatars are the second largest ethnic group within Russia. If you include Central Asia into the mix, Kazakhs would instead be the second largest ethnic group.

 

[WolfBear]

Well, for starters preventing the Bolshevik Revolution from breaking out would be an obvious solution, as the ensuing Russian Civil War, the famines, and WWII did everything to screw with Russian demographics. I might also just say preventing Stolypin from getting assassinated would also go a long way with ensuing the emergence of a Russian middle class that might form the backbone of the Russian economy, although I'm not sure if that would also translate to better demographics.

Including Ukraine and Belarus would also be an obvious thing, but maybe perhaps a slight small boost in the populations of Russia's ethnic minorities might also help. Sans Central Asia, Tatars are the second largest ethnic group within Russia. If you include Central Asia into the mix, Kazakhs would instead be the second largest ethnic group.

You could get a good number more Kazakhs in the present-day if you will avoid the 1930s famine that killed 38% of their total population. But even with this, you'll probably get no more than 100 million or so Central Asians. When you'll combine this with 400 million Slavs, you'll get around 500 million people in Greater Russia. Going significantly beyond that would probably require massive immigration to Russia. Maybe South Asia could be a viable giant immigrant destination to Russia? And/or East Asia, perhaps? Especially China.

@Zyobot 'AHC: Have a country with roughly the same borders as the ISIS Caliphate at its peak, but with much more moderate leadership'

 

[Skallagrim]

'AHC: Have a country with roughly the same borders as the ISIS Caliphate at its peak, but with much more moderate leadership'

Have the French create a multi-cultural Super-Lebanon which includes OTL Lebanon, the coastal region of OTL Syria to OTL Lebanon's North, and the region around Damascus. On the other side, have the British retain Shi'a majority Mesopotamia. And either have an independent Kurdistan, or have either the Turks of the Persians in control over that region.

The area in-between all that is roughly similar to what ISIS held at its zenith, and would just be a run-of-the-mill Sunni-majority state. Being land-locked, it may end up being pretty reliant on the good will of the neighbours. The obvious potential 'best friend' is Jordan, and the best way to do that is to have a relative of the King of Jordan on the throne of this country ("Syraq"?).

Although there's always potential for religious radicals staging a revolution, the very fact that your sea access relies on the good will of the monarch next door, who is a relative of your own monarch, entails that it's unwise to depose your monarch. It would be a bad move, economically. Religious nuts may not care, but plenty of fence-sitters will side with the King's existing government (even if they don't like him) out of practical considerations.

 

[WolfBear]

Have the French create a multi-cultural Super-Lebanon which includes OTL Lebanon, the coastal region of OTL Syria to OTL Lebanon's North, and the region around Damascus. On the other side, have the British retain Shi'a majority Mesopotamia. And either have an independent Kurdistan, or have either the Turks of the Persians in control over that region.

The area in-between all that is roughly similar to what ISIS held at its zenith, and would just be a run-of-the-mill Sunni-majority state. Being land-locked, it may end up being pretty reliant on the good will of the neighbours. The obvious potential 'best friend' is Jordan, and the best way to do that is to have a relative of the King of Jordan on the throne of this country ("Syraq"?).

Although there's always potential for religious radicals staging a revolution, the very fact that your sea access relies on the good will of the monarch next door, who is a relative of your own monarch, entails that it's unwise to depose your monarch. It would be a bad move, economically. Religious nuts may not care, but plenty of fence-sitters will side with the King's existing government (even if they don't like him) out of practical considerations.

Makes sense. BTW, any chance for a Syraq-Jordan union in this TL? Either as a federation or as a unitary state.

 

[Skallagrim]

Makes sense. BTW, any chance for a Syraq-Jordan union in this TL? Either as a federation or as a unitary state.

Could happen. I'm always a fan of personal union -- two countries, one monarch -- but that may just be me.

 

[WolfBear]

Could happen. I'm always a fan of personal union -- two countries, one monarch -- but that may just be me.

Zwei Reich, Ein Kaiser (oder Eine Kaiserin)!

'AHC: Make Muslims be as cool with Muhammad cartoons, including extremely offensive ones, as Christians are with Jesus cartoons, including extremely offensive ones'

 

[Zyobot]

‘Less Prevalent “Clean Wehrmacht” Myth’.

 

[Skallagrim]

‘Less Prevalent “Clean Wehrmacht” Myth’.

I'm imagining some scenario where the USSR does way worse, but the Western Allies still launch an invasion of Europe and ultimately have to fight their way to Berlin. It's a gruesome conflict that lasts longer. As with Japan, the Americans reason that dropping a nuke on Berlin will destroy any overnment that can capitulate, so they nuke another city first. Hitler flees into a hidden bunker and orders massive reprisals using chemical and biological weapons (which he held off on in OTL, mostly because he believed the Western Allies had greater stock-piles of that stuff).

Several mushroom clouds later, the war finally ends. And then the camps are discovered. Hitler's had more time to finish his work, leading to a considerably higher death toll. After the use of poison gas to kill countless American soldiers, this experience becomes conflated with the gas chambers in the minds of the general public. It's one big horror show, and Adolf has (of course) taken the coward's way out, same as in OTL.

So when the trials start, there is no more threatening USSR to consider (which was a reason to keep the German army propped up somewhat), and there is zero distinction in the public's eye between the Wehrmacht generals who ordered American soldiers to be shelled with nerve gas grenades and SS scum who rounded up civilians to gas by the dozens.

Morgenthau's plan will look fucking moderate compared to what happens next.

 

[Zyobot]

I'm imagining some scenario where the USSR does way worse, but the Western Allies still launch an invasion of Europe and ultimately have to fight their way to Berlin. It's a gruesome conflict that lasts longer. As with Japan, the Americans reason that dropping a nuke on Berlin will destroy any overnment that can capitulate, so they nuke another city first. Hitler flees into a hidden bunker and orders massive reprisals using chemical and biological weapons (which he held off on in OTL, mostly because he believed the Western Allies had greater stock-piles of that stuff).

Several mushroom clouds later, the war finally ends. And then the camps are discovered. Hitler's had more time to finish his work, leading to a considerably higher death toll. After the use of poison gas to kill countless American soldiers, this experience becomes conflated with the gas chambers in the minds of the general public. It's one big horror show, and Adolf has (of course) taken the coward's way out, same as in OTL.

So when the trials start, there is no more threatening USSR to consider (which was a reason to keep the German army propped up somewhat), and there is zero distinction in the public's eye between the Wehrmacht generals who ordered American soldiers to be shelled with nerve gas grenades and SS scum who rounded up civilians to gas by the dozens.

Morgenthau's plan will look fucking moderate compared to what happens next.

So... the W/Allies proceed with a Final Solution to the “German problem”? Because that sets an unsettling precedent for the post-war world, especially when too much blood has been spilled in an even nastier version of World War II, as is.

 

[Skallagrim]

So... the W/Allies proceed with a Final Solution to the “German problem”? Because that sets an unsettling precedent for the post-war world, especially when too much blood has been spilled in an even nastier version of World War II, as is.

Not really what I had in mind, at least not in the way you seem to imply. There would be a solution to the German problem, but it would boil down to:

-- Germany gets carved up into a dozen small countries, forbidden to ever re-unite, with local dialect being turned into the official language in every one. Standard German becomes forbidden to be taught in schools.

-- All the German states get fully de-industrialised and become (nearly) 100% agricultural.

-- None of the German states is allowed to have any kind of army ever again. Possibly, even their police forces are forever limited to non-lethal weapons.

-- Everyone with a rank higher than Hauptmann (or equivalent) gets the noose on sheer principle. Everyone who can be shown to have been complicit in the holocaust or in the manufacturing of nerve gas (and similar nastiness) also gets the noose.

-- Any attempt by any German state to circumvent these stipulations will result in immediate nuclear retaliation by the USA.

 

[Zyobot]

Not really what I had in mind, at least not in the way you seem to imply. There would be a solution to the German problem, but it would boil down to:

-- Germany gets carved up into a dozen small countries, forbidden to ever re-unite, with local dialect being turned into the official language in every one. Standard German becomes forbidden to be taught in schools.

-- All the German states get fully de-industrialised and become (nearly) 100% agricultural.

-- None of the German states is allowed to have any kind of army ever again. Possibly, even their police forces are forever limited to non-lethal weapons.

-- Everyone with a rank higher than Hauptmann (or equivalent) gets the noose on sheer principle. Everyone who can be shown to have been complicit in the holocaust or in the manufacturing of nerve gas (and similar nastiness) also gets the noose.

-- Any attempt by any German state to circumvent these stipulations will result in immediate nuclear retaliation by the USA.

Sounds pretty similar to the ultimate fate of AANW Germany, actually.

Never mind how Germans’ persisting guilt over World War II will haunt them far more here, with the Allies actively beating them over the head with it long after the war is over.

 

[Skallagrim]

Sounds pretty similar to the ultimate fate of AANW Germany, actually.

Never mind how Germans’ persisting guilt over World War II will haunt them far more here, with the Allies actively beating them over the head with it long after the war is over.

"It stops being evil, or else it gets the nuke again."

 

[Zyobot]

"It stops being evil, or else it gets the nuke again."

Then I suppose “Be a good, obedient bunch of vassal states!” whose members punish rogues who step out of line before the nuclear powers can bomb them into oblivion is the only choice here.

‘Weakest 1980 GOP Nominee’. (Yes, I know Carter was crushing Reagan in initial polling, even though that reversed itself in time for the actual election.)

 

[Earl]

Morgenthau's plan will look fucking moderate compared to what happens next.

I don't necessarily see that. I mean, the US had considerable ill will towards the Japanese but we propped them up. I could see a very thorough demilitarization going through and much more anti Holocaust propaganda but not "Lets starve the Germans to death" that was Morganthau

 

[Skallagrim]

I don't necessarily see that. I mean, the US had considerable ill will towards the Japanese but we propped them up. I could see a very thorough demilitarization going through and much more anti Holocaust propaganda but not "Lets starve the Germans to death" that was Morganthau

The USSR existed and was the next big threat. Naturally, former enemies had to be propped up. But if the USSR has collapsed and Russia is presumably going to be fairly weak for decades, then that argument ceases to be relevant. If, due to this premise, the war is longer and gets more brutal (with Hitler using nerve gas to kill countless American soldiers), there will be no clemency of any kind.

I'm not saying it'll be another Carthage, the Americans won't burn down the whole country and salt the earth afterwards, but they'll make damn sure to dismantle all industry and carve Germany into small, de-armed, exclusively pastoral tid-bits.

I don't think that'll involve starving the Germans to death. That was proposed as a war measure (and indeed, was a consequence of bombing rail-roads even in OTL). Afterwards, dismantling the industry and forcing all Germans to become pacifist farmers will in fact ensure that starvation is quickly a thing of the past. The amalgamation of German states will become "Europe's granary".

A century later, the stereotype of the German will be a slightly dumb, slighty overweight farmer. The jackboots and helmets will be a thing of the past. Another country, as it were. A Germany that has ceased to exist.

 

[Earl]

A century later, the stereotype of the German will be a slightly dumb, slighty overweight farmer. The jackboots and helmets will be a thing of the past. Another country, as it were. A Germany that has ceased to exist.

That or abunch of Nazi Terrorists. I doubt you could truely kill German Nationalism.