Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[Batrix2070]

If an analogue to the 30YW does play out, how will that affect the HRE's long term struggles against the Ottomans? Moreover, there may be a chance that the HRE may even extend its influence to Poland-Lithuania, possibly getting involved in selecting a new king.

Not very, it would end as it always does, i.e. with the Poles beating the Germans. Already the HRE, more precisely the Habsburgs, tried to do this and each time painfully found out that it was impossible.

Simply put, Poland alone is too strong to accomplish this, the effect would rather have been to achieve the consequences of the Thirty Years' War in the East of the Reich without the Thirty Years' War. A bloody stalemate is very possible, which a third party, i.e. Sweden or Turkey, will use to their advantage.

 

[Skallagrim]

I wonder if this could also lead to further centralization of power within the HRE that may in effect become one nation. With Ferdinand receiving the Low Countries instead of Spain, the Spaniards might be compensated with more Italian holdings in this scenario. A centralized HRE with the inclusion of the Dutch territories will probably become an economic player in its own right, but I would also suspect that it may face the Scandinavian countries and England, as well as France, as possible rivals. The radical factions of the Protestant movement within the HRE could possibly relocate to either France or England, depending on where they would end up. (England might be more plausible as a candidate for radical Protestant exiles, given its position).

If an analogue to the 30YW does play out, how will that affect the HRE's long term struggles against the Ottomans? Moreover, there may be a chance that the HRE may even extend its influence to Poland-Lithuania, possibly getting involved in selecting a new king.

If they become more centralized then the HRE will probably try to get colonies as well.

-- Centralisation of the Empire is likely, regardless of how things play out. Although "standardisation" is probably the better term. The degree to which this really involves centralisation spcifically will vary, but a re-organisation is in the cards. In scenarios where a split occurs, centralisation afterwards is more likely. If the Empire is kept united and religious self-determination is formalised without a major war, I think a process of "federalisation" is the most credible result.

-- The Empire is likely to lose its Italian holdings over time, but compensating Spain with these is not possible: the Spanish Habsburgs already got all Habsburg lands in Italy. The other parts of the Empire that were in Italy weren't held by the Habsburgs, and as such were not Charles V's to give away. (Theoretically, he could split the Imperial title, making Philip the titular "Holy Roman Emperor" and giving the Imperial overlordship -- though not direct rule over -- all Italian parts of the former united Empire; and making Ferdinand the "Holy German Emperor". But I doubt that would be practically achievable.)

-- In case of a united Empire in which radical protestantism is crushed, you can bet the radicals flock to England. Especially with the Netherlands being, you know, in the Empire still.

-- Imperial designs on Poland are implausible. They'd be very foolish to try. If the great religious struggles can be averted, in part or entirely, then this strengthens the Imperial position vis-à-vis the Ottomans. Which translates to greater/earlier successes in Hungary.

-- On the other end of the map, colonialism is a distinct possibility. New Netherlands would still be a thing, and in this situation, you could see lots of German settlers moving over there (possibly a lot of Low German speakers, whose regional speech would be mutually intelligible with that of people from the North-Eastern Netherlands). I can see the Dutch/Germans getting to the Conneticut river before the English, thus enlarging their domain. They might likewise edge out New Sweden, to their South.

-- Similarly, with sufficient German man-power to help out, Dutch Brazil might actually pan out (becoming a bigger counterpart to OTL Suriname?) and a claim to the Cape would be much more firm, making it harder for the English to get a hold of it.

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

-- Centralisation of the Empire is likely, regardless of how things play out. Although "standardisation" is probably the better term. The degree to which this really involves centralisation spcifically will vary, but a re-organisation is in the cards. In scenarios where a split occurs, centralisation afterwards is more likely. If the Empire is kept united and religious self-determination is formalised without a major war, I think a process of "federalisation" is the most credible result.

-- The Empire is likely to lose its Italian holdings over time, but compensating Spain with these is not possible: the Spanish Habsburgs already got all Habsburg lands in Italy. The other parts of the Empire that were in Italy weren't held by the Habsburgs, and as such were not Charles V's to give away. (Theoretically, he could split the Imperial title, making Philip the titular "Holy Roman Emperor" and giving the Imperial overlordship -- though not direct rule over -- all Italian parts of the former united Empire; and making Ferdinand the "Holy German Emperor". But I doubt that would be practically achievable.)

-- In case of a united Empire in which radical protestantism is crushed, you can bet the radicals flock to England. Especially with the Netherlands being, you know, in the Empire still.

-- Imperial designs on Poland are implausible. They'd be very foolish to try. If the great religious struggles can be averted, in part or entirely, then this strengthens the Imperial position vis-à-vis the Ottomans. Which translates to greater/earlier successes in Hungary.

-- On the other end of the map, colonialism is a distinct possibility. New Netherlands would still be a thing, and in this situation, you could see lots of German settlers moving over there (possibly a lot of Low German speakers, whose regional speech would be mutually intelligible with that of people from the North-Eastern Netherlands). I can see the Dutch/Germans getting to the Conneticut river before the English, thus enlarging their domain. They might likewise edge out New Sweden, to their South.

-- Similarly, with sufficient German man-power to help out, Dutch Brazil might actually pan out (becoming a bigger counterpart to OTL Suriname?) and a claim to the Cape would be much more firm, making it harder for the English to get a hold of it.

Ok, so I can agree with the notion that Imperial designs on Poland-Lithuania will be implausible, but at the very least they would be allies. Combined with a possible successful counter reformation efforts in all of Scandinavia, the British Isles might become the last bastion of Protestantism, thanks to the arrival of Continental European Protestant exiles. Would France remain Catholic too?

The real question in this case would be, how and where would England build their colonies if the Imperials grabbed most of North America?

 

[49ersfootball]

1.Hitler's suicide attempt fails he's captured and put on trial at Nuremberg for his crimes.

2. The UFP isn't retarded and puts a substantial defensive fleet at DS9 before the Cardasians join the Domionon.

3. Picard boards and searches the Cardasian freighters during TNG.

4. Sisquo shuts the hell up and doesn't tell the Cardasians about the Klingon invasion.

5. Kirk doesn't die fighting in generations,returns with Picard and becomes the President of the UFP.

Big question is whether the Allies will pressure majority of the Latin American nations to extradite the Nazis to face War Crimes criminal prosecution ?

 

[Skallagrim]

Ok, so I can agree with the notion that Imperial designs on Poland-Lithuania will be implausible, but at the very least they would be allies. Combined with a possible successful counter reformation efforts in all of Scandinavia, the British Isles might become the last bastion of Protestantism, thanks to the arrival of Continental European Protestant exiles. Would France remain Catholic too?

The real question in this case would be, how and where would England build their colonies if the Imperials grabbed most of North America?

I'm not sure that the POD would prompt a successful counter-reformation in Scandinavia. Alternaively, there might be closer Anglo-Scandinavian ties, binding together this firmly Protestant "fringe" around the Catholic(-ruled) heart of Europe. They might form an alliance to stay strong in their unity.

A successful "New Netherlands" (if it's still called that) would be considerably largers, but I don't think it would encompass most of North America. On its South-Western end, I think the Imperial colony could gain control of the Delaware Bay and thus the Delaware River and its watershed-- but the Susquehanna's watershed would almost certainly remain in English hands. Due to the latter's size and shape, this would rather hem in the Imperials.

Conversely, New England (already truncated) may very well be screwed. Between the Imperials and the French, we may see the area conquered, leading (in a bit of historical irony) to the "expulsion of the English". The Imperials would presumably be getting the better end of this affair, due to favourable geography. By which I mean: they'd push out to Boston and possibly even Portsmouth, while the French would mostly get, well... Maine.

(Or course, the nature of this division of the region leaves both the Imperials and the English unable to easily challenge New France, so the Ohio Country and the region surrounding the Great Lakes in what is OTL New York State will remain under French control for the time being.)

The English, therefore, would be confined to a region East of the Appalachians, stretching from the Susquehanna watershed, to... well, that's the question, right? Without having to fight the Dutch for eight decades, is Spain better off? And therefore able to consolidate its claims in what's OTL Georgia? Quite possible! At minimum, though, I do think that England gets the Carolinas. So all in all, it's not like they have no colonies. And neither are the Imperials somehow the new big boys of the block. But they're a regional player, and their presence hurst England and helps France. (Mostly inadventently, I'm sure!)



Previously, I mentioned Dutch Brazil because that was a thing in OTL, but upon consideration, the altered circumstances might prompt the Imperials to instead carry out their land-grab in a less-contested area. (Note that the good "slave country" was seen as the valuable, highly-contested land, whereas the temparate regions that we'dview as far superior settler lands were seen as more peripheral.) Specifically, I'm thinking of the fact that the Rio de la Plata area was not only late to be meaninfully colonised, but this excellent natural harbour was in fact harshly nerfed by Spanish colonial policies. I could see the Imperials taking over the joint, ultimately establishing a colony that fills up OTL Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and Southern Brazil with Dutch/German settlers.

(After all, we have to do our bit to live up to the "Germans in Argentina!" meme, do we not?)

 

[gral]

Previously, I mentioned Dutch Brazil because that was a thing in OTL, but upon consideration, the altered circumstances might prompt the Imperials to instead carry out their land-grab in a less-contested area. (Note that the good "slave country" was seen as the valuable, highly-contested land, whereas the temparate regions that we'dview as far superior settler lands were seen as more peripheral.) Specifically, I'm thinking of the fact that the Rio de la Plata area was not only late to be meaninfully colonised, but this excellent natural harbour was in fact harshly nerfed by Spanish colonial policies. I could see the Imperials taking over the joint, ultimately establishing a colony that fills up OTL Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and Southern Brazil with Dutch/German settlers.

(After all, we have to do our bit to live up to the "Germans in Argentina!" meme, do we not?)

Another reason the Dutch might not go to Brazil would be if the Dutch-Portuguese commercial and financial ties continue - until the late 16th Century, the sugar plantations in northeastern Brazil were mostly financed by Dutch commercial interests, who also were the biggest players in the distribution of sugar throughout northern Europe. The Iberian Union severed those ties, and the Dutch decided to get those lands(and the slave markets of western Africa) for themselves. If the Dutch and Portuguese still are partners, a lot of the motives for Dutch encroaching in Portuguese Atlantic colonies disappear(I still think they would clash over the Indian Ocean trade, though).

 

[ATP]

WI: 'Hittites survive the Bronze Age Collapse, Egyptians fall instead'

They discobered how to mass produce iron,so they would keep discovering other things,too.
You have superpowers with best technology on Earth,they would never let Persia become big Empire,later stop Alexander if he lived and tried sometching,and stop romans,too.

If muslims come to power,they would be stopped,too.

Some kind of Hittite superpower on Middle East now - much better world,i think.

P.S And rump Egypt here could be conqered by Nubia for good,and we really would have black Cleopatra!

 

[PsihoKekec]

Operation Lea succeeds.

In 1947 the French launched airborne assault to capture or kill Viet Minh leadership, which set up headquarters in the town Bac Kan. While paras captured the town, the defenders delayed them long enough for the leadership to escape. But what if leadership (Ho Chi Minh and Giap in particular) was caught up in a strafing run and mopped up by paras?

How long would it take for Viet Minh to reorganise after such loss and eliminate the RC 4 outposts, opening the way for supplies from China?

 

[Zyobot]

'ATL 1984 Election: George HW Bush Vs. Walter Mondale'.

Say Reagan resigns due to health issues, rather than the assassination attempt in '81 getting him.

 

[Zyobot]

'ASB: People Reincarnate With Past-Life Memories'.

Or at the very least, enough "flashes" of their previous selves' memories and experiences to confirm that yes, they've been reincarnated and have lived many lives before their current one.

 

[49ersfootball]

Pope JP II assassinated on May 13th, 1981. What are the major ramifications of the horrific incident & International fallout ?

 

[ATP]

Pope JP II assassinated on May 13th, 1981. What are the major ramifications of the horrific incident & International fallout ?

Interesting idea,but possible.According to doctors,pope should die that day.

What happen? in short notice,nothing,in long - soviets would fall earlier becouse Reagan would cut all technology and made oil cheap earlier.
And,in Poland commies hopefully would not come to power after Poland become free again.

So,politically earlier soviet fall,and bigger changes in Poland and maybe other ex-commie states.

For Church - i see another conservative pope,probably Ratzinger,who would travel less,but focus on cleansing Church from various mafias.
JPII unfortunatelly was too lenient.

 

[Skallagrim]

For Church - i see another conservative pope,probably Ratzinger

Wasn't John Paul II elected precisely because a compromise was needed? It seems unlikely that the conservative faction would now, just a few years later, have the majority. And if they did, surely it would be Giuseppe Siri -- at long last -- instead of Ratzinger?

Siri would die in '89, though, so if the Church really did veer conservative, then perhaps Ratzinger might be a good contender at the subsequent conclave. And in that case, due to the more conservative direction, he'd feel emboldened to 'finish the job', remaining as Pope until his death in 2022. Four decades of conservative leadership in the Church could only be a good thing.

However, I still don't see why this conservative triumph would manifest. It's possible, but I see no reasons to just assume that it would play out like that.

 

[Zyobot]

'Herbert Hoover Assassinated'.

Doesn't have to be immediately, but some time after the 1929 Crash makes the most obvious sense. Really, I'm surprised things didn't end that way IOTL, due to how much hate he got for all the Hoovervilles and shit.

 

[ATP]

Wasn't John Paul II elected precisely because a compromise was needed? It seems unlikely that the conservative faction would now, just a few years later, have the majority. And if they did, surely it would be Giuseppe Siri -- at long last -- instead of Ratzinger?

Siri would die in '89, though, so if the Church really did veer conservative, then perhaps Ratzinger might be a good contender at the subsequent conclave. And in that case, due to the more conservative direction, he'd feel emboldened to 'finish the job', remaining as Pope until his death in 2022. Four decades of conservative leadership in the Church could only be a good thing.

However, I still don't see why this conservative triumph would manifest. It's possible, but I see no reasons to just assume that it would play out like that.

i forget book and name of Cardinal,but i read that both JPI and JPII was made popes by conservative cardinal who use them to made Church more conservative.

And why choose conservative - after everybody woud knew that commies did it,soviet friendly candidates would not have chance.

It would be better for Church,indeed - JPII was good man,but not strict enough with bishops and cardinals who betraied Church.
Benedict would not made such mistake,and after his reign we would have now stronger,clean Church with another conservative pope.

 

[49ersfootball]

Wasn't John Paul II elected precisely because a compromise was needed? It seems unlikely that the conservative faction would now, just a few years later, have the majority. And if they did, surely it would be Giuseppe Siri -- at long last -- instead of Ratzinger?

Siri would die in '89, though, so if the Church really did veer conservative, then perhaps Ratzinger might be a good contender at the subsequent conclave. And in that case, due to the more conservative direction, he'd feel emboldened to 'finish the job', remaining as Pope until his death in 2022. Four decades of conservative leadership in the Church could only be a good thing.

However, I still don't see why this conservative triumph would manifest. It's possible, but I see no reasons to just assume that it would play out like that.

Wasn't Siri from Italy ?

 

[ATP]

Wasn't Siri from Italy ?

Yes,he was,and he was not heretic.He would be good pope.

 

[Zyobot]

'2022 Turkey To 1962'.

Say it happens on October 16th of both years (the start of the Cuban Missile Crisis).

As I recall, the US's Jupiter missiles in Turkey were what prompted the USSR to install its own missiles in Cuba, so Turkey from the future will definitely "spice up" an already-contentious crisis.

 

[Buba]

'2022 Turkey To 1962'.

Nukes fly.
If not - Turkey has the Mother Of Economic Crisis.
Again if no nukes, the Arab world flocks to the USSR when they learn about "special relationship" between US and Israel.
This "special relationship" might not form ITTL, though, as the careers of the Kennedy Brothers end inside a few months. The '62 midterms will be interesting , the '64 elections, once more information spreads, will be even more interesting. I'd expect a cleanout of sleazos, crooks, philanderers, drunks in both US parties. Nixon is politcally dead too, of course.
Speaking of Arabs - OPEC starts playing silly bugger earlier? The USA/West invades somebody to bring democary to oil producing countries?
But, most importantly of all, three points for win, penalty shootouts and goal difference (not ratio) come to football about 20 years earlier.

 

[49ersfootball]

Nukes fly.
If not - Turkey has the Mother Of Economic Crisis.
Again if no nukes, the Arab world flocks to the USSR when they learn about "special relationship" between US and Israel.
This "special relationship" might not form ITTL, though, as the careers of the Kennedy Brothers end inside a few months. The '62 midterms will be interesting , the '64 elections, once more information spreads, will be even more interesting. I'd expect a cleanout of sleazos, crooks, philanderers, drunks in both US parties. Nixon is politcally dead too, of course.
Speaking of Arabs - OPEC starts playing silly bugger earlier? The USA/West invades somebody to bring democary to oil producing countries?
But, most importantly of all, three points for win, penalty shootouts and goal difference (not ratio) come to football about 20 years earlier.

Uh-oh.