Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

The early phases of Turkish conquest of Western Anatolia--during the beylik period, mostly--involved a great deal of destruction, mass murder and enslavement that drove the Greeks of many of the river valleys/interior highlands to coastal cities, the islands or Peninsular Greece. I know that Michael VIII and Andronikos II (and other emperors, IIRC) evacuated the Greek populations of the Anatolian frontier to more 'defensible' regions in Europe as well, so the Islamification isn't so much voluntary conversion as it is depopulation and 'convert-or-die' tactics from the ghazis. The Ottomans eased up on the forced conversions, hence why Peninsular Greece remained Orthodox while their Anatolian brethren didn't.

Also, I've been told (but not given a source) that many of the Greeks in Western Anatolia migrated/returned their during Ottoman rule, but that's basically hearsay.

Another thing worth noting from this Turkification of Anatolia documentary:



It said that a lot of churches and Christian organizational structures in the Anatolian interior were destroyed in the centuries that the Anatolian interior was under Muslim rule. So, devout Christians found it harder to find churches and church leadership to organize themselves and to rally behind. This might have very well made mass conversions to Islam in the Anatolian interior easier relative to mass conversions to Islam in Greece, where churches and Christian organizational structures (parishes, dioceses, et cetera) might have been less damaged as a result of centuries of Muslim rule.

@History Learner Did you ever actually watch the entire documentary above? Because it not, then you should. It's only 20 minutes and it's very interesting. I'm speaking as someone who myself personally previously watched all of it.
 
The early phases of Turkish conquest of Western Anatolia--during the beylik period, mostly--involved a great deal of destruction, mass murder and enslavement that drove the Greeks of many of the river valleys/interior highlands to coastal cities, the islands or Peninsular Greece. I know that Michael VIII and Andronikos II (and other emperors, IIRC) evacuated the Greek populations of the Anatolian frontier to more 'defensible' regions in Europe as well, so the Islamification isn't so much voluntary conversion as it is depopulation and 'convert-or-die' tactics from the ghazis. The Ottomans eased up on the forced conversions, hence why Peninsular Greece remained Orthodox while their Anatolian brethren didn't.

Also, I've been told (but not given a source) that many of the Greeks in Western Anatolia migrated/returned their during Ottoman rule, but that's basically hearsay.

I'd agree with that, but that still leads back to the issue of Eastern Anatolia of having fewer Christians than Western Anatolia, despite the latter being the original hit point of the Turks and under their control the longest.
 
I'd agree with that, but that still leads back to the issue of Eastern Anatolia of having fewer Christians than Western Anatolia, despite the latter being the original hit point of the Turks and under their control the longest.

The Greek Orthodox Christians in eastern Anatolia were mainly in Trebizond, IIRC. The rest were Armenian Oriental Orthodox Christians.
 
The Greek Orthodox Christians in eastern Anatolia were mainly in Trebizond, IIRC. The rest were Armenian Oriental Orthodox Christians.

Probably yes, but that still leads to the question of why they remained Christian at higher rates than Anatolian Greeks. You could make cultural arguments or the like, but they fall apart again when you consider Peninsular Greeks also supposedly converted at far lower rates than their Anatolian cohorts despite similar time lengths under Muslim rule.
 
Probably yes, but that still leads to the question of why they remained Christian at higher rates than Anatolian Greeks. You could make cultural arguments or the like, but they fall apart again when you consider Peninsular Greeks also supposedly converted at far lower rates than their Anatolian cohorts despite similar time lengths under Muslim rule.

Ask this question on Historum. I'm interested in seeing if you'll get any answers there.
 
I'd agree with that, but that still leads back to the issue of Eastern Anatolia of having fewer Christians than Western Anatolia, despite the latter being the original hit point of the Turks and under their control the longest.
The ghazis, who were responsible for much of the forced conversions and depopulation, were a West Anatolian phenomenon, while East Anatolia was ruled by the more administrative Eretnids, who saw the local Christians as a source of money rather than infidels to be destroyed. The Trapezuntines/other Christian authorities also never engaged in willing depopulation like the Byzantines did, so the factors that led to the disruption of Western Anatolian populations never occured there.
 
WI: Andronikos II killed at Tralleis?

In 1284, Andronikos II campaigned against Turkic bands in Thracesia, culminating in Andronikos' defeat (or draw, sources differ) at Tralleis. What if he had been killed instead?

- The throne is taken by Michael IX, who is only 7 years old at this point. Michael's parents are both dead, leaving the logical regent as Patriarch Gregory II. Gregory is somewhat popular, but he has little support from the army and bureaucracy, which gives Constantine Palaiologos, Michael's uncle, to elbow his way into the regency. Constantine appears to have been a good general and had the support of the army and much of the common people, so the likely outcome is either Constantine displacing Gregory or forming a power-sharing agreement with Constantine running the army and Gregory running the state.

- Militarily, the Byzantines will be in a better place than OTL. The navy has yet to be disbanded and so Constantinople can control its own shorelines and isn't dependent on the Italians. The Sicilian Vespers has already started, so the Neapolitans won't be a factor for several decades.
- Constantine, and the upper ranks of the army as well, will likely be quite upset by the Turks killing Andronikos and so will launch campaigns across the Anatolian frontier to push them back. However, this won't be the most effective, as the Byzantines would be grabbing cities and valleys only for them to be overrun the second the army goes someplace else, similar to OTL efforts. However, I suspect that Constantine, or at least one of the Anatolian military governors--the connections that got Philanthropenos and Tarchaneiotes into power will remain ITTL, so the Byzantines will have several very effective generals/rulers--will cotton on to this and embrace the ideas of Constantine Lakharnes, an obscure OTL figure who proposed creating lines of forts and fortified settlements to defend and expand the frontier but was shot down because of cost. The Byzantines will successfully push back into the interior, probably pushing back to the rim of the Plateau. Philanthropenos' OTL habit of allying with some Turks against others and creating Turkish auxiliaries will probably be continued, which will help with on-the-ground control and hopefully divide the Turks against each other.
- OTL Constantine seems to have had an interest in Macedonia, and it seems possible that, with more resources, he will embark on campaigns in Europe against the Francocratia. Without Andronikos' hiring of the Catalan Company, the Latins will still be squabbling amongst each other and will lack outside support, making them easy to conquer or vassalize. The Byzantines will pick up more land, revenue, and control over the Aegean, all good.

- Economically, the Byzantines will still be struggling with expansive noble control through corrupt pronoia (tax grants). However, without refugees from Anatolia to exacerbate tensions and fuel the creation of an urban underclass, internal tensions will be reduced, and with more control over trade thanks to the surviving navy the central authorities will be able to exert themselves without being dominated by the pronoiars. However, with existing trends continuing, this will just be kicking the can down the road as the nobility tries to exert more and more influence. It will likely take some scare in the majority reign of Michael IX to disrupt this pattern....

Thoughts?
Should I keep going?
 
Zentrum problem not. Progressives potentially. Politics might well end up radicalized after the war as the people demand rewards for their sacrifices.

This TL would actually be pretty cool, actually. Do the A-H and Ottoman monarchies also get abolished in this TL?
 
This TL would actually be pretty cool, actually. Do the A-H and Ottoman monarchies also get abolished in this TL?
AH probably for sure given how hated the Habsburgs were by the end even when they were still being dragged to seeming victory by the Germans in early 1918.

The Ottomans probably not, but then I have little knowledge about their internal politics.
 
AH probably for sure given how hated the Habsburgs were by the end even when they were still being dragged to seeming victory by the Germans in early 1918.

The Ottomans probably not, but then I have little knowledge about their internal politics.

Interesting. A TL where the CPs win WWI but still end up having the Germanic monarchies overturn would be pretty cool. :)

What do you think that it would take to break up the Franco-Russian alliance in the absence of Communism?
 
Interesting. A TL where the CPs win WWI but still end up having the Germanic monarchies overturn would be pretty cool. :)
Pretty unlikely though if they win. To avoid major issues they'd probably legistaltively render them powerless figureheads like the current British monarchy.

What do you think that it would take to break up the Franco-Russian alliance in the absence of Communism?
When?
 
Pretty unlikely though if they win. To avoid major issues they'd probably legistaltively render them powerless figureheads like the current British monarchy.


When?

You mean to avoid pissing off conservatives in their countries?

At any point in time up to the present-day.
 
The powerbrokers more like, as well as the power of tradition. Germans are inherently conservative and middle class minded. Plus in victory it is really hard to unseat a monarch when the military is going to be on their side.


With or without the world wars?

Interesting analysis. What caused the German middle class to support Weimar in 1918-1919? Or was it primarily the German working-class who pushed for Weimar, with the German middle class simply accepting Weimar as the less bad alternative to a Communist takeover and with the German middle class preferring a British-style constitutional monarchy instead? I know that even in defeat, the abolition of the German monarchy was not the SPD's preference. Rather, it was done in order to prevent a Communist takeover.

Either/or.
 
Interesting analysis. What caused the German middle class to support Weimar in 1918-1919? Or was it primarily the German working-class who pushed for Weimar, with the German middle class simply accepting Weimar as the less bad alternative to a Communist takeover and with the German middle class preferring a British-style constitutional monarchy instead? I know that even in defeat, the abolition of the German monarchy was not the SPD's preference. Rather, it was done in order to prevent a Communist takeover.

Either/or.
Lack of options. It was the communists or cleaving to the only other viable option.

Germany didn't push for Weimar, it was formed out of the collapsed monarchy by liberal politicians and nobles who thought they could get a better deal at Versailles by forming a republic instead. Turns out there didn't work, so lots of political instability resulted and the Kapp Putsch was attempted. The Allies didn't want to deal with such a regime, nor did the German workers support it, so Germany was stuck with Weimar and it muddled along for a while.

The German middle class went along with the best of a bad series of option, pretty much the same with every other class.
 

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