Abraham Lincoln: American Dictator

f1onagher

Well-known member


So Razorfist dropped his long-promised documentary on Abraham Lincoln and it is as spicy as promised. I was always familiar with Lincoln's more well-known overreaches but was unfamiliar with just how frequently and flagrantly he violated the constitution to remove his detractors. I was certainly never informed that he was using secret police to protect his agents and intimidate his critics. I encourage everyone to give this one a look, I know it's over an hour long, but it's definitely worth it and I encourage those with expertise in Lincoln's history to comment on how accurate they think the depiction here is.

A quick description for those skeptical:

Chapter one of the video addresses the lost cause, mainly by denoting between the Whig and Jeffersonian wings of the Democratic party.
Chapter two dismantles Lincoln's status as an emancipator, expounding on his more well-known failures with the emancipation proclamation and going into detail about the many options Lincoln refused to use since emancipation was ultimately a tool and never a goal.
Chapter three talks about Lincoln's dictatorial actions and compares his war emergencies to those used by previous presidents. It expounds on how he terrorized the northern population into compliance and violated the rights of his political opponents.
The final chapter talks about how Lincoln deliberately engineered and then exacerbated the war for his own ends.

It's a good watch, Razorfist lists the sources for the lecture which includes plenty of pro-Lincoln sources and as he says multiple times in the video: the south doesn't need to be good guys for Lincoln to be a tyrant.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
One thing I'll disagree with him on right out of the gate is the importance of slavery to the conflict. It might not have mattered to Lincoln, but it certainly mattered to the South, or all the various declarations and state constitutions would not have made such a point of preserving the institution, and would not have stressed the importance of it in their reasons for seceding from the Union. The documents simply do not support his argument there.
 

Free-Stater 101

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One thing I'll disagree with him on right out of the gate is the importance of slavery to the conflict. It might not have mattered to Lincoln, but it certainly mattered to the South, or all the various declarations and state constitutions would not have made such a point of preserving the institution, and would not have stressed the importance of it in their reasons for seceding from the Union. The documents simply do not support his argument there.
This.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Lincoln engineered or prolonged the war even if I admit he wasn't as angelic of a president outside preserving the U.S. or freeing the slaves.

Lincoln in doing what he thought right to keep the union together used methods which grossly distorted the balance of power in the government and ultimately ushered in the beginnings of what would evolve into the imperial presidency with a lack of respect for the rights of the states and ascension of federal power reigning supreme...

However as someone with southern blood I can safely say the south also shares the blame in the death of 'states rights' and it becoming taboo as any sort of a positive in the modern era by having married the term to an asinine cause like slavery over something far more valuable later on.
 
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Abhorsen

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One thing I'll disagree with him on right out of the gate is the importance of slavery to the conflict. It might not have mattered to Lincoln, but it certainly mattered to the South, or all the various declarations and state constitutions would not have made such a point of preserving the institution, and would not have stressed the importance of it in their reasons for seceding from the Union. The documents simply do not support his argument there.
This. There seems to be a common argument that "The North didn't care about slavery, therefore the South didn't." It's mirrored by others that "The South fought for slavery, thus the North were the good guys."

In fact, both are at least half wrong. The South fought to preserve slavery (it's explicitly listed in their seccesion documents). They didn't give a rats ass about state's rights (look at the Fugitive Slave act for a prime example of the South flagrantly violating the Northern States' rights), unless it advanced slavery.

Meanwhile, the North cared a little about slavery (more accurately, a few in the North cared deeply about slavery, most didn't care beyond a generic "it's bad, mmkay?"), but also didn't want the south to leave. Lincoln did what would normally be clearly wrong and violently warred against the state's secession. It's moral wrongness depends on why he did it (not why he said he did it). There could be an argument made that fighting a massive war to end slavery was just. I'd say it's a pretty damn good argument. But fighting to preserve the Union is not just, as a union must be consensual.

Personally, I think Lincoln died before he had the chance to show himself as the villain he could have been, which was good for the US.
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
Guys.

As Razor says, the South can be bad AND Lincolin can be a dictator, at the same time, even!


It's not a general documentary about the Civil War, it's about what a asshole Lincoln was. And, if Razor is right? Secret Police, murdering political enemies, deliberately supporting and pushing genocide?


If Razor's right, and he's got a pretty good track record, then Lincoln wasn't much better than Hitler, he just had better PR.
 
Guys.

As Razor says, the South can be bad AND Lincolin can be a dictator, at the same time, even!


It's not a general documentary about the Civil War, it's about what a asshole Lincoln was. And, if Razor is right? Secret Police, murdering political enemies, deliberately supporting and pushing genocide?


If Razor's right, and he's got a pretty good track record, then Lincoln wasn't much better than Hitler, he just had better PR.

very true and it sounds like I should be happy I didn't live during that time. But it sucks living in the after-effects.
 

Free-Stater 101

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Guys.

As Razor says, the South can be bad AND Lincolin can be a dictator, at the same time, even!
Did you read our post?

Lincoln wasn't a dictator even if he was expressing authoritarian tendencies, he wouldn't have been afraid of losing in 1864 so much if that were the case. That being said I don't think anyone here is in denial of Lincoln's action's nor pretending he is an all-mighty saint.

Lincoln's assassination made people starry eyed to his many faults as well as blind to the results of the poor precedence's he set in motion but that doesn't mean he was the devil incarnate anti-christ either.
 
Did you read our post?

Lincoln wasn't a dictator even if he was expressing authoritarian tendencies, he wouldn't have been afraid of losing in 1864 so much if that were the case. That being said I don't think anyone here is in denial of Lincoln's action's nor pretending he is an all-mighty saint.

Lincoln's assassination made people starry eyed to his many faults as well as blind to the results of the poor precedence's he set in motion but that doesn't mean he was the devil incarnate anti-christ either.

no but it could be argued he was the first of the false prophets (IE the predecessors) that prepared for the coming of the Dragon (IE Woodrow Wilson)
 

Simonbob

Well-known member
Did you read our post?

Lincoln wasn't a dictator even if he was expressing authoritarian tendencies, he wouldn't have been afraid of losing in 1864 so much if that were the case. That being said I don't think anyone here is in denial of Lincoln's action's nor pretending he is an all-mighty saint.

Lincoln's assassination made people starry eyed to his many faults as well as blind to the results of the poor precedence's he set in motion but that doesn't mean he was the devil incarnate anti-christ either.

Have you watched the video? If you had, you'd see Razor saying that he was a complete Stateist monster.


Again. Secret police, mass murder, entire towns razed from existance and more.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
@bintananth ^^

One thing I'll disagree with him on right out of the gate is the importance of slavery to the conflict. It might not have mattered to Lincoln, but it certainly mattered to the South, or all the various declarations and state constitutions would not have made such a point of preserving the institution, and would not have stressed the importance of it in their reasons for seceding from the Union. The documents simply do not support his argument there.

Slavery was on the way out globally(Well, in the areas under Anglo and European influence, it is still practiced in Africa and was practiced in Saudi Arabia to the 1960s.), even if it was not abolished during muh US Civil War enough diplomatic pressure would have been put on the Confederacy to abolish it by its various customers and allies.

In part there were economic concerns, but it was mostly morality that had to advance, since it should be painfully obvious to anyone with half a brain that a motivated free worker with skin in the game is more productive than a chattel slave.

However, as both RazorFist and Sowell point out, the slaves were part of a mortgaged estate, which means that they were actually owned by a Northern Bank.

Even the latest favorite boogieman, Andrew Jackson,expressed an interest in a possible European-style emancipation, with some compensation given to the owners.

So Lincold could not do or push for that, the same Lincoln that said he would be fine with preserving the union without freeing a single salve.


To emphasize my point:
While the keeping of the Sabbath as a day free of worldly
activities and amusements was a common practice in many parts
of the United States in centuries past, that was not the practice
among the rednecks and crackers of the antebellum South. South-
erners “had fun on Sundays,” to the consternation of Northern
observers:
“One of the strangest sights to a New England man, on visiting
Southern states, is the desecration of the Sabbath,” wrote a Yan-
kee. “In some of the cities, especially if a good number of the
business men are from the North
, the churches are tolerably
well attended,—there being but one sermon for the day. But
even here the afternoon and evening are much devoted to
amusements.” Another Northerner declared that in the south
“there is no Sabbath…they work, run, swear, and drink here on
Sundays just as they do on any other day of the week.”139
Many Southerners did not go to church at all, or did so inter-
mittently, or when not distracted by other activities.140 Again, this
was a pattern found among their ancestors in Britain.141 Among
the reasons given by contemporaries for low church-attendance
among Southerners was that they often got drunk on Satur-
day night and were in no condition to go to church on Sunday
morning.
...
…I know that while men seldom want an abundance of coarse
food in the Cotton States, the proportion of the free white men
who live as well in any aspect as our working classes in the
North, on an average, is small, and that the citizens of the cot-
ton States, as a whole, are poor. They work little, and that little,
badly; they earn little; they sell little; they buy little, and they
have little—very little—of the common comforts and consola-
tions of civilized life. Their destitution is not material only; it is
intellectual and it is moral.62
When Olmsted found work done efficiently, promptly, and
well during his travels through the South—when he found well-
run businesses,good libraries,impressive churches,and efficiently
functioning institutions in general—he almost invariably found
them to be run by Northerners, foreigners, or Jews.63
...
Free-
ing in their midst millions of people of an alien race and unknown
disposition, and with no history in either Africa or America that
would prepare them to be citizens of a society such as the United
States, was not an experiment that many were willing to risk in
these states. Not when it could mean risking their lives.
Only those on opposite ends of a spectrum of opinion found
the issue of slavery easy—those like Senator John C. Calhoun of
South Carolina, who wished to keep blacks enslaved indefinitely,
and those like Massachusetts’ William Lloyd Garrison, who advo-
cated immediate emancipation of blacks with the full rights of
citizenship. Ironically, both men reasoned on the basis of abstract
principles—legalistic principles in the case of Calhoun and moral-
istic principles in the case of Garrison.95 In both cases, the
relentless march of their syllogisms left the painful human realities
and dilemmas fading into the dim background. For the majority
of Americans in between, neither option was acceptable, nor was
any other option able to command a general consensus.
The kind of strange cross-currents this situation generated
were perhaps epitomized by the career of Congressman John Ran-
dolph of Virginia, a prominent and bitter opponent of the
abolitionists, who nevertheless hated slavery. Slavery was to him
“a cancer” but one which “must not be tampered with by quacks,
who never saw the disease or the patient,” for this could end in
the race war that he too feared, threatening “the life’s blood of
the little ones,which are lying in their cradles,in happy ignorance
of what is passing around them; and not the white ones only, for
shall not we too kill?”96
Fears of a race war were not confined to Southerners, how-
ever, or even to Americans. Alexis de Tocqueville saw a race war
in the South as a very real possibility in the wake of mass emanci-
pation and one of many painful prospects created by the
institution of slavery,especially a slavery in which the freed people
and their descendants would be physically distinct and could not

readily vanish by assimilation into the larger society, as in some
earlier times and in other parts of the world. Moreover,slavery was
a very poor preparation for freedom for blacks, economically,
socially or otherwise. Free blacks were already very dispropor-
tionately represented in prison populations,creating fears of what
would happen if the much larger slave population were suddenly
freed.
Even a Northern opponent of slavery like Frederick Law Olm-
sted, having encountered and been appalled by slave field hands
during his travels through the South,feared that their “presence in
large numbers must be considered a dangerous circumstance to a
civilized people.”97
...
Even when private manumissions of individual slaves was
legally possible, it was not wholly without its dilemmas. Modern
historian David Brion Davis denounced Congressman John Ran-
dolph for “hypocrisy” because Randolph publicly condemned the
slave trade during a visit to England,125 while he himself contin-
ued to hold slaves in the United States. However, Randolph was
not just speaking for public consumption in England. He said sim-
ilar things both in public and in private letters to friends in the
United States.126 Why, then, did Randolph not simply free his own
slaves? This question reaches beyond one man and has implica-
tions for the whole set of contradictions which slavery presented
in a free society.
At a personal level, the answer was clearest: Randolph could
not simply free his own slaves legally, since he had inherited a
mortgaged estate and the slaves were part of that estate.127 Only
after he had removed both financial and legal encumbrances was
freeing his slaves possible, and only after he made some provision
for their economic viability as free people did he consider it
humane. During hard economic times,Randolph wrote to a friend
of “more than two hundred mouths looking up to me for food”
and though it would be “easy to rid myself of the burthen,”
morally it would be “more difficult to abandon them to the cruel
fate to which our laws would consign them than to suffer with
them.”128 Thomas Jefferson likewise owned a plantation encum-
bered by debt, as did many other Southerners, so emancipation of

all of Jefferson’s slaves was never a real possibility, though he did
manage to free nine of them.
Like Burke and Randolph, Jefferson did not see slavery as an
abstract issue. He saw the heavy moral stigma of slavery but also
the social dangers to flesh and blood people. He wrote in a letter:
I can say, with conscious truth, that there is not a man on earth
who would sacrifice more than I would to relieve us from this
heavy reproach,in any practicable way. The cession of that kind
of property (for so it is misnamed) is a bagatelle, which would
not cost me a second thought, if in that way a general emanci-
pation and expatriation could be effected; and gradually, and
with due sacrifices, I think it might be. But, as it is, we have the
wolf by the ears,and we can neither hold him nor safety let him
go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.129
Many other slaveowners of course saw their slaves as simply
a source of wealth and were therefore determined to hold on to
them for that reason. However, even those slaveholders with aver-
sions to slavery in principle were constrained by a strong tradition
of stewardship, in which the family inheritance was not theirs to
dispose of in their own lifetime, but to pass on to others as it had
been passed on to them. George Washington was one of those
who had inherited slaves and, dying childless, freed his slaves in
his will, effective on the death of his wife. His will also provided
that slaves too old or too beset with “bodily infirmities” to take
care of themselves should be taken care of by his estate, and that
the children were to be “taught to read and write” and trained for
“some useful occupation.”130 His estate in fact continued to pay
for the support of some freed slaves for decades after his death, in
accordance with his will.131
The part of Washington’s will dealing with slaves filled
almost three pages,and the tone as well as the length of it showed
his concerns:
The emancipation clause stands out from the rest of Washing-
ton’s will in the unique forcefulness of its language. Elsewhere
in it Washington used the standard legal expressions—“I give
and bequeath,” “it is my will and direction.” In one instance he
politely wrote, “by way of advice, I recommend to my Execu-
tors…” But the emancipation clause rings with the voice of
The Real History of Slavery
149
command; it has the iron firmness of a field order: “I do hereby
expressly forbid the sale…of any Slave I may die possessed of,
under any pretext whatsoever.”132
Long before reaching this point in his personal life, George
Washington had said of slavery as a national issue: “There is not a
man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan
adopted for the abolition of it.”133 But,like Burke,he saw a need for
a plan of some sort,rather than simply freeing millions of slaves in
a newly emerging nation surrounded by threatening powers, just
as the freed slaves themselves would be surrounded by a hostile
population. In short, the moral principle was easy but figuring
out how to apply it in practice was not. Moreover, in a country
with an elected government, how the white population at large
felt could not be ignored. When Washington congratulated
Lafayette for the latter’s purchase of a plantation where former
slaves could live, he added: “Would to God a like spirit would dif-
fuse itself generally into the minds of the people of this country;
but I despair of seeing it.” He saw legislation as the only way to
end slavery and said that a legislator who did that would get his
vote.134

Source,Black Rednecks and White Liberals by Thomas Sowell yup, probably a redneck klanner, judgin by is picture:
Thomas_Sowell_cropped.jpg

Oh, wait...
 
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Free-Stater 101

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no but it could be argued he was the first of the false prophets (IE the predecessors) that prepared for the coming of the Dragon (IE Woodrow Wilson)
LOL, Fair.
Have you watched the video? If you had, you'd see Razor saying that he was a complete Stateist monster.
How does this relate to what I am saying? I said he wasn't a complete dictator but flirted with authoritarian tendencies you're shifting the goalposts.
Again. Secret police, mass murder, entire towns razed from existance and more.
It was the civil war what are you expecting?

Literally mass murder between homes were common in the south between sides especially in border states mass murder is to be expected as are towns being razed when in such a conflict. The only part here that's relevant here is the secret police.
 

Free-Stater 101

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Mussolini did a lot of the same shit, and no one has any problem calling him a dictator. :cautious:
Are you going to address my post or give any context as to why I am wrong? Or just call me Hitler next for supporting Nazi baby eater Lincoln? Context matters.

Lincoln flirted with authoritarianism in the name of restoring the union I have seen no evidence beyond of him being an actual true dictator to the extent of Mussolini.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
To your claim that he wasn't a dictator, but simply flirted with authoritarianism, I call bullshit. His actions say otherwise. You do not send the army to shut down newspapers and arrest the people working there, or secret police to arrest critics, or jail judges and any number of other people without trial unless you are a dictator. As Razorfist correctly points out, Mussolini did all the same things, and no one has any problem calling him such.
 
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Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
Lincoln swore to uphold the Union and tried to keep that oath in whatever way he could.

Also, "war time leader does morally sketchy things" really shouldn't be a surprise because war is war. The liberal approach tends to be cut to pieces on the battlefield.
You should watch the video. He goes into that. Lincoln went way further. Also, the idea that the Constitution should be tossed out the window in the event of a war should be anathema to this nation. Appallingly, it has stuck around as an argument and was used by neo-cons to justify everything they did post-9/11. :cautious:
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Are you going to address my post or give any context as to why I am wrong? Or just call me Hitler next for supporting Nazi baby eater Lincoln? Context matters.

Lincoln flirted with authoritarianism in the name of restoring the union I have seen no evidence beyond of him being an actual true dictator to the extent of Mussolini.
Flirted?

From what RazorFist described he didn't flirt as much as Mating Pressed Authoritarianism while downing viagra after not getting any hooch for a few months.

Mass, repeated censorship.

Took warmaking powers away from Congress.

Sent federal troops to kill protesters.

Literally jailed people for not saying a prayer for him.

Permitting warcrimes to be perpetrated against the South to a degree that would make Serbs and Bosniaks eyeroll.

Jailing and exiling political opponents.

Telling the slaves in the south to rise up and murder people so that he could damage Southern war making capabilities.
 
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Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Flirted?

From what RazorFist described he didn't flirt as much as Mating Pressed Authoritarianism while downing viagra after not getting any hooch for a few months.

Mass, repeated censorship.

Took warmaking powers away from Congress.

Sent federal troops to kill protesters.

Literally jailed people for not saying a prayer for him.

Permitting warcrimes to be perpetrated against the South to a degree that would make Serbs and Bosniaks eyeroll.

Jailing and exiling political opponents.

Telling the slaves in the south to rise up and murder people so that he could damage Southern war making capabilities.

B A S E D
 

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