What If? A Magog World Ship against the following galaxies

[Crom's Black Blade]

I have heard the multi-kilometer size quote in several episodes, but do feel free to dig it up yourself.

I believe that since you made the positive claim that Rommie was "multi-kilometer" it falls to you to provide proof of this assertion. Since it is in several episodes I'm sure it will be quite easy for you to track it down.

The mass just means they have extremely advanced nano materials and armor that are very lightweight.

The fact Rommie's hull can take a 20 megaton kinetic impact with barely a paint scratch pretty much already established she's well helluva armored warship. But that has nothing to do with anything since A.) Rommie isn't involved in this What If, B.) Rommie is depicted as being disproportionately stronger than most other vessels in her Verse and C.) we were discussing mass reduction technology.

Specifically you made the claim that the Commonwealth mass reduction tech was " orders of magnitude better" because of how large Andromeda was but in point of fact Voyager is the larger vessel in terms of the only relevant criteria its mass by roughly seven times. Per your own argument that would imply Starfleet has "orders of magnitude better" mass lightening. Unless you wish to now claim your original argument was based upon a flawed premise.

Yeah, sure, tell that to the huge-ass and super-maneuverable ship that the Consensus of Parts had, the worldship, too.

Up till know we were speaking of Commonwealth warships but if you wish to switch to biomechanical alien factions then a Borg scout ship masses 2.5 million metric tons, reference "I, Borg" season 5 of TNG, so a full sized Borg cube likely weighs much, much more. And Borg ships are fairly nimble when they want to be.

Further I don't remember VX's ship doing anything that impressive maneuvers wise in "The Sum of it's Parts" and at one point I remember they specifically stated it wasn't maneuvering/evading their fire because it was so powerful it didn't need too.

Similarly the World Ship didn't appear to be maneuverable at all in "It's hour come 'round at last" or the "The Widening Gyre" so I'm going to have to ask for what specific example you are referring too.

Yup, trek always mass produces its oneshot plotdevice tech <sarcasm>

Actually per Star Trek online, which I believe is considered canon, the Romulans have reproduced the technology for use as a weapon on their ships.

Trek land warfare is a bad joke.

Not really, rather ground combat is under utilized and overly fixated on a narrow niche by Starfleet and its peers. On basic principals there's nothing wrong with using transporters to quickly move squads to and fro across the battlefield exactly where they are needed augmented by the level of battlefield awareness provided by tricorders/sensors. Execution is of course much more of a mixed bag and the system has vulnerability towards anyone who doesn't abide by the same ruleset. Hence the curiosity to see how they'd respond to a race that lives for ground combat.

 

[Agent23]

I believe that since you made the positive claim that Rommie was "multi-kilometer" it falls to you to provide proof of this assertion. Since it is in several episodes I'm sure it will be quite easy for you to track it down.


The fact Rommie's hull can take a 20 megaton kinetic impact with barely a paint scratch pretty much already established she's well helluva armored warship. But that has nothing to do with anything since A.) Rommie isn't involved in this What If, B.) Rommie is depicted as being disproportionately stronger than most other vessels in her Verse and C.) we were discussing mass reduction technology.

We are discussing their overall capabilities, which are far more impressive for Andromeda than for Trek.

Specifically you made the claim that the Commonwealth mass reduction tech was " orders of magnitude better" because of how large Andromeda was but in point of fact Voyager is the larger vessel in terms of the only relevant criteria its mass by roughly seven times. Per your own argument that would imply Starfleet has "orders of magnitude better" mass lightening. Unless you wish to now claim your original argument was based upon a flawed premise.

Pfft, not really, it is more like Voyager is a huge hunk of heavy junk.
Or that number was taken when mass reduction was in effect.

Up till know we were speaking of Commonwealth warships but if you wish to switch to biomechanical alien factions then a Borg scout ship masses 2.5 million metric tons, reference "I, Borg" season 5 of TNG, so a full sized Borg cube likely weighs much, much more. And Borg ships are fairly nimble when they want to be.

Further I don't remember VX's ship doing anything that impressive maneuvers wise in "The Sum of it's Parts" and at one point I remember they specifically stated it wasn't maneuvering/evading their fire because it was so powerful it didn't need too.

Similarly the World Ship didn't appear to be maneuverable at all in "It's hour come 'round at last" or the "The Widening Gyre" so I'm going to have to ask for what specific example you are referring too.

The Coalition of Parts ship was orders of magnitude larger than Rommie, and could chase her in real and slipspace.

And visually it appears far denser than Andromeda.

Actually per Star Trek online, which I believe is considered canon, the Romulans have reproduced the technology for use as a weapon on their ships.

Since when is that game canon?

Not really, rather ground combat is under utilized and overly fixated on a narrow niche by Starfleet and its peers. On basic principals there's nothing wrong with using transporters to quickly move squads to and fro across the battlefield exactly where they are needed augmented by the level of battlefield awareness provided by tricorders/sensors. Execution is of course much more of a mixed bag and the system has vulnerability towards anyone who doesn't abide by the same ruleset. Hence the curiosity to see how they'd respond to a race that lives for ground combat.

Siege of AR-whatsits, anyone?

Yeah, other than your usual whataboutism and Trek whank I don't see an argument here.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

We are discussing their overall capabilities, which are far more impressive for Andromeda than for Trek.

I'm afraid you are in error. We were discussing Magog use of "pint-sized black holes" and the idea was raised, more elegantly by @S'task than myself, on how Treknology negated such weapons. Among others things that Federation ships can lower their mass seemingly at will.

Pfft, not really, it is more like Voyager is a huge hunk of heavy junk.
Or that number was taken when mass reduction was in effect.

I'll take that as your concession that Voyager has a better mass reduction tech then.

Nor is it likely the figure is for when Andromeda is using her Gravity field generator since per the wiki that is supposed to reduce the ship's mass to one kilogram.

The Coalition of Parts ship was orders of magnitude larger than Rommie, and could chase her in real and slipspace.

The ship was far larger than Rommie, no question. But you claimed that it was "super-maneuverable ship " when in the episode it barely seemed to maneuver at all. And compared to a Borg cube it was unexceptional to maybe even a little geriatric.

Since when is that game canon?

I could sworn I heard that claimed here since I've arrived but perhaps I was mistaken.

Siege of AR-whatsits, anyone?

Is a single datapoint, one which doesn't actually contradict anything I said.

Yeah, other than your usual whataboutism and Trek whank I don't see an argument here.

"whataboutism". You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Star Trek canon is actually quite fuzzy, officially there's no set rule and the writers just faff off and do whatever they want.

STARTREK.COM : Article

web.archive.org

Star Trek Online is in an especially odd position, it was considered canon for a long time and several of its ships have shown up in other shows that are considered canon like Picard so it's exceedingly difficult to say for sure unless the thread OP decides.


Note, however, that you don't need STO to pull out Thalaron weapons. The USS Dauntless has them in Star Trek: Prodigies episode 18 and there's not really any question that the shows are canon.

 

[Agent23]

Star Trek canon is actually quite fuzzy, officially there's no set rule and the writers just faff off and do whatever they want.

STARTREK.COM : Article

web.archive.org

Star Trek Online is in an especially odd position, it was considered canon for a long time and several of its ships have shown up in other shows that are considered canon like Picard so it's exceedingly difficult to say for sure unless the thread OP decides.


Note, however, that you don't need STO to pull out Thalaron weapons. The USS Dauntless has them in Star Trek: Prodigies episode 18 and there's not really any question that the shows are canon.

Ah, yes, screwing Trek worse than Roddenberry ever could.

Andromeda is the bigger, badder version of original Trek.

It was the original idea for a sequel to TOS, not TNG and the stuff that came in later.

So whatever trchnobabel Trek writers might pull off, well, Andromeda will always be superior.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Ah, yes, screwing Trek worse than Roddenberry ever could.

Andromeda is the bigger, badder version of original Trek.

It was the original idea for a sequel to TOS, not TNG and the stuff that came in later.

So whatever trchnobabel Trek writers might pull off, well, Andromeda will always be superior.

Andromeda may have had "future of Trek" in it's initial conception but it very much isn't canon that it's actually so. Claiming it is is comparable to claiming that some of Lucas's goofy initial notes on a napkin before he wrote the script to Star Wars are canon.

 

[Agent23]

Andromeda may have had "future of Trek" in it's initial conception but it very much isn't canon that it's actually so. Claiming it is is comparable to claiming that some of Lucas's goofy initial notes on a napkin before he wrote the script to Star Wars are canon.

You can view it however you want, for me Andromeda is a small glimpse of what Trek was supposed to be.

Ergo, I view Andromeda's tech level as superior to that of Trek.

It has faster FTL, more numerous and more powerful ships and can blow up stars for teh lulz and throw around black holes as weapons.

Trek and its oneshot Treknobabel pale in comparison to all that.

 

[Bear Ribs]

You can view it however you want, for me Andromeda is a small glimpse of what Trek was supposed to be.

Ergo, I view Andromeda's tech level as superior to that of Trek.

It has faster FTL, more numerous and more powerful ships and can blow up stars for teh lulz and throw around black holes as weapons.

Trek and its oneshot Treknobabel pale in comparison to all that.

We can both view it however we want. However, your view is non-canon and thus useless in the specific context of vs. debates.

 

[Agent23]

We can both view it however we want. However, your view is non-canon and thus useless in the specific context of vs. debates.

And Andromeda has consistantly shown much better military performance and technological superiority, from FTL speed to weapons, like the ability to throw around black holes and blow up stars.

The oneshot treknobable gimmicks of Trek have nothing on it.

 

[S'task]

OK, firstly.

@Agent23, you do not get to dismiss "one shot tech" from Trek. There is no rule on TS that mandates that. That is a holdover attitude from other VS forums that explicitly did that in order to make debating VS in Trek easier for other factions and as a specific nerf against Trek.

Secondly, even on those forums, technology that showed up in movies, such as Tharalon weapons, were never counted as "one shot" technology. "One shot" technology was considered a limitation against "tech of the week", IE, random technology that only showed up for one episode from the syndicated television shows. I have never seen it attempted to apply to technology from Trek movies as you have.

Long story short, you need to accept that you do not get to determine what is allowed from Star Trek in debates unless you start them. Your constant demands for limitations on Trek based on these old, frankly bullshit, restrictions from other forums of "no one shot technology" is getting old. Engage with people pointing out the actual capabilities of Star Trek with citations or stay out of these discussions.

 

[Agent23]

OK, firstly.

@Agent23, you do not get to dismiss "one shot tech" from Trek. There is no rule on TS that mandates that. That is a holdover attitude from other VS forums that explicitly did that in order to make debating VS in Trek easier for other factions and as a specific nerf against Trek.

Secondly, even on those forums, technology that showed up in movies, such as Tharalon weapons, were never counted as "one shot" technology. "One shot" technology was considered a limitation against "tech of the week", IE, random technology that only showed up for one episode from the syndicated television shows. I have never seen it attempted to apply to technology from Trek movies as you have.

Long story short, you need to accept that you do not get to determine what is allowed from Star Trek in debates unless you start them. Your constant demands for limitations on Trek based on these old, frankly bullshit, restrictions from other forums of "no one shot technology" is getting old. Engage with people pointing out the actual capabilities of Star Trek with citations or stay out of these discussions.

No, I am dismissing their one-shot treknobabel bullshit because it is not repeated performance, which means that it is just a silly op plot device the incompetent writers added for the problem of the month, then had to get rid of because it is OP.
Consistent performance is the key, not a one-time throwaway bullshit.
Or do I have to pull out the megajoules of particle energy nonsense from TNG?

Or space sonar.

Or the spore space travel network.

Trek is a bad joke where consistency is concerned, and most of the time it was written and directed by morons focusing on the " bullshit of the week" which they fixed with the one-shot wonder of the week, to be completely forgotten by next week.