United States 2nd Amendment Legal Cases and Law Discussion

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Well, Los Angeles has to pay the NRA for threatening businesses associated with it:
A federal court ordered Los Angeles to hand over more than $100,000 to the National Rifle Association after ruling that the city had violated the gun-rights group's First Amendment rights.

Federal district court judge Stephen Wilson struck down a city ordinance aimed at punishing prospective contractors with ties to the NRA as an infringement on the right to free speech and association. On Tuesday, he ordered city officials to pay for the Second Amendment group's attorney fees, which totaled nearly $150,000.

"In this case, the text of the Ordinance, the Ordinance's legislative history, and the concurrent public statements made by the Ordinance’s primary legislative sponsor evince a strong intent to suppress the speech of the NRA," Wilson ruled in December. "Even though the Ordinance only forces disclosure of activity that may not be expressive, the clear purpose of the disclosure is to undermine the NRA’s explicitly political speech."
 
Paper: The Right to Armed Self-Defense in the Light of Law Enforcement Abdication

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Here's a great article on how the 2nd Amendment is relevant, despite the Democrats saying we need to rely on the police:
Mainstream liberals, who had previously been strongly on the “rely exclusively on police and not on a personal firearm for protection” bandwagon, seem unwilling or unable to defend the importance, competence, and efficacy of the police in the face of allegations of institutional racism against American law enforcement. In short, the argument that Americans should trust the police to protect them, already greeted with skepticism if not derision in gun-rights circles, has been undermined further by the anti-police movement.

In short, conservative and libertarian guns rights proponents have long asserted that the existence of professional police forces is an inadequate substitute for a right to armed self-defense, and progressive advocates of gun control and even confiscation have, to a significant extent, now joined the anti-police bandwagon. Given that reality, there does not seem to be much of a constituency left for the argument that the right to armed self-defense has been rendered anachronistic by the development of professional law enforcement.

Perhaps even more significant, the events of Summer 2020 demonstrate that putting aside how one feels about the police from a theoretical or philosophical approach, law enforcement in fact often cannot be relied up to “do their jobs” in the face of significant disorder. As this article has shown, in cities around the country police forces failed to preserve law and order. In some cases they were ordered to stand down by elected officials who sympathized with the law breakers; in some cases because in an environment dominated by anti-police agitators, police supervisors thought it unwise to ratchet up police presence and activity; and in some cases, grassroots police officers, frustrated with the hostility shown by the public, quit, either permanently, or, as with the “Blue flu,” temporarily refused to do their jobs.
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
So here's some thing that could spring into a potential lawsuit:
On August 3rd, 2020, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“ATF”) issued Q® a formal Cease & Desist letter, notifying us that ATF has taken the position that the Q Honey Badger Pistol is a short-barreled rifle (“SBR”) regulated under the National Firearms Act (“NFA”). In response, Q has ceased all production of the Honey Badger Pistol, and submitted a comprehensive letter to ATF and the Department of Justice (“DOJ”) stating why we disagree with this classification[1]. Additionally, we have provided recommendations on how to address the firearms already in circulation. Q is seeking solutions that best protect you, the individual, and Q’s distribution network from falling out of compliance with ATF regulations, and federal law. At this time, Q has not received any definitive guidance from the ATF.

Not surprisingly, the main company behind pistol braces is siding against the ATF:
SB Tactical, in conjunction with the Firearms Regulatory Accountability Coalition, Inc., (FRAC), and the National Rifle Association, stands in solidarity with Q, LLC. and is disappointed by the recent ATF actions in classifying their Honey Badger pistol as a short-barreled rifle. This classification is based on a seemingly arbitrary set of criteria and promises to create unnecessary confusion and anxiety amongst millions of legal gun owners and the industry as a whole.

...

SB Tactical will, undoubtedly and unwaveringly, continue to support Q, LLC. We are tirelessly working with congressional leadership, the White House, and the Department of Justice to ensure that legal gun owners’ rights and the rights of manufacturers are not in jeopardy. It is our hope that the ATF’s latest policy interpretations, politically motivated or not, are corrected and that the confusion created can be reversed.

AR15.com was one of the first to get this info, so here's there thread on the subject, where new stuff might pop up at any time:
 

prinCZess

Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
Was about to reference the Honey Badger business here.
Near as I can figure (from experience with SB braces and the rambling bit the ATF stuff has in it), there's nothing distinct about it in comparison to other short-barreled AR pistols with a SB brace? The ATF letter doesn't even offer a fig-leaf of justification for it being targeted.
Which sure makes it look like a testing-of-the-waters for a broad ruling targeting braces in general.

So...bad-words to the ATF. Guess the concerns floating about some of the gun-rights groups about such a thing being in the works were spot-on.
ATF lacks authorization to make such rulings. Be it braces or bumpstocks or whatever-else. If changes need to be made to definitions because of the march of technology (or, novel idea, because we've figured out SOME THINGS AREN'T AS DANGEROUS AND DON'T NEED TO BE ILLEGAL OR AS DIFFICULT ANY LONGER *hint hint*), it's a job for Congress to take up.

On sidenote, post-hoc classification of all Q pistols in circulation as 'ackchually short-barreled-rifles' seems like it would violate the spirit of 'no ex-post-facto laws', though I'm sure the argument there is they were always SBRs and whatnot? *blech*
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
On sidenote, post-hoc classification of all Q pistols in circulation as 'ackchually short-barreled-rifles' seems like it would violate the spirit of 'no ex-post-facto laws', though I'm sure the argument there is they were always SBRs and whatnot? *blech*
The 2nd amendment was declared to cover naval artillery by the people who wrote it. Everything about gun laws since then has been pulled out of the bull's ass.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
The 2nd amendment was declared to cover naval artillery by the people who wrote it. Everything about gun laws since then has been pulled out of the bull's ass.
Heck until the 1920s when gangsters ruined everything with their love of automatic weapons in theory it you had the cash you could order an entire navy for yourself(mind you unless your name was JP Morgan or John D. Rockefeller or someone with roughly equivalent wealth it wouldn't be a decently sized not could you afford to maintain it)...minus the capital ships after the Washington Naval Treaty in 1922
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
People claim that the canons were allowed because it was war.. and that they were privateers
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
If I remember corectly there was a letter to a merchant who was worried about not being able to shoot back at pirates.
Oh I know, but that isn't an issue anymore so we don't need it/ Leftist on SB
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Was about to reference the Honey Badger business here.
Near as I can figure (from experience with SB braces and the rambling bit the ATF stuff has in it), there's nothing distinct about it in comparison to other short-barreled AR pistols with a SB brace? The ATF letter doesn't even offer a fig-leaf of justification for it being targeted.
Which sure makes it look like a testing-of-the-waters for a broad ruling targeting braces in general.
Some people have theorized that the ATF might be butthurt that the Honey Badger's brace design wasn't cleared with them.

There might even be some wider range sketchy dealings going on too:
ATF stopped doing at least some industry submitted product evaluations. My company has had a sample submitted for two years exactly on October 31st.

I know that for a fact, I don't guess that....

ATF is NOT calling the shots here and has not been calling the shots for a while (If you recall the Mandalay Bay incident they were not EVEN allowed to eval the weapons in Los Vegas)

I know that Representative Matt Gaetz Chief of Staff [Jillian (Lane) Wyant] has a copy of every pending ATF submission letter as I personally sent all to her and Matt last week.

DOJ is telling ATF to give no guidance and to seek a gotcha moment. It's what Representative Gaetz was getting at. ATF is being used as a political weapon (again FWIW). That they allow themselves to be used is the real problem and why they will garner what comes deservedly.

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It's kind of hard to have sympathy for folks whom in the best of times sending you stuff like this and still not answered me nor responded since this email:
ATF_love__1__jpg-1624366.JPG

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PeaceMaker 03

Well-known member
As to the honey badger and ATF.....
1- What reality does it make sense that unelected Bureaucrats are the final decision makers on constitutional protected and enumerated liberties? Especially in the idea that ATF has executive, legislative, and judicial power over the 2nd amendment?
2- Under USA vs. Miller, the short barreled shotgun could be taxed under NFA because it had no viable military use, according to SCOTUS.( Yeah they totally ignored the SBR in the ruling, which is a standard in the military even back in the 1930’s.)

3 - ATF is possibly going to have their face pushed in, because no one today can say an SBR has no military benefit to the militia(people). This also would put into question constitutionality of the ATF.
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
You know the ATF is a police organization. Maybe we should defund this police group until they get their act together?

What does the ATF do that some other government agency can't cover for?
 

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