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  1. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    If they could stop the Soviets that long it would be a huge game changer. Because at that point Soviet forces would have been bleed out without similarly bleeding out the Axis forces. Hitler wasn't necessarily the obstacle to peace, Stalin wanted more than Hitler would give up in 1943...
  2. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    We're really going round and round, saying the same things to one another. Unless there is some sort of different argument in your next reply we're just going to have to agree to disagree. The historical record doesn't bear that out. He apparently repeatedly said he'd prefer peace with Stalin...
  3. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    No worries, we all get busy. FDR would want to, but America is a democracy and labor strikes did cause the US a lot of problems during WW2; if the American people get pissed off enough a general strike would end US participation real quick. Hitler did want peace, but not at the terms Stalin...
  4. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    Oh no, it certainly was. Rather it was the US government's position that they wanted a Soviet victory both in Europe and Asia. James Forrestal's (Secretary of the Navy) unredacted diaries even show Truman saying it was probably a good thing that the Russians would dominate Europe for a few...
  5. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    In this scenario the war wouldn't last long enough for an A-bomb...which would mean Poland remains under Hitler's boot. What does that have to do with anything? The German navy was too far away for bombardment of frontline targets in Courland, I think you're thinking of Memel, which only held...
  6. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    There are human limits. Infantry being able to move through swamps and forests doesn't mean the Soviets could get artillery packed in those areas. For one thing the restricted front would prevent deployment of that amount of artillery or even as much as IOTL as they focused their guns in...
  7. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    Not sure if anyone is even interested, but the situation for Army Group North Ukraine in this scenario is quite interesting upon further reading. If AG-Center is able to pull back and not require reinforcement to hold their new line through 1944 or at least until October or November 1944 that...
  8. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    Not possible given the terrain. 420km was the most they ever achieved in 1945 in much more open terrain and even then only by going wheel to wheel. Of course then they weren't trying to fight through a river line and with forests and swamps in the way. Not going to really help given the...
  9. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    Don't be so sure of that. With a line 250km shorter they'd have freed up a 7 division reserve, anchored the line on a large river, and removed most of the partisans to their rear who were concentrated in the forests east of the Berezina river: There was no easy pockets that could be formed...
  10. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    Won't happen. FDR was repeatedly offered total surrender by Admiral Canaris in 1943 in exchange for keeping the Soviets east of the Vistula and it was ignored. Truman followed the FDR doctrine until 1946 vis-a-vis Stalin. Even if Patton started trouble the politicians would have smoothed...
  11. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    What does Putin have to do with anything? I don't listen to Putin about anything, wikipedia though I try to check the sources they use and also have other sources myself which confirm what wikipedia says on the subject: Outstanding book on the fight for Warsaw from July-November: The Soviets...
  12. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    Very different situation that also ignores the preceding Lvov-Sandomierz offensive, which was important to the later Romanian operation's success and would be heavily disrupted without a Soviet success in Bagration, since that operation siphoned off a lot of German reserves that otherwise would...
  13. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    Ok, not really going to change the equation much. Considering that only really happened in 1945 after many more defeats, especially the major one we're changing here, that's a non-factor in discussions about Stalingrad or Kursk. VG divisions were not third rate at all, they just didn't have...
  14. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    To help visualize what AG-Center's flexible defensive plan was that would be used ITTL: They'd fall back further East after this to straighten the line as needed once AG-North had a chance to pull back behind the Dvina.
  15. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    Which offensive would that be? It is highly unlikely that the Soviets would have been able to launch a Bagration level offensive again that soon nor is it possible that they'd be able to pull off a Bagration with the shortened lines that I mentioned since it would increase troop density too...
  16. sillygoose

    AG-Center retreats just before Bagration, avoids destruction

    POD: von Kluge avoids his car accident in October 1943 and stays in command of AG-Center. General Busch never takes command. IOTL the fighting through 1943 into 1944 around Smolensk and in Belarus was extremely heavy and brutal, so much so that the Soviets largely didn't talk about it because...
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