What could the various underspending on defence members of NATO afford if they met the 2% GDP spending requirement set by NATO

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
The question is in the title. What would the various nations in NATO that don't meet the 2% of their GDP that they're supposed to as per NATO bylaws be able to afford if they did so. Moreover how would you force them to increase their defense spending? Personally I would cut all logistical support that the members of NATO that met their requirements give them
 

Sixgun McGurk

Well-known member
They could afford an actual army. I would force them to spend by getting out of the alliance and only allying with countries that weren't a burden and had some utility to the USA. Honestly, the Soviets are long dead of old age. I don't care if the Russian Empire grows. They are natural allies against Asia.
 
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Aaron Fox

Well-known member
The thing is that while 2% GDP isn't much on paper, politically its significant, especially after a Europe that literally bled itself white within half a century. A lot of the money that would be put into the 2% GDP military budget was used to... paradoxically... improve the economy.

It turns out having a wide and viable economic 'floor' vastly improves economic activity, who knew?

The situation that would lead to everyone decreasing that 'economic floor' budget would have to be significant. Russia's current actions on the geopolitical state as its dominated by leaders who want to go back to the 'good old days of the USSR' and are more than willing to set the world aflame drops all pretenses would do it.

Another is the complete (we're talking Bronze Age Collapse complete here) collapse of international trade (the finicky bastard), which would necessitate the return to colonialism and imperialism to gain resources as trade is now all but impossible...
 

Tyzuris

Primarch to your glory& the glory of him on Earth!
The thing is that while 2% GDP isn't much on paper, politically its significant, especially after a Europe that literally bled itself white within half a century. A lot of the money that would be put into the 2% GDP military budget was used to... paradoxically... improve the economy.

It turns out having a wide and viable economic 'floor' vastly improves economic activity, who knew?

The situation that would lead to everyone decreasing that 'economic floor' budget would have to be significant. Russia's current actions on the geopolitical state as its dominated by leaders who want to go back to the 'good old days of the USSR' and are more than willing to set the world aflame drops all pretenses would do it.

Another is the complete (we're talking Bronze Age Collapse complete here) collapse of international trade (the finicky bastard), which would necessitate the return to colonialism and imperialism to gain resources as trade is now all but impossible...
And there is many other factors that affect nation's ability to defend itself than just pure budget. For instance people have to have something worthwhile to defend. As such in Finland in sixties and seventies there were a lot of focus on improving the civil society in areas like education, healthcare, infrastructure, government services, etc... and that certainly makes one more willing to pick up arms to defend the society that gives them something worth to fight for.

For instance if at current level we went US level GDP spending, it would reduce billions from other government branches or increase taxes a lot, and this would certainly reduce the willingness to fight for our country. Currently we have one of the highest rate of people wiling to take arms for their country.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
They don't spend because they aren't really afraid of the Russians. If they aren't afraid there is no reason for us to spend either. Money spent for no reason is money spent on corruption.
They should be afraid of China. Even though Nato may not be the best in that regard, it is better then nothing. Having the most powerful nations in a group would last longer then the ASEAN
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
They should be afraid of China. Even though Nato may not be the best in that regard, it is better then nothing. Having the most powerful nations in a group would last longer then the ASEAN
China is, despite everything, a mostly-sane player with oodles of baggage on the world stage right now. The real problem is Putin and his associates in Russia who are more than nostalgic for the return of the 'glory days of the USSR' and are more than willing to basically turn the world to ashes to do so, aka Grade A nostalgia. It must be noted that nostalgia of that magnitude tends to attract the mostly-insane.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
China is, despite everything, a mostly-sane player with oodles of baggage on the world stage right now. The real problem is Putin and his associates in Russia who are more than nostalgic for the return of the 'glory days of the USSR' and are more than willing to basically turn the world to ashes to do so, aka Grade A nostalgia. It must be noted that nostalgia of that magnitude tends to attract the mostly-insane.
Both are batshit insane. Let's not downplay it here
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Both are batshit insane. Let's not downplay it here
That really isn't the case when you get into geopolitics. China would be considered mentally disturbed in a cultural and collective psychology sense, but that is due to just how much bloody baggage it has. We're talking about one of the top three continuous cultures of the planet here, and that has a lot of shaping no matter what you say about it. When it goes geopolitical, they're well within the mostly-sane player category. All we really have to do is -essentially- keep China in the global economy and let that do the rest (i.e. make trade a far better alternative to 'expanding China's Borders').

Russia under Putin on the other hand... yeah my lack of words for describing Russia right now should clue you in on how insane Russia has become geopolitically. If you have 'Old World Blues' in an encyclopedia, you'll see Putin and his associates' faces plastered all over the page as examples... and personally, that is not going to cut what is happening in Russia right now.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
That really isn't the case when you get into geopolitics. China would be considered mentally disturbed in a cultural and collective psychology sense, but that is due to just how much bloody baggage it has. We're talking about one of the top three continuous cultures of the planet here, and that has a lot of shaping no matter what you say about it. When it goes geopolitical, they're well within the mostly-sane player category. All we really have to do is -essentially- keep China in the global economy and let that do the rest (i.e. make trade a far better alternative to 'expanding China's Borders').

Russia under Putin on the other hand... yeah my lack of words for describing Russia right now should clue you in on how insane Russia has become geopolitically. If you have 'Old World Blues' in an encyclopedia, you'll see Putin and his associates' faces plastered all over the page as examples... and personally, that is not going to cut what is happening in Russia right now.
Both are insane. There is a lot China ks doing tjat shows they are insane. Just not out there easy for everyone to see
 

Christi

Well-known member
Militaries that are not paper tigers. Germany’s own military said they couldn’t meet NATO obligations in leaked memos to the government. It was just a year or two ago we learn most of the German navy, Air Force and their tanks don’t work.
If you think I’m making this up.
On a recent trip to Lithuania, where about 450 German soldiers are stationed as part of a NATO mission to deter Russian aggression, U.S. officials were dismayed to discover Bundeswehr personnel communicating on unsecure mobile phones due to a shortage of secure radio equipment.
Fewer than 20 percent of Germany’s 68 Tiger combat helicopters and fewer than 30 percent of its 136 Eurofighter jets could fly in late 2018. Pilots, frustrated that they can’t fly, are quitting
On a mission to deter Russian agression, a mission not training, they literally could not find enough secure communication so German troops were using cell phones. There are no words for that.
80 percent of their helicopters don’t work. 70 percent of the fighters don’t work. These problems are just the tip of the iceberg. That’s is just insane.
 
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Sixgun McGurk

Well-known member
Militaries that are not paper tigers. Germany’s own military said they couldn’t meet NATO obligations In leaked memos to the government. It was just a year or two ago we learn most of the German navy, Air Force and their tanks don’t work.
If you think I’m making this up.

On a mission to deter Russian agression, a mission not training, they literally could not find enough secure communication so German troops were using cell phones. There are no words for that.
80 percent of their helicopters don’t work. 70 percent of the fighters don’t work. These problems are just the tip of the iceberg. That’s is just insane.
They're not afraid of the Russians. I'm not afraid of them either. I find ten thousand Zeta hitmen and MS-13 right here to be the more compelling enemy and would prefer US troops be deployed on the US border.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
They're not afraid of the Russians. I'm not afraid of them either. I find ten thousand Zeta hitmen and MS-13 right here to be the more compelling enemy and would prefer US troops be deployed on the US border.
Lot of Legal stuff there. National Guard can be deployed along the border, but federal troops can only stand guard, and be watch men there. A SGT in my unit when stationed at Ft Polk, was sent to the border to work with BP and all he was allowed to do was sit in a vehicle or stand outside and watch for people. They are also in full kit in the middle of the day.

US forces can not be deployed along the border or in the US at all without a lot of hoops being jumped through by the President.

Also, Border Patrol needs more people.
 

Sixgun McGurk

Well-known member
Lot of Legal stuff there. National Guard can be deployed along the border, but federal troops can only stand guard, and be watch men there. A SGT in my unit when stationed at Ft Polk, was sent to the border to work with BP and all he was allowed to do was sit in a vehicle or stand outside and watch for people. They are also in full kit in the middle of the day.

US forces can not be deployed along the border or in the US at all without a lot of hoops being jumped through by the President.

Also, Border Patrol needs more people.

Crooked political garbage. What do we do when the Zetas decide they want a senator from California in their pocket, run some gangbanger and then just kill the other candidates? They are more dangerous than the North Koreans and Chinese put together.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Crooked political garbage. What do we do when the Zetas decide they want a senator from California in their pocket, run some gangbanger and then just kill the other candidates? They are more dangerous than the North Koreans and Chinese put together.
You send in the Feds.
Look, the use of Federal troops on US Soil is a hard thing to get to happen, especially in something that involves them more then just acting as glorified mall cops. We have federal agencies such as te FBI, Marshalls, CBP/BP, ICE, DEA, etc. Hell even the guard can be deployed to do it. Federal troops of Active and reserve can not, unless there is deemed a worthy reason by Congress, or the president uses the Insurgency act, or the Patriot act.

They are not more dangerous then nK or the Chinese. Unless Gangs are like they are the Cartels in Mexico where they are doing drive bys in armored cars with machine guns on them, they wont be a threat to anything larger then the Police or the Feds.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Also, Border Patrol needs more people.
The thing is, it all goes down to money and if the States comply. Given that the rich have historically gone 'fuck you, I'm hoarding cash' leading to interesting bits of history including Justinian the Great of the East Roman (aka Byzantine) Empire allowing his tax collectors to torture and brand any noble or rich merchant not willing to pay their taxes (with compound interest!)*.

Another problem is that a lot of people here (and elsewhere) forget that money-making is a paradox. To make money, you have to spend money.

* Funny thing about compound interest, it was only created because you had rich people within the Byzantine/East Roman Empire that would make dragons look like they're willing to pay out portions of their hordes. That's right, it's the greedy rich that helped create compound interest!
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
China is, despite everything, a mostly-sane player with oodles of baggage on the world stage right now. The real problem is Putin and his associates in Russia who are more than nostalgic for the return of the 'glory days of the USSR' and are more than willing to basically turn the world to ashes to do so, aka Grade A nostalgia. It must be noted that nostalgia of that magnitude tends to attract the mostly-insane.


We'd all be better off if Putin and his inner circle were doing this purely for nostalgic reasons. The truth is far worse and far more dangerous. The truth is that ethnic Russians are dying. Their medical system collapsed with the Soviet Union, as did their apprenticeship programs. The younger demographics do not have the same number of engineers, scientists, and other skilled labor as what passes for their boomer generation does. And that generation is nearing the age of mortality (60s). And as they age not into the grave, the young generation that serves as their military personnel are going to be aging into their 30s and 40s.

The newfound Russian aggression is born not out of a desire for glory, but the desperation of oncoming death. Moscow's only hope is to expand its borders, because the borders that Russia has right now are horribly exposed to an invasion from the European plain. History has shown it through the Napoleonic Wars, WWI, and WWII that Europeans can and will invade from that direction. The only way the Russians can become secure in their geography is to move into linchpin states that they lost.

That means that if Russia is to truly be secure, they must secure the approaches to Russia. Most important are the European and Turkish approaches. By retaking Crimea, the Russians have secured one of the Turkish approaches. They have some security in Caucuses. If they want to be secure on the European front, then they must move to retake the states along the Baltic Sea Coast, as well as the space that runs down the Carpathian Mountain range, down to the Balkan Mountains.

And this is certainly a must for Russia now. The Ukraine incident impart assured that the Russians would approach the matter militarily. Russia could tolerate a neutral Ukraine so long as it paid homage to Moscow. It could not accept a Ukraine that was within the EU or NATO. Doing so would rob the Russians of Crimea and put you (just from Kiev) within an 11 hour drive to Moscow. And from Sumy it's about 9 hours. We're talking about NATO bases being anywhere from 600 to 900 km away from Moscow.

At a conservative 900 km (from around Kiev), an F-15 could reach Moscow in 28.8 minutes. At 600 km, it could reach in 19.2 minutes. An F-35 could do it in 45 to 30 minutes respectively. And that doesn't include things like cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, and future hypersonic missiles. Of which would probably overwhelm even the Russian S-400 defense systems.

The West supporting the coup against the Russian-backed government gave Moscow little choice but to take half of Ukraine. Most importantly, it could be done with minimal effort and risk. A strong ethnic Russian population within the region, military assets already present in Crimea, and of course, unmarked troops could be used to bolster the willing population in eastern Ukraine. Germany and other EU states that relied upon Russian gas would be less willing to halt Russia's advance.

And the point was made clear; this far and no further. The West has responded of course by fortifying western Ukraine, but how long that can hold is anyone's guess. With the economic downturn, the demographic downturn, and the sudden lack of American protection (not to mention markets), many European countries are going to think twice about putting the screws to Russian advancement.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
We'd all be better off if Putin and his inner circle were doing this purely for nostalgic reasons. The truth is far worse and far more dangerous. The truth is that ethnic Russians are dying. Their medical system collapsed with the Soviet Union, as did their apprenticeship programs. The younger demographics do not have the same number of engineers, scientists, and other skilled labor as what passes for their boomer generation does. And that generation is nearing the age of mortality (60s). And as they age not into the grave, the young generation that serves as their military personnel are going to be aging into their 30s and 40s.

The newfound Russian aggression is born not out of a desire for glory, but the desperation of oncoming death. Moscow's only hope is to expand its borders, because the borders that Russia has right now are horribly exposed to an invasion from the European plain. History has shown it through the Napoleonic Wars, WWI, and WWII that Europeans can and will invade from that direction. The only way the Russians can become secure in their geography is to move into linchpin states that they lost.

That means that if Russia is to truly be secure, they must secure the approaches to Russia. Most important are the European and Turkish approaches. By retaking Crimea, the Russians have secured one of the Turkish approaches. They have some security in Caucuses. If they want to be secure on the European front, then they must move to retake the states along the Baltic Sea Coast, as well as the space that runs down the Carpathian Mountain range, down to the Balkan Mountains.

And this is certainly a must for Russia now. The Ukraine incident impart assured that the Russians would approach the matter militarily. Russia could tolerate a neutral Ukraine so long as it paid homage to Moscow. It could not accept a Ukraine that was within the EU or NATO. Doing so would rob the Russians of Crimea and put you (just from Kiev) within an 11 hour drive to Moscow. And from Sumy it's about 9 hours. We're talking about NATO bases being anywhere from 600 to 900 km away from Moscow.

At a conservative 900 km (from around Kiev), an F-15 could reach Moscow in 28.8 minutes. At 600 km, it could reach in 19.2 minutes. An F-35 could do it in 45 to 30 minutes respectively. And that doesn't include things like cruise missiles, ballistic missiles, and future hypersonic missiles. Of which would probably overwhelm even the Russian S-400 defense systems.

The West supporting the coup against the Russian-backed government gave Moscow little choice but to take half of Ukraine. Most importantly, it could be done with minimal effort and risk. A strong ethnic Russian population within the region, military assets already present in Crimea, and of course, unmarked troops could be used to bolster the willing population in eastern Ukraine. Germany and other EU states that relied upon Russian gas would be less willing to halt Russia's advance.

And the point was made clear; this far and no further. The West has responded of course by fortifying western Ukraine, but how long that can hold is anyone's guess. With the economic downturn, the demographic downturn, and the sudden lack of American protection (not to mention markets), many European countries are going to think twice about putting the screws to Russian advancement.
The US is moving closer to Russia militarily. We are putting bases and more units in Poland, to allow for a place o defend and have a position to attack should the need arise, We are also planning on reinforcing the Blakans and the Black sea.

We are going to be adding to the defense of Western Europe.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
Militaries that are not paper tigers. Germany’s own military said they couldn’t meet NATO obligations in leaked memos to the government. It was just a year or two ago we learn most of the German navy, Air Force and their tanks don’t work.
If you think I’m making this up.

On a mission to deter Russian agression, a mission not training, they literally could not find enough secure communication so German troops were using cell phones. There are no words for that.
80 percent of their helicopters don’t work. 70 percent of the fighters don’t work. These problems are just the tip of the iceberg. That’s is just insane.

While those are problems, those are also problems that can be addressed with relative ease and quickness. The real issue is German dependency upon gas coupled with relative German weakness in inventory:

German Ground Assets:

Personnel
212,650 military personnel
182,650 active
30,000 reserve

Land Power
245 tanks
4,583 armored vehicles
108 self-propelled artillery
38 rocket projectors

Air Power
128 Fighters (~38.4 work)
74 Dedicated Attack Fighters (~22.2 work)
71 Transports
26 Trainers
40 Special Mission Aircraft
386 Helicopters (~77.2 work)
56 Attack Helicopters (~11.2 work)

Naval Power
9 frigates
5 corvettes
6 submarines
12 mine warfare


and compare that to Russian military power:


Russia

Personnel
~3 million military personnel
~1 million active
~2 million reserve

Land Power
12,950 tanks
27,038 armored vehicles
6,083 self-propelled artillery
4,465 towed artillery
3,860 rocket projectors

Air Power
873 fighters
742 dedicated attack fighters
424 transports
497 trainers
127 special mission aircraft
1,522 helicopters
531 attack helicopters

Naval Power
10 frigates
79 corvettes
62 submarines
48 mine warfare
1 aircraft carrier
16 destroyers
51 patrol


Now, it's more complicated than that; Germany would likely be assisting Poland and a couple of other powers in a realistic confrontation with Russia, but the mere fact that Germany needs Russian gas, that Germany has a low inventory, and what it does have is not up to par means that Russia can quickly conquer other nearby countries before Germany could theoretically respond. If the Russians were to make a move for Poland today, there is very little the Germans could do about it.
 

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