Jordan Peterson or something whatever thread.

Punch Card Girl said:
There is a strong distinction between rejecting individualism to uphold communal bonds and endorsing totalitarian tyranny. Your words are a blatant endorsement of totalitarian tyranny. A system which denies exceptions and differences and ignores collaborative decisionmaking of social communities of interest, land and profession is nothing less than the system of prisons and graves.
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Just so you know, I'm channeling my inner crazy pseudo-SJW, I.....had a sort of phase years back that helps me sort of get into this sort of thinking at times and sort of better understand why some people become so addicted to receiving the shallow attention and approval of others and claiming to be so much better than they actually are or trying to be.

Would even have picked the Butch Skrull on my avatar over the one I actually truly liked on the basis of my pseudo-false-guilt
 
Ioseb Jughashvili said:
Why should he who murders be let off because it was too hard?

He shouldn't.
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Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
 
Punch Card Girl said:
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
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Aye.

And the law says punish the guilty. When I refer to the expediancy of letting them off I'm talking about men like Guderian, Pinochet and the perpetrators of the Guatemalan genocide of the Maya, who deserve justice done upon them by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Yet went free because politics claimed it wasn't worth it.
 
Ioseb Jughashvili said:
Aye.

And the law says punish the guilty. When I refer to the expediancy of letting them off I'm talking about men like Guderian, Pinochet and the perpetrators of the Guatemalan genocide of the Maya, who deserve justice done upon them by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Yet went free because politics claimed it wasn't worth it.
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Which is better:
To let one guilty go free or to jail 10 innocents
 
Ioseb Jughashvili said:
Aye.

And the law says punish the guilty. When I refer to the expediancy of letting them off I'm talking about men like Guderian, Pinochet and the perpetrators of the Guatemalan genocide of the Maya, who deserve justice done upon them by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Yet went free because politics claimed it wasn't worth it.
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Guderian was a soldier and while his actions were morally distasteful, I think it would be hard to build a case against him.

Pinochet was a hero of anticommunism who intervened to uphold the moral order of the Chilean Republic against a kind of elected totalitarianism in Allende which had the objective of the complete control of the country and its transformation into a communist dictatorship.

As for the perpetrators of the Mayan genocide--that was a genocide, and it was an evil, and its perpetrators were wrong. But the order and harmony of a country is more important than the justice of a single family or a group of families. And in particular I think Carl was arguing something different entirely, that it really was an imperative to go after all criminals rather than risk one getting away--when law and mercy teach us it is better and wiser to let many of the guilty go than condemn one innocent. I feel you have changed the conversation, though I have provided an answer to both conversations. Err always on the side of mercy and harmony, why isn't that so hard? At the grand scale that means sometimes people may be let go in the interests of social health, and on the small scale that means the guilty may sometimes be let go to protect the innocent. In both cases, it's always better to let the guilty go than hurt a single innocent.
 
Punch Card Girl said:
Guderian was a soldier and while his actions were morally distasteful, I think it would be hard to build a case against him.

Pinochet was a hero of anticommunism who intervened to uphold the moral order of the Chilean Republic against a kind of elected totalitarianism in Allende which had the objective of the complete control of the country and its transformation into a communist dictatorship.

As for the perpetrators of the Mayan genocide--that was a genocide, and it was an evil, and its perpetrators were wrong. But the order and harmony of a country is more important than the justice of a single family or a group of families. And in particular I think Carl was arguing something different entirely, that it really was an imperative to go after all criminals rather than risk one getting away--when law and mercy teach us it is better and wiser to let many of the guilty go than condemn one innocent. I feel you have changed the conversation, though I have provided an answer to both conversations. Err always on the side of mercy and harmony, why isn't that so hard? At the grand scale that means sometimes people may be let go in the interests of social health, and on the small scale that means the guilty may sometimes be let go to protect the innocent. In both cases, it's always better to let the guilty go than hurt a single innocent.
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1 - Following orders isn't a excuse but I suppose I see your point.

2 - Kindly go shove someting pointy up your rear end. Thats the sort of crap I expect from Breitbart not people with functioning brains.

3 - The guilty deserve to have justice done unto them. I can forgive, I will not forget.
 
Beginning of the derail
To expand on Pinochet.

By supporting him you support the throwing of people out of helicopters, disapereance of families and the raping of people with dogs.

@Punch Card Girl , if you can find it in yourself to support that, it says more than I need to.
 
Ioseb Jughashvili said:
1 - Following orders isn't a excuse but I suppose I see your point.

2 - Kindly go shove someting pointy up your rear end. Thats the sort of crap I expect from Breitbart not people with functioning brains.

3 - The guilty deserve to have justice done unto them. I can forgive, I will not forget.
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I am an anti-communist to the death, Sir. Sometimes obedience to the higher law of God or to the Nation require extraordinary actions. Pinochet did nothing wrong, and his voluntary resumption of constitutional order proved it.

The guilty do not deserve justice; the victims deserve amends, in the interests of preserving social order. Ancient law well understood the distinction. Only modern social theory has muddied it. By extension, substituting the justice process for amends by society to the wronged when that is in the best interests of society is a right and prerogative of society.
 
Beginning of the derail
Ioseb Jughashvili said:
To expand on Pinochet.

By supporting him you support the throwing of people out of helicopters, disapereance of families and the raping of people with dogs.

@Punch Card Girl , if you can find it in yourself to support that, it says more than I need to.
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The only accusations that have ever been proved as part of the intentional efforts of the junta are the executions of three thousand communists and their fellow-travelers. A very small number. A similar anti-communist action in Indonesia killed 500,000 people and yet you never hear about it because you leftists don’t seem to care about Soekarno, perhaps because Indonesian ideology wasn’t doctrinaire enough for you. Your hypocrisy and selective memory condemns you. The helicopters by the way are something done by another junta with much less grounds for legitimacy, and often conflated.

Your communist revolutions have destroyed the spirituality of a hundred countries and murdered sixty million people. Against your satanic death cult, harsh measures are sometimes the only way to win.
 
Beginning of the derail
Punch Card Girl said:
The only accusations that have ever been proved as part of the intentional efforts of the junta are the executions of three thousand communists and their fellow-travelers. A very small number. A similar anti-communist action in Indonesia killed 500,000 people and yet you never hear about it because you leftists don’t seem to care about Soekarno, perhaps because Indonesian ideology wasn’t doctrinaire enough for you. Your hypocrisy and selective memory condemns you. The helicopters by the way are something done by another junta with much less grounds for legitimacy, and often conflated.

Your communist revolutions have destroyed the spirituality of a hundred countries and murdered sixty million people. Against your satanic death cult, harsh measures are sometimes the only way to win.
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God, I do love it when anti-communist go mask off.

Not that it's like, endearing or anything, but that it helps really hammer in to comrades that people like you really do want to murder us, and to always be vigilant for it.

Lot of the time Comrades assume the best in people, which is dangerous for them
 
Thread Derail
I accept the argument that Allende was trying to subvert the Chilèan constitution and needed to go, and I'd give Pinochet full credit if that's all he did. But some of the things done afterward? Fighting Communists isn't an excuse, at least, it's not to me. Imprison them if they're threatening to start a civil war? Fine. Disarm, understandable. But torturing them, no. You cannot continue to claim the moral high ground when you turn to torture. You've forfeited it, which is what Pinochet's junta did.
 
Realm said:
God, I do love it when anti-communist go mask off.

Not that it's like, endearing or anything, but that it helps really hammer in to comrades that people like you really do want to murder us, and to always be vigilant for it.

Lot of the time Comrades assume the best in people, which is dangerous for them
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The history of Communism doesn't allow for any throwing of stones, and I've heard and seen plenty of "Comrades" fantasizing about murdering their opponents.
 
Big Steve said:
I accept the argument that Allende was trying to subvert the Chilèan constitution and needed to go, and I'd give Pinochet full credit if that's all he did. But some of the things done afterward? Fighting Communists isn't an excuse, at least, it's not to me. Imprison them if they're threatening to start a civil war? Fine. Disarm, understandable. But torturing them, no. You cannot continue to claim the moral high ground when you turn to torture. You've forfeited it, which is what Pinochet's junta did.
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Under the colour of law as sanctioned by the Chilean congress. It may have been an excess, but you must shoot people to end the threat of the bolshevik atheist tyranny. I will condemn individual actions and people but I will always defend the Pinochet regime as an act of Necessity.
 
Big Steve said:
The history of Communism doesn't allow for any throwing of stones, and I've heard and seen plenty of "Comrades" fantasizing about murdering their opponents.
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You'd be right, except for the fact that our entire cultural frame in the west is the one you are espousing, and no one seems to remember the atrocities committed by anticommunist forces, still embraced and vaporized today.

Even communists tend to forget them, and not realise the significance of our opponents embracing a mass murderer who pioneered torture techniques against union organizers and their families
 
Realm said:
God, I do love it when anti-communist go mask off.

Not that it's like, endearing or anything, but that it helps really hammer in to comrades that people like you really do want to murder us, and to always be vigilant for it.

Lot of the time Comrades assume the best in people, which is dangerous for them
Click to expand...
Realm said:
You'd be right, except for the fact that our entire cultural frame in the west is the one you are espousing, and no one seems to remember the atrocities committed by anticommunist forces, still embraced and vaporized today.

Even communists tend to forget them, and not realise the significance of our opponents embracing a mass murderer who pioneered torture techniques against union organizers and their families
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You say that so blithely while ignoring the people massacred for owning land, for praying, for being monks and nuns, for being successful according to the rules of their society, for refusing to give up religion, for minor criticism of their leaders, for not wanting to starve to death, for refusing to give up the fruits of their labour, and simply even for believing in a slightly different flavour of death cult than you do. Sixty million. Conservatively.

And your union organisers and their families were committed communists actively working to bring more of that killing about.
 
Punch Card Girl said:
You say that so blithely while ignoring the people massacred for owning land, for praying, for being monks and nuns, for being successful according to the rules of their society, for refusing to give up religion, for minor criticism of their leaders, for not wanting to starve to death, for refusing to give up the fruits of their labour, and simply even for believing in a slightly different flavour of death cult than you do. Sixty million. Conservatively.

And your union organisers and their families were committed communists actively working to bring more of that killing about.
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Sure, the history of communism is full of horror and failure, and requires study to avoid committing the same horrors anew.

At least I don't embrace Stalin as a hero of the people and say he was right for killing Kulaks and Reactionaries. Fuck off with your moralizing, I'm not the one saying you deserve to die for the actions of your ideological kinsmen
 
Realm said:
Sure, the history of communism is full of horror and failure, and requires study to avoid committing the same horrors anew.

At least I don't embrace Stalin as a hero of the people and say he was right for killing Kulaks and Reactionaries. Fuck off with your moralizing, I'm not the one saying you deserve to die for the actions of your ideological kinsmen
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And so, Sir, or shall I say, Kamerade, we return to the same tired old canard of “my version of the bolshevik atheist death cult WILL BE DIFFERENT!”
 
Punch Card Girl said:
And so, Sir, or shall I say, Kamerade, we return to the same tired old canard of “my version of the bolshevik atheist death cult WILL BE DIFFERENT!”
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And so, Sir, or should I say, anti-revolutionary, we return to the same tired old canard of "my version of the right wing death squads WILL BE THE EXACT SAME"

At least I have the fucking self aware to be ashamed of my horrors, instead of declaring grandly "they were worth it and I'll do them again"
 
You're skirting the edge of 1f here.
Realm said:
And so, Sir, or should I say, anti-revolutionary, we return to the same tired old canard of "my version of the right wing death squads WILL BE THE EXACT SAME"

At least I have the fucking self aware to be ashamed of my horrors, instead of declaring grandly "they were worth it and I'll do them again"
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They came on again in the same old way, and we saw them off again in the same old way. Kamerade.
 
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