Hamas Launches Offensive Against Southern Israel

Removing terrorist vermin from your country is an understandable goal, for which I can have little other than sympathy. Since the terrorists in question enjoy near-unanimous support from the Arab (so-called "Palestinian") populace, the only durable solution is to remove that entire populace from the afflicted region, for all time.

Israel being the ancestral land of the Jews, and thus being rightfully theirs, we may conclude that the Jews have the right to enact such a removal. Indeed, their politicians have a duty to their nation to enact it. This means: Israel may, and should, remove every single muslim from its borders.

Out of curiosity, what would you (and anyone else in favor of mass-exiling the inhabitants of Gaza) say to someone proposing we should dispossess a bunch of Americans from their homes in exchange for giving back a Native American tribe their ‘ancestral land’ back? Or inset any other similar group. Such as, say Poland being forced to give land back to Germans.

And if not, how’s that different from what Israel wants to do now and did during its founding? Beside the obvious answer of 'well, now Hamas makes it different'. It’s not as if the Jews who moved into that part of the world had the ‘decency’ to conquer the land themselves; they were given it by others.
 
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How so? The civilians didn't commit said atrocities and Hamas has a totalitarian control of the Gaza strip. Also what has been the casualty ratio in the last 30 years of this conflict? If recall correctly, there is a good chance much of that casualty ratio were civvies.
This also comes as hypocritical considering Israeli governments willingly helped an hereditary state who regularly murdered, tortured and raped anyone that they could gets their hands on in the Caucasus Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict could impact the Israeli-Russian relationship — especially in Syria - Breaking Defense which acts in the same way as Hamas does. Only difference is : Hamas is a religious regime and Baku's regime is a pan-Turkic regime.
For the same reasons why no one talked about "the plight of poor civilians in Germany and Japan" in 1945.
On top of that, here we are dealing with a militant faction that prides itself on using human shields and indoctrinating the civilians to do it willingly. Geneva convention? More like Geneva handbook of cool tricks for warfare.
And outside of random ass rumors in propaganda media i don't think AZ was caught doing anything near the shit Hamas did in this one event.
Out of curiosity, what would you (and anyone else in favor of mass-exiling the inhabitants of Gaza) say to someone proposing we should dispossess a bunch of Americans from their homes in exchange for giving back a Native American tribe their ‘ancestral land’ back? Or inset any other similar group. Such as, say Poland being forced to give land back to Germans.

And if not, how’s that different from what Israel wants to do/did during its founding? Beside the obvious answer of 'well, Hamas makes it different'. It’s not as if the Jews who moved into that part of the world had the ‘decency’ to conquer the land themselves; they were given it by others.
It does happen when someone loses a war, especially one they started for own benefit yet lost. After all that's exactly how Poland got this land in the first place as it had some old historical claims to it too. Hell, should we perhaps ask you about your position on who should own certain contested lands in Ukraine?

In this situation, it's the Arabs who lost a war, or more like at least 3 wars, so it's them who would normally be expected to make concessions, instead of crumpling up the laws of war, stomping on them, and throwing an everlasting tantrum.
 
Out of curiosity, what would you (and anyone else in favor of mass-exiling the inhabitants of Gaza) say to someone proposing we should dispossess a bunch of Americans from their homes in exchange for giving back a Native American tribe their ‘ancestral land’ back? Or inset any other similar group. Such as, say Poland being forced to give land back to Germans.

And if not, how’s that different from what Israel wants to do/did during its founding? Beside the obvious answer of 'well, Hamas makes it different'. It’s not as if the Jews who moved into that part of the world had the ‘decency’ to conquer the land themselves; they were given it by others.
If you honestly beleive that, you know nothing of 1948 Palestine war. The Jews fought and died to retake their homeland; nobody "gave it" to them.
 
And if not, how’s that different from what Israel wants to do now and did during its founding? Beside the obvious answer of 'well, now Hamas makes it different'. It’s not as if the Jews who moved into that part of the world had the ‘decency’ to conquer the land themselves; they were given it by others.
Israel conquered the land, it was not "given".
There was never a palestinian nation.
The territory was held by multi ethnic empires (british and before them the ottomans).

jews, christians, muslims, hindus, druuzi, beduin, and various other peoples lived in those multi ethnic empires for many generations.

Many jews migrated there under the multi ethnic empires.
The UN did not "give" jews arab land. UN tried to split up the existing population and land up, and the split favored the arabs (they got more land per capita. and better land too).

And UN only did it because jewish and arab terrorists both scared away the british who were too soft handed to actually clamp down and rule their conquered territory.

The very day that the british left (and thus the UN "division") was declared, war started (where all surrounding nations vowed to destroy israel and conquer the land). a war which israel won.

And israel didn't expel all the muslims from their conquered lands (they should have, but didn't). If they had expelled them there would be 0% muslim arab population in israel now instead of 30%.

some of the muslims stayed and became israel citizens. some escaped to surrounding countries. of those countries, some just absorbed them. While egypt put them all in concentration camps, which later became the "palestinian". and after decades of being under egyptian rule they ended up back in israel territory when israel won a war against egypt.

At no point ever did european or american soldiers come over to conquer the land for israelies.
 
And UN only did it because jewish and arab terrorists both scared away the british who were too soft handed to actually clamp down and rule their conquered territory.
Speaking of. In israel schools they teach that "UN gave us israel" too. Part of the oligarch's globalist agenda really. Gotta submit to the UN, because they are the good guys and we owe them for "giving" our great grandparents PART of their already owned lands and then stepping back and doing absolutely nothing when it resulted in a brutal and bloody war of survival.
 
Speaking of. In israel schools they teach that "UN gave us israel" too. Part of the oligarch's globalist agenda really. Gotta submit to the UN, because they are the good guys and we owe them for "giving" our great grandparents PART of their already owned lands and then stepping back and doing absolutely nothing when it resulted in a brutal and bloody war of survival.
If you consider UN resolutions in more modern times and Israeli attitude to them, suddenly that theory makes no sense.
 
Israel conquered the land, it was not "given".
There was never a palestinian nation.
The territory was held by multi ethnic empires (british and before them the ottomans).

jews, christians, muslims, hindus, druuzi, beduin, and various other peoples lived in those multi ethnic empires for many generations.

Many jews migrated there under the multi ethnic empires.
The UN did not "give" jews arab land. UN tried to split up the existing population and land up, and the split favored the arabs (they got more land per capita. and better land too).

And UN only did it because jewish and arab terrorists both scared away the british who were too soft handed to actually clamp down and rule their conquered territory.

The very day that the british left (and thus the UN "division") was declared, war started (where all surrounding nations vowed to destroy israel and conquer the land). a war which israel won.

And israel didn't expel all the muslims from their conquered lands (they should have, but didn't). If they had expelled them there would be 0% muslim arab population in israel now instead of 30%.

some of the muslims stayed and became israel citizens. some escaped to surrounding countries. of those countries, some just absorbed them. While egypt put them all in concentration camps, which later became the "palestinian". and after decades of being under egyptian rule they ended up back in israel territory when israel won a war against egypt.

At no point ever did european or american soldiers come over to conquer the land for israelies.

The more you know. Thank you.
 
The problem with that is that none of the arab nations are willing to accept them.

Plus, a big reason why they are so radicalized is that we let them take over gaza and enact multi generaitonal brainwashing and purging of any non believers.

So sending them to other arab nations (Who have mostly been destabilized by the west by now) risks them taking over and expanding their organization massively.

Germany in 1945 wasn't exactly willing to receive a stream of expelled people from East Prussia and environs, either. Saying "no" just wasn't offered as an option.

In much the same way, what capacity does, say, Syria have to resist a similar action presently?

To elaborate, my plan would boil down to the following:


1. Complete military defeat and occupation of all Palestinian territories.

2. Complete military defeat of Lebanon.

3. Complete integration of the Golan Heights into Israel proper, with the regionn in question to be further expanded as needed to serve strategic defensive needs.

4. Expulsion of all muslims from Israel and Lebanon, into Syria.

5. Expulsion of all Christian Arabs from Israel to Lebanon, the former to be structly defined as a Jewish state, an the latter to be strictly defined as a Christian state.

6. The coastal region of Syria to be carved off to become an Alewite state.

7. A Druze state to be established, extending from the Druze heartland to the Lebanese border, ths forming a buffer state that lies between the Golan Heights and Damascus.

8. Let the muslim Arabs sort it out amongst themselves; Israel has a nuclear umbrella and should make clear that the response to any attacks will be... disproportionate, as a matter of standing policy.

9. In the event that Egypt flips out and does something stupid, punish them by annexing the Sinai (expelling all Muslims therefrom), and furthermore: placing the Suez under international control forever.


Obviously, this would require a will to act that regrettable does not exist at present. So I fully expect that the wound will continue to fester, ultimately causing far more suffering than the above would entail. Certainly, what I propose would be harsh and violent and even monstrous-- but it would end the problem for good. Thus preventing a vast amount of future suffering.

(You may note that what I have outlined here is virtually idenyical to what -- as I've said about a million times -- should have been done after the First World War. I would have spared us a century of trouble, at the least, if they'd just done it like this back then.)



Out of curiosity, what would you (and anyone else in favor of mass-exiling the inhabitants of Gaza) say to someone proposing we should dispossess a bunch of Americans from their homes in exchange for giving back a Native American tribe their ‘ancestral land’ back? Or inset any other similar group. Such as, say Poland being forced to give land back to Germans.

These two questions are a bit wide-ranging. I'll go one by one, in good faith.


1a. Insofar as there are concrete treaties with defined Native American tribes; and the USA has violated these treates; and the tribe in question has conversely not violated them: these tribes deserve the treaties in question to be honoured. If this involves stolen land, they are entitled to its return.

1b. Native American reservations (or differently-named but legally equivalent entities) ought, in my view, be allowed to unilaterally secede and form their own countries, without requiring any kind of permission a priori.

Note that many Native peoples fought each other for time immemorial before European settlers arrived, constantly taking land from each other. Their own conquests are no more or less valid than those by the Europeans. This is why I stress that only treaties must be honoured. After all, if the European conquest is invalid... then so is every conquest between Native Americans, and thus most present-day "claimants" are in fact the descendants of other Johnny-Come-Latelies who themselves stole the land from some different chump!

Comparing this to Israel: the argument of some defenders of "Palestine" is that the muslims conquered the region, and that they settled it, and therefore they have a claim. By that same logic, the Jews conquering it right back after the World Wars is equally valid, leading to the conclusion that the Jews own the land anyway, by right of conquest if nothing else. As such: if you go by ancestral possession and the land belongs to the oldest inhabitants with a traceable claim, Irael belongs to the Jews. If you go by right of conquest... it belongs to the Jews.


2a. The Polish-German situation has been settled, and very neatly so. Germans behaved like beasts to the Poles, and then they lost, and the Poles were compensated (in part, by gaining disputed land). This has been accepted as reasonably fair under the circumstances, by both parties. I see no reason to reverse this, nor grounds to do so. At least not for as long as both sides abide by their final settlement. (If Poland attacks Germany tomorrow and starts genociding, that might very well end up having territorial implications to Poland's detriment; and rightfully so.)

2b. I have noted, however, that some Poles have recently called for the final post-war settlement to be abrogated. That is: they want more money to be squeezed out of Germany. As I said when this was discussed: that calls the settlement into question, and as such: if Poland wants additional billions from Germany, it will also have to give the land back that it gained after the Second World War. This is because the settlement is either final, or it isn't. And if you cancel it, you cancel all of it.

Since I consider the expulsion of muslim Arabs from Israel as being reasonably equivalent to the expulsion of Germans after the war (meaning: hardly nice, but suitably definitive, without slaughtering millions), I also feel that this settlement must be definitive. Meaning that if the Arab nations abide by it and leave Israel alone, Israel must leave them in peace also. No meddling, no funny business. All should mind their own business.
 
1. Complete military defeat and occupation of all Palestinian territories.

2. Complete military defeat of Lebanon.

3. Complete integration of the Golan Heights into Israel proper, with the regionn in question to be further expanded as needed to serve strategic defensive needs.

4. Expulsion of all muslims from Israel and Lebanon, into Syria.

5. Expulsion of all Christian Arabs from Israel to Lebanon, the former to be structly defined as a Jewish state, an the latter to be strictly defined as a Christian state.
I think your plan does a lot more than is needed.

Effectively, only Gaza actually needs to be dealt with. Fatah, though terrorists, are terrorists more in the Taliban sense than the ISIS sense: they aren't a death cult. They show up to negotiations. Etc.

Personally, I'd handle Gaza in a permanent way. There's a few options, the least of which is putting Fatah in control of Gaza (who will likely go about executing Hamas similarly to how Hamas executed Fatah). A better plan is annexing Gaza City (at which point the lack of tunnels suddenly makes it significantly less of a threat).

Then, what you do for the rest of Palestine is the following, stolen from Bret Weinstein: whenever Palestine launches rockets, have a ribbon cutting ceremony and annex a little bit of land. Have a list for how much land each terrorist action will annex.

Also, have a thing where if Palestine can go some number of years without terrorist attacks, they get more freedoms, but it completely resets upon terrorist attacks. Eventually they actually get a state (something like a decade), made up of whatever territory is left, but even then the policy of annexing will still hold.

Critically, this becomes your retaliation, not firing back at the rockets. Why? Because now you've changed the game theory. Terrorists want to die, and have their families killed. Now resistance does not achieve this anymore.

This also solves the settlement problems that exist currently, as you can annex those first.


Also, your plan directly screws Israel's current wincon: get peace with Saudi Arabia, and build ties with Arab countries by pointing to Iran as a threat. If Israel actually starts getting allies in the Arab world, then it will eventually be able to solve the palestinian problem.
 
Nah, old ways are the best ways.

Crush them.

Break them.

Put them under the Israeli yoke.

Cast what remains of the defiant into the sea.

Edit: By the way, in a very late response to that “Moloch” character being brought up earlier…I’ve always found it amusing that the ”it’s da Joos” crowd seem to think the profoundly monotheistic Jews worship a Canaanite/Phoenician God. The Canaanites of course being the mortal enemy of the Hebrews those thousands of years ago.
 
I think your plan does a lot more than is needed.

Effectively, only Gaza actually needs to be dealt with. Fatah, though terrorists, are terrorists more in the Taliban sense than the ISIS sense: they aren't a death cult. They show up to negotiations. Etc.

Personally, I'd handle Gaza in a permanent way. There's a few options, the least of which is putting Fatah in control of Gaza (who will likely go about executing Hamas similarly to how Hamas executed Fatah). A better plan is annexing Gaza City (at which point the lack of tunnels suddenly makes it significantly less of a threat).

Then, what you do for the rest of Palestine is the following, stolen from Bret Weinstein: whenever Palestine launches rockets, have a ribbon cutting ceremony and annex a little bit of land. Have a list for how much land each terrorist action will annex.

Also, have a thing where if Palestine can go some number of years without terrorist attacks, they get more freedoms, but it completely resets upon terrorist attacks. Eventually they actually get a state (something like a decade), made up of whatever territory is left, but even then the policy of annexing will still hold.

Critically, this becomes your retaliation, not firing back at the rockets. Why? Because now you've changed the game theory. Terrorists want to die, and have their families killed. Now resistance does not achieve this anymore.

This also solves the settlement problems that exist currently, as you can annex those first.


Also, your plan directly screws Israel's current wincon: get peace with Saudi Arabia, and build ties with Arab countries by pointing to Iran as a threat. If Israel actually starts getting allies in the Arab world, then it will eventually be able to solve the palestinian problem.

I actually feel that my own proposal is rather limited in scope, and solves the local issue, but not the overall one regarding the islamic world. I could outline a more encompassing outline, but that would be further removed from the current political realities, and would also move a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

My overall view of these kinds of things, however, is that incremental, long-term, "be reasonable" plans rarely work. They can work, but it's a huge risk. They inherently require sustained will. The commitment to their implementation must last for decades, unwavering. This is rarely possible. The outcome of such efforts (although, to be clear, I rather like the idea for its subtlety and its well-crafted "economics") is most probably that commitment will waver as it begins to work. At that point, the Israeli left will say: "See, they are humans, just like us! We should sop being bullies!" -- And then, they'll soon falter. Annexations will stop, because "that policy was inhumane". In return, terrorism will be opportune again, since it no longer has the draconian disincentives.

That is the danger of a "gentle" and "slow" approach.

My proposal, conversely, requires a greater degree of commitment, but only once. When it is done, it is done. Reversing it will be nigh-impossible. No more realistic than Germany getting back Gdańsk.

In short: make it short. Make short work of it. Don't waver, don't waffle. Get the job done, and get it done completely. Leave no open questions, leave no loose ends. That's rarely as subtle or as humane, but it sure is final. Which means that you no longer need to beg Arab countries "plz be friens now". You don't need them at all. Let them deal with their own shit. And if they fling shit across the border? Tactical nukes are the first response. If it doesn't stop, strategic nukes follow.

Those, too, are compelling incentives to keep your shit on your own side of the border.
 
Edit: By the way, in a very late response to that “Moloch” character being brought up earlier…I’ve always found it amusing that the ”it’s da Joos” crowd seem to think the profoundly monotheistic Jews worship a Canaanite/Phoenician God. The Canaanites of course being the mortal enemy of the Hebrews those thousands of years ago.
It's similarly amusing how much genetic material the Canaanites and the ethnicity which in modern times is called jews have in common.
 
In addition, if anyone thinks that after murdering all Jews these people would all go "well yeah, now that THAT goal has been fulfilled we're all going to throw away the violent worldview that we grew up on, settle down and become peaceful and productive members of society" then they're delusional.

This.
To the people who argue "why should the USA care about the Middle-East, Israel is not our country" etc etc... let's suppose for the sake of argument that Hamas and the rest of them were to attain to their stated goal: they totally conquer the state of Israel, burn it all down, kill every last Israeli Jew who doesn't manage to escape to whatever place will take them (except for some of the fertile-age women they capture, who will be enslaved and forced to birth loads of little future jihadis).. Total Palestine Victory scenario....
Does any sane person think it would stop there? That the Palestinian Arabs would all say "Now it's our land, and will live on it in peace" ???

Nope. Like the proverbial shark that will die if it stops swimming, Islamic Funnymentalism of that sort has to keep making war, has to keep expanding (or at least expending young men in an attempt at expanding) or it will consume itself.
 
This.
To the people who argue "why should the USA care about the Middle-East, Israel is not our country" etc etc... let's suppose for the sake of argument that Hamas and the rest of them were to attain to their stated goal: they totally conquer the state of Israel, burn it all down, kill every last Israeli Jew who doesn't manage to escape to whatever place will take them (except for some of the fertile-age women they capture, who will be enslaved and forced to birth loads of little future jihadis).. Total Palestine Victory scenario....
Does any sane person think it would stop there? That the Palestinian Arabs would all say "Now it's our land, and will live on it in peace" ???

Nope. Like the proverbial shark that will die if it stops swimming, Islamic Funnymentalism of that sort has to keep making war, has to keep expanding (or at least expending young men in an attempt at expanding) or it will consume itself.
I'm quite confident in my country's ability to sink "migrant" ships, if it has the will.
If it doesn't have the will, it deserves "migrants"
 
Making some indefinitely flexible shifting border setup is a non-starter, as it's unprecedented system incompatible with the rather inflexible system of international land ownership recognition, and would definitely not be added for the sake of this plan.

The problem with expelling Gazans is the same as it always was. To where?
Reminder that Israel has already tried to pawn off Gazans on Egypt even together with the land under them, but they still didn't want that, and considering the history Palestinian refugees have with Arab countries, not a big surprise.

Conquering Lebanon and Syria, especially at the same time, for the sake of including them into future arrangements, removal of Iranian imperial project, population relocations and border redrawing is probably beyond the logistical capability of Israel, nevermind the hellish politics involved. Boots on the ground balls to the wall assistance from at least one major western power would be necessary.

Returning the place to Fatah after some adjustments is one of more likely scenarios, though i have my doubts about whether Fatah will be organizationally able to stop the locals from doing stupid shit.

Some sort of international peacekeeping force that would also crack down on the jihadism properly would be ideal, but for all the talk, no one really wants to touch this shit and deal with the outrage a proper "dejihadization campaign" would cause.
Which touches upon the central question of this - what to do with at least a million (conservatively) of Hamas supporters in Gaza, and how to make it at least semi-tolerable to the western partners of Israel? After all, as long as they remain so, they will not accept a permanent peace that doesn't smell like victory, no matter the military defeats, treaties, government orders, international support and so on.
This.
To the people who argue "why should the USA care about the Middle-East, Israel is not our country" etc etc... let's suppose for the sake of argument that Hamas and the rest of them were to attain to their stated goal: they totally conquer the state of Israel, burn it all down, kill every last Israeli Jew who doesn't manage to escape to whatever place will take them (except for some of the fertile-age women they capture, who will be enslaved and forced to birth loads of little future jihadis).. Total Palestine Victory scenario....
Does any sane person think it would stop there? That the Palestinian Arabs would all say "Now it's our land, and will live on it in peace" ???

Nope. Like the proverbial shark that will die if it stops swimming, Islamic Funnymentalism of that sort has to keep making war, has to keep expanding (or at least expending young men in an attempt at expanding) or it will consume itself.
I'm quite confident in my country's ability to sink "migrant" ships, if it has the will.
If it doesn't have the will, it deserves "migrants"
It's not just the migrant boats. These people are more than willing to set up a global center of jihad in any scrap of land they get to rule unmolested, we have seen that with ISIL and AQ before. Reminder that jihadists, like communists, recognize national borders or loyalties as nothing more than dumb unbeliever's obstacles their most righteous activities. Migrant boats or other ways, they would absolutely and unconditionally insist on making themselves a pain in the ass. Better crush their attempts before they get big and manage to get themselves some serious weapons rather than wait to do it afterwards.
 
I actually feel that my own proposal is rather limited in scope, and solves the local issue, but not the overall one regarding the islamic world. I could outline a more encompassing outline, but that would be further removed from the current political realities, and would also move a bit beyond the scope of this thread.
Your plan requires a ton more of initial setup though. That's the issue. Kicking and shoving people around is expensive, both militarily and politically. Southern lebanon is an absolute bear to fight through, for just one example.

I don't actually think your plan will be short. Moving all those people, when the territory hasn't already been conquered, and there's little political will to do this? Not doable in a short time frame.

Making some indefinitely flexible shifting border setup is a non-starter, as it's unprecedented system incompatible with the rather inflexible system of international land ownership recognition, and would definitely not be added for the sake of this plan.
It's called conquering during war, after the split. Prior to the split? It's not an international issue.
 
It's called conquering during war, after the split. Prior to the split? It's not an international issue.
Pulling such rearrangements through international politics is hard enough to do once, expecting it to be done every time the simmering conflict flares up over next decades is simply unrealistic.
 

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