How Simon Tolkien Helped Ruin Rings of Power

ParadiseLost said:
I mean, the reality is, would you rather a world exist where Amazon's version is the only version, or a world where Amazon's version coexists with an RWBY-animation level version that's 100% authentic to Tolkien's vision?
Click to expand...
I simply don't believe the latter outcome is possible let alone a likely occurrence. In all likelihood your two options are Amazon's or Amazon's. Or more accurately Amazon's, Apple, Disney ect. The corporations who have the money and distributions to get their products to the masses. Just as an example compare how much of the general populace's perceptions of the stories of the "Little Mermaid", "Aladdin" or "Beauty and the Beast" are shaped by Disney rather than the fables themselves. Why would your work buck the trend?

And on the other end of the spectrum you'd also be competing for attention against just the low effort, quick cash grab on the available IP.

So what is the plan exactly? Is this supposed to funded off of the likes of Kickstarter? Distributed through Youtube? Shown in theaters? Put up on Netflix?
 
KilroywasNOTHere said:
What's yours? My goal would be to open the floodgates of creativity low effort or not. Even if only some flock to the non-corporate alternatives that's more than what's happening now which is either "Eat the corporate helpings" or "Give up on the fandom entirely."
Click to expand...
Well if you want to open the floodgates of creativity there's nothing stopping you from just creating a new IP. To tell stories, craft morality tales.

As for my plan, I thought I was very open on the subject. I put my trust in the impersonal force of the free market. Either to course correct the Simon Tolkien's of the world or, failing that, to bury it and rise up new franchises and creators who will serve the untapped market.
 
Crom's Black Blade said:
Well if you want to open the floodgates of creativity there's nothing stopping you from just creating a new IP. To tell stories, craft morality tales.

As for my plan, I thought I was very open on the subject. I put my trust in the impersonal force of the free market. Either to course correct the Simon Tolkien's of the world or, failing that, to bury it and rise up new franchises and creators who will serve the untapped market.
Click to expand...

so make a franchise, milk it, and then cash out. rinse wash repeat?

IF that's the case my response to that is legacy is more important than money.
 
KilroywasNOTHere said:
so make a franchise, milk it, and then cash out. rinse wash repeat?

IF that's the case my response to that is legacy is more important than money.
Click to expand...
No, it would be more reward good franchises with your money, punish bad franchises. That if enough people do that for long enough will produce change. Either we get good Indy, Star Wars and LOTR films or we get new properties who fill the market void.

Like I said I'd prefer to set up the conditions for the wrong people to do the right thing then trying to position the right people to do the right thing.
 
Crom's Black Blade said:
Well if you want to open the floodgates of creativity there's nothing stopping you from just creating a new IP. To tell stories, craft morality tales.

As for my plan, I thought I was very open on the subject. I put my trust in the impersonal force of the free market. Either to course correct the Simon Tolkien's of the world or, failing that, to bury it and rise up new franchises and creators who will serve the untapped market.
Click to expand...
Except the free market is far from infallible, and commoditizing culture in that way (treating it like it's disposable), is part of what got us into this mess in the first place; where it seems like almost nobody in the West shares the same culture anymore.
 
Terthna said:
Except the free market is far from infallible, and commoditizing culture in that way (treating it like it's disposable), is part of what got us into this mess in the first place; where it seems like almost nobody in the West shares the same culture anymore.
Click to expand...

or even a culture of their own.
 
Terthna said:
Except the free market is far from infallible, and commoditizing culture in that way (treating it like it's disposable), is part of what got us into this mess in the first place; where it seems like almost nobody in the West shares the same culture anymore.
Click to expand...
Oh I would agree with you the free market is far from infallible. I certainly don't want to imply this will only lead to good outcomes.

I would even agree with you on culture that part of the problem is that media is one of the primary vectors to impart morals and lessons. It is why fables and legends have been such a huge part of man's history. And coupled with the long march through our institutions we've effectively been buying the rope that will hang the next generation into pinko-commie slavery.

So I certainly understand the importance of movies rather the disagreement is over the best means to wield control. To me having private ownership and therefore a stake and financials incentive over the "brand" gives us the most power.

I don't see how a communal ownership of, say, LOTR will stop Hollywood from pumping out it's alternative culture or otherwise arrest the problem.
 
Crom's Black Blade said:
Oh I would agree with you the free market is far from infallible. I certainly don't want to imply this will only lead to good outcomes.

I would even agree with you on culture that part of the problem is that media is one of the primary vectors to impart morals and lessons. It is why fables and legends have been such a huge part of man's history. And coupled with the long march through our institutions we've effectively been buying the rope that will hang the next generation into pinko-commie slavery.

So I certainly understand the importance of movies rather the disagreement is over the best means to wield control. To me having private ownership and therefore a stake and financials incentive over the "brand" gives us the most power.

I don't see how a communal ownership of, say, LOTR will stop Hollywood from pumping out it's alternative culture or otherwise arrest the problem.
Click to expand...
Except what you're essentially arguing is that we shouldn't change anything, even though our current system has failed. The largest corporations have built for themselves a perpetual monopoly over almost every myth and legend our culture has produced in the last hundred years, and are doing everything they can to try and extend their reach even further backwards into our history to control that which belongs to the public domain.

Take Sherlock Holmes for example; how many different versions of his story have been made coming from different sources over the years? Besides the near countless attempts to adapt the source material to different mediums, you've got Sherlock Holmes but set in the modern day, Sherlock Holmes but set in the 22nd Century, and Sherlock Holmes but he's an anthropomorphic dog, just to name a few. Except not too long ago, there was an attempt to expand the perpetual copyright that holds a monopoly over Doyle's later works involving the character, to encompass all of them; likely preventing anything like those wildly different takes on Sherlock from ever being made again.

It's not about stopping Hollywood from producing their schlock; it's about giving the rest of us the power to actually compete in the free market, and produce something of value using the stories that have helped define who we are.
 
Terthna said:
Except what you're essentially arguing is that we shouldn't change anything, even though our current system has failed.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's "essentially", I am arguing against changing the system due to believing it will make things worse. Nor do I think the system has failed but rather we have.

Terthna said:
It's not about stopping Hollywood from producing their schlock; it's about giving the rest of us the power to actually compete in the free market, and produce something of value using the stories that have helped define who we are.
Click to expand...
Well then I must ask how are you going to make a comic book, cartoon or film and compete it against Hollywood? And if you can do that why can't you do it for an original IP instead bemoaning copyright law?

Just to illustrate my point, Star Wars dates back to the disco era and was a original IP created by Lucas because he couldn't do a Flash Gordon film. Why not make your own space opera relevant to our current age just like Lucas did back then?

Terthna said:
Take Sherlock Holmes for example; how many different versions of his story have been made coming from different sources over the years? Besides the near countless attempts to adapt the source material to different mediums, you've got Sherlock Holmes but set in the modern day, Sherlock Holmes but set in the 22nd Century, and Sherlock Holmes but he's an anthropomorphic dog, just to name a few. Except not too long ago, there was an attempt to expand the perpetual copyright that holds a monopoly over Doyle's later works involving the character, to encompass all of them; likely preventing anything like those wildly different takes on Sherlock from ever being made again.
Click to expand...
Copyright hardly prevents divergent or reimagined works. It would merely mean they would have to obtained officials license to use someone else private property.

And yeah, if you're making money off of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's skullsweat then you should pay him or his descendants for the privilege so I don't see the core concept as that horrific. Obviously I'd prefer if Doyle could have set up terms if he wanted to pass his works down to his children, or allow them into Public Domain, and any guidelines they had to observe or otherwise forsake the inheritance.
 
You know, given that so many these days (including even his own descendants it seems) are bent on “fixing” Tolkien’s “errors”, I find it interesting how none of them seem interested in improving on what Tolkien himself felt he could have expanded on: the Orcs.

I believe he’s on record saying he wished he’d given some time to show that, despite how twisted they are, they still have souls and the spark of the divine about them. That in a vacuum, without Morgoth or Sauron, they wouldn’t quite be evil.
 
Crom's Black Blade said:
I don't think it's "essentially", I am arguing against changing the system due to believing it will make things worse. Nor do I think the system has failed but rather we have.
Click to expand...
In what way do you think we've failed?
Crom's Black Blade said:
Well then I must ask how are you going to make a comic book, cartoon or film and compete it against Hollywood? And if you can do that why can't you do it for an original IP instead bemoaning copyright law?

Just to illustrate my point, Star Wars dates back to the disco era and was a original IP created by Lucas because he couldn't do a Flash Gordon film. Why not make your own space opera relevant to our current age just like Lucas did back then?
Click to expand...
Well, the first hurdle (beyond, you know, being able to make something comparable to Star Wars in quality) is that the film industry is very different from how it was in the late seventies. It's much more insular, and aggressive towards any "outsider" trying to make a movie. So to start with, unless you've got connections in Hollywood (which would necessitate holding regressive leftist ideological views) your work is going to be barred from being shown in most theaters, no matter how good it is. Sadly, there are similar issues in the animation and comic book industry, so the only path forward is to go indie and give up on trying to reach the mass market; which, admittedly, more and more people are doing. Unfortunately, many then run into the second hurdle; which is the fact that the mainstream industries tend to do everything in their power to try and destroy anyone in the indie scene who gets too successful, particularly those that doesn't share their ideology, and they have many ways of doing so. Stuff like attacking your character in the media, squeezing you out of whatever venues you distribute your work through, and getting the government involved.

Perpetual copyright is far from the only issue with our current system.
Crom's Black Blade said:
Copyright hardly prevents divergent or reimagined works. It would merely mean they would have to obtained officials license to use someone else private property.

And yeah, if you're making money off of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's skullsweat then you should pay him or his descendants for the privilege so I don't see the core concept as that horrific. Obviously I'd prefer if Doyle could have set up terms if he wanted to pass his works down to his children, or allow them into Public Domain, and any guidelines they had to observe or otherwise forsake the inheritance.
Click to expand...
So you believe that copyright shouldn't have an expiration date then?
 
@Aldarion
Asia says hi and wonders why you care about one city on the US west coast so much.

Movies and tv series big enough to challenge Hollywoke might not be the case yet, but we have lots of alternatives.

Korea and Japan still make non woke shit and we have a thriving non-maonstream comics market due to things like Comicsgate.org: The Gateway to Independent Comics

And while making a western movie is massively expensive and those companies possess a huge moat, games, comics and literature are not the case.

My two cents, focus on what can be done easier than on overpriced crap like Hollywood blockbusters.

As to copyright, it should absolutely have an expiration date, like ANY PATENT.
 
Moving farther and to our own neck of the woods, I don't know id you have noticed but our favorite South-Eestern komsus do produce tons of very popular police procedurals and soap operas and some big budget historic stuff that are liked all over the middle eastand lots of Eastern Yurup.

And those things are a lot more conservative in tone and give people what they want, e.g. bot chicks with big gazongas and manly heroic men. :ROFLMAO:
 
Aldarion said:
I care because they touched TOLKIEN.

Google my nickname...
Click to expand...
Well, the outcome would have not been different if his stuff was public domain.

Then any idiot would have been able to write anything in his universe, but the sheer amount of stuff would cancel itself out.

As a fan of HPL and Dune I can attest, we have literally had C'thulhu porn published.

We have lots of we wuz kangz anti-HPL fanfics published.

We have had a decent amount of politically correct crap, period drama, C'thulhu vs. Sherlock Holmes and the like.
Dune, well, got 3 words for you, Kevin J. Anderson.
And yes, I am a proud Talifan.

The crap sinks and some of the better things drift to the top.

Do like I do and ignore all sequels and adaptations.

Also, IMHO it is better to have a thousand irrelevant fanfics rhan 1 piece of crap like KJA's "official" sequels.
 
General Copyright Discussion is not on topic
  • Staff
    • General Copyright discussion, it's morality, legality, etc, is not on topic for this thread. To the extent it is, it's only the legality of the copyright for Tolkien's work, and what should have been done with that specific copyright.

    Please keep on topic about how crap the new adaptions are, and whether Simon bears 100% of the blame or 110% of the blame.
     
  • Staff
    • Abhorsen said:
    General Copyright discussion, it's morality, legality, etc, is not on topic for this thread. To the extent it is, it's only the legality of the copyright for Tolkien's work, and what should have been done with that specific copyright.

    Please keep on topic about how crap the new adaptions are, and whether Simon bears 100% of the blame or 110% of the blame.
    Click to expand...
    There is some merit to the discussion, so maybe you can move the posts to a new thread where we can continue practicing our tism?
     
    Agent23 said:
    There is some merit to the discussion, so maybe you can move the posts to a new thread where we can continue practicing our tism?
    Click to expand...
    Is there a thread you'd like to see this moved to? The obvious one is in politics and current affairs, but it seems like a question about philosophy instead, as you guys are asking "what's moral".
     
    Abhorsen said:
    Is there a thread you'd like to see this moved to? The obvious one is in politics and current affairs, but it seems like a question about philosophy instead, as you guys are asking "what's moral".
    Click to expand...
    Combo of what is moral and what is prudent and legal.
    We will also have to discuss legal tradition I suppose.
    So how about a thread about IP, Copyright and patent law in the University of the Sietch subforum?
     
    You must log in or register to reply here.

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
    Back
    Top