How Simon Tolkien Helped Ruin Rings of Power

[Aldarion]

Simon Tolkien, son of Christopher Tolkien, is probably one of the worst things that has happened to the Tolkien family and JRRT's legacy. Just listen what he says in a segment of the above video.

More details below:

 

[Husky_Khan]

Good Creators Make Good Fiction

Good Fiction Make Bad Creators.

You get the idea...

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

see this is why I'm such an advocate for the Public domain, Yes there is the chance that the public MIGHT dilute the brand, but Descendants are far more likely to sellout to big corporations and guarantee the brand becomes damaged. If it can happen to both Tolkien and Disney then to assume it won't happen to you is foolishness and vanity.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

see this is why I'm such an advocate for the Public domain, Yes there is the chance that the public MIGHT dilute the brand, but Descendants are far more likely to sellout to big corporations and guarantee the brand becomes damaged. If it can happen to both Tolkien and Disney then to assume it won't happen to you is foolishness and vanity.

I suppose my fear would be, assuming Tolkien's work was in public domain, then we wouldn't just see Amazon's Ring of Power but Netflix spinoff of Frodo and Sam's adventures where they're confirmed to homosexual lovers, Disney putting out a race and genderswap Hobbit movie ect milking the franchise for whatever name recognition it has then discarding it as a lifeless husk.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I suppose my fear would be, assuming Tolkien's work was in public domain, then we wouldn't just see Amazon's Ring of Power but Netflix spinoff of Frodo and Sam's adventures where they're confirmed to homosexual lovers, Disney putting out a race and genderswap Hobbit movie ect milking the franchise for whatever name recognition it has then discarding it as a lifeless husk.

didn't stop amazon now did it? there is always risk when something becomes popular in fact the only way to guarantee your stories never become tainted is to never show them to the public. (and to be fair many potential authors forsake that opportunity for that very reason and simply share their stories with close family and friends)

the question is would you rather all the power be centralized in the hands of a corporation whom only have to answer to their political masters, fans and artistic integrity be darned, or decentralized that while not as lucrative can't cause as much artistic damage and political damage as there is no definitive canon that can be controlled.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

didn't stop amazon now did it? there is always risk when something becomes popular in fact the only way to guarantee your stories never become tainted is to never show them to the public. (and to be fair many potential authors forsake that opportunity for that very reason and simply share their stories with close family and friends)

the question is would you rather all the power be centralized in the hands of a corporation whom only have to answer to their political masters, fans and artistic integrity be darned, or decentralized that while not as lucrative can't cause as much artistic damage and political damage as there is no definitive canon that can be controlled.

A potential for a bad outcome does not, I feel, necessarily invalidate the system. As you say there is always risks. What we are really talking about is a system that reduces that risk as much as possible. In this particular case the idea of whether ownership incentives one to shepherd and take care of a work rather than communal ownership.

For myself I lean towards the former. That if someone owns something and is making money off of it than they have the most incentive to try and maintain that profitability. Now we live in an imperfect world and no system is foolproof nor is every owner going to share the exact same reasoning over how to maintain that profitability. But, I would stress, as long as Simon maintains ownership of Tolkien's work and his actions lead to an impairment of its marketability than there is at least the chance he may course correct to protect his meal ticket.

Further the alternative, I fear, will not decentralize power at least not to the extent that you wish. After all despite being in public domain when I say the "Little Mermaid" do you think first of a Danish myth turning to sea foam or a pretty Redhead with a Jamaican crab? By virtue of having a bigger soapbox corporations like Disney or Amazon will always have an outside influence over "definitive canon" in the public consciousness if only because that's the version they'll be bombarded with while they'll have to go searching for yours.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

A bad outcome does not, I feel, invalidate the system. As you say there is always risks. What we are really talking about is a system that reduces that risk as much as possible. In this particular case the idea of whether ownership incentives one to shepherd and take care of a work rather than communal ownership.

Except that NEVER happens. The descendants have OVERWEALMINGLY sold out time after time after time after time. Are we going to fall into the same "That wasn't real (insert whatever system that's being defended) here?

But, I would stress, as long as Simon maintains ownership of Tolkien's work and his actions lead to an impairment of its marketability than there is at least the chance he may course correct to protect his meal ticket.

oh please. People like him don't course correct they double down, and by the time they MIGHT course correct the work dies. Disney, Star Wars, Marvel, DC the list goes on and on. The Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. The system as it currently exists has failed and the exceptions IMO do not outweigh the the rules in this case.

Further the alternative, I fear, will not decentralize power at least not to the extent that you wish. After all despite being in public domain when I say the "Little Mermaid" do you think first of a Danish myth turning to sea foam or a pretty Redhead with a Jamaican crab? By virtue of having a bigger soapbox corporations like Disney or Amazon will always have an outside influence over "definitive canon" in the public consciousness if only because that's the version they'll be bombarded with while they'll have to go searching for yours.

Perhaps but it's a least worth a shot. As things are now the government controls all aspects of American culture if not directly then at least by proxies like Disney, Like Marvel ect ect. but honestly I think the biggest crux of our disagreement comes from above.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Except that NEVER happens. The descendants have OVERWEALMINGLY sold out time after time after time after time. Are we going to fall into the same "That wasn't real (insert whatever system that's being defended) here?

I have certainly not made any arguments to the effect that Simon Tolkien's actions are somehow not "real ownership" or that "ownership" by itself guarantees a good outcome.

I would challenge your argument that it "NEVER happens" however. Did Christopher Tolkien sell out? Or following Walt's death did the Disney corporation sell out and deliberately devalue the original classics?

Personally I would argue that we are in a, culturally speaking, short-term bubble of politics over profits that, like all socialism, will eventually run out of other people's money and end. That it is not ownership that is causing the problem.

oh please. People like him don't course correct they double down, and by the time they MIGHT course correct the work dies. Disney, Star Wars, Marvel, DC the list goes on and on. The Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. The system as it currently exists has failed and the exceptions IMO do not outweigh the the rules in this case.

Well you either course correct or the work, as you say, is so devalued its worthless so one way or another it will stop being a problem. Which may be a point of disagreement between us. To me Disney running Star Wars into the ground is part of how the system is supposed to operate via the school of hard knocks and lessons learned if nothing else.

That Disney going broke owning billion dollar IPs that aren't worth spit can ultimately serve as a warning to others on how to handle their IPs.

Perhaps but it's a least worth a shot. As things are now the government controls all aspects of American culture if not directly then at least by proxies like Disney, Like Marvel ect ect. but honestly I think the biggest crux of our disagreement comes from above.

To me it just doesn't prevent the fundamental issue you are upset with and I think it would exacerbate it.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I would challenge your argument that it "NEVER happens" however. Did Christopher Tolkien sell out? Or following Walt's death did the Disney corporation sell out and deliberately devalue the original classics?

to the first question, no but his son did. to the 2nd question. Yes, yes, they did I fully believe that. Heck you had people within looking to gun him down before his body was even cold. I'm sure there were many communist jumping up and down when they heard the man's death rattle.

Personally I would argue that we are in a, culturally speaking, short-term bubble of politics over profits that, like all socialism, will eventually run out of other people's money and end.

Until another guy comes along and wraps in in different paper and calls it something new. Heck Socialism itself is just a distorted version of feudalism designed to fit into a post-industrial age.

Which may be a point of disagreement between us. To me Disney running Star Wars into the ground is part of how the system is supposed to operate via the school of hard knocks and lessons learned if nothing else.

You're assuming people learn their lessons. Life is quickly teaching me and they don't. and if culture is meant to be that dispensable then what is the point? How is it that the pagan cultures and myths of old have lasted hundreds and in some cases THOUSANDS of years, and yet nowadays we're lucky if stories and ideals last a few decades?

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

o the first question, no but his son did. to the 2nd question. Yes, yes, they did I fully believe that. Heck you had people within looking to gun him down before his body was even cold. I'm sure there were many communist jumping up and down when they heard the man's death rattle.

If I understood your argument, you were suggesting that no descendants would ever shepherd the work. That ownership, either due to financial incentive or even just a sense responsibility, could not prompt such a reaction and that only by disavowing private ownership and giving the work to the "people" could caretakers be found. I think Tolkien's son shows we are dealing with more nuanced valuables.

As for Disney, what precisely are you referring to? What did they do to devalue Disney's brand or otherwise pursue a "screw profits we have an agenda" type plan.

Until another guy comes along and wraps in in different paper and calls it something new. Heck Socialism itself is just a distorted version of feudalism designed to fit into a post-industrial age.

Eventually. As Doctor Manhattan once said, never ever ends. But once it collapses there be an interim period as those burned either are consumed by it or learn their lesson only for their descendants, spared such lessons, to fall prey to the same scam. But yes, I do believe people can change in pursuit of their own self interest and would postulate that most of Hollywood/Technology types aren't true believers but rather advocate it to score points/buy the modern day equivalent of indulgence or simply belong in a ecosystem were this is the norm. As such I do believe that once the money runs out they'll pivot to new revenue streams just like I believe a politician's only fealty are to whatever platitudes that will endow him with power and wealth.

and if culture is meant to be that dispensable then what is the point?

Well I would say there's a difference between IP's and culture. Culture are transgenerational values that shape and mold us into who we are while IP's were born again for each generation to give those values a place to play out. That isn't to say no stories were eternal or cross-generational but I feel that's likely the exceptions rather than the norm.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

If I understood your argument, you were suggesting that no descendants would ever shepherd the work. That ownership, either due to financial incentive or even just a sense responsibility, could not prompt such a reaction and that only by disavowing private ownership and giving the work to the "people" could caretakers be found. I think Tolkien's son shows we are dealing with more nuanced valuables.

I'm saying bloodlines can't be trusted to keep something going on forever. When somthing like an IP is kept in the hands of one person or one family, then all it takes is one idiot son or daughter to ruin everything forever. Sure Christopher did but then what did Simon do? (Hint: Look at the title of the Thread.)

As for Disney, what precisely are you referring to? What did they do to devalue Disney's brand or otherwise pursue a "screw profits we have an agenda" type plan.

Calling Walt an outright nazi sympathizer (If not a straight-up nazi) Abigail Disney disowning him. This is where I put my tinfoil hat on and say what we are seeing now is the end result of a conspiracy at least 100 years in the making if not longer (depending on what you believe) The profit was only a means to an end to continue the long march. which leads into...

Eventually. As Doctor Manhattan once said, never ever ends. But once it collapses there be an interim period as those burned either are consumed by it or learn their lesson only for their descendants, spared such lessons, to fall prey to the same scam. But yes, I do believe people can change in pursuit of their own self interest and would postulate that most of Hollywood/Technology types aren't true believers but rather advocate it to score points/buy the modern day equivalent of indulgence or simply belong in a ecosystem were this is the norm. As such I do believe that once the money runs out they'll pivot to new revenue streams just like I believe a politician's only fealty are to whatever platitudes that will endow him with power and wealth.

I do think we are dealing with idiots, but I think it's of the arrogant kind. They think the money is an investment, a path to greater power and control to win the hearts and the minds of the people once they have everything (IE their version of the Great Reset) money won't matter. Now we can argue that they will fail as @Cherico has but my question is how much damage will they do in the meantime?

Well I would say there's a difference between IP's and culture. Culture are transgenerational values that shape and mold us into who we are while IP's were born again for each generation to give those values a place to play out. That isn't to say no stories were eternal or cross-generational but I feel that's likely the exceptions rather than the norm.

If a tree falls but nothing is left to witness it, does it make a sound...does it even exist? The survival of these stories are about as close to immortality as you can get in this world. it'll be the last witness of our existence and our values long after our bloodlines die out. Just like with your soul that's just something money can't buy. The fact that people are willing to sell them to be milked to oblivion (oblivion being the keyword here) for what amounts to a bowl of soup is.... very troubling in my opinion.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

I'm saying bloodlines can't be trusted to keep something going on forever. When somthing like an IP is kept in the hands of one person or one family, then all it takes is one idiot son or daughter to ruin everything forever. Sure Christopher did but then what did Simon do? (Hint: Look at the title of the Thread.)

Forever? No, but that's a pretty high bar. Nor is what Simon did in doubt, merely the conclusions you draw from it.

Incontrast your plan rather than preserving anything would most likely lead to an IP's dissolution by being diluted by countless iterations that by sturgeon's law most are going to be bad and the very groups you are opposed to are going to have the loudest megaphones.

Calling Walt an outright nazi sympathizer (If not a straight-up nazi) Abigail Disney disowning him. This is where I put my tinfoil hat on and say what we are seeing now is the end result of a conspiracy at least 100 years in the making if not longer (depending on what you believe) The profit was only a means to an end to continue the long march. which leads into...

I do think we are dealing with idiots, but I think it's of the arrogant kind. They think the money is an investment, a path to greater power and control to win the hearts and the minds of the people once they have everything (IE their version of the Great Reset) money won't matter. Now we can argue that they will fail as @Cherico has but my question is how much damage will they do in the meantime?

You mention them attacking/distancing themselves from Walt but that isn't quite the same thing as trying to devalue the IP. Indeed due to changing culture/culture war issues distancing yourself from Walt could be perceived as a self-interested move. Which seems to be a difference in view point between us. I tend towards setting up the conditions so that the wrong people will make the right choices ala Milton Friedman. You favor the view that these are all political zealots who burn everything in attempt to advance their goal.

If a tree falls but nothing is left to witness it, does it make a sound...does it even exist? The survival of these stories are about as close to immortality as you can get in this world. it'll be the last witness of our existence and our values long after our bloodlines die out. Just like with your soul that's just something money can't buy. The fact that people are willing to sell them to be milked to oblivion (oblivion being the keyword here) for what amounts to a bowl of soup is.... very troubling in my opinion.

Well that's were we disagree. I don't think Star Wars dying means the values its represents must die with it. Indeed I'd say in a proper and prosperous culture that's to be expected. Each generation creating its own heroes, its own parables. What matters is the values, not rather its Hercules or Luke who is presenting them.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

your plan rather than preserving anything would most likely lead to an IP's dissolution by being diluted by countless iterations that by sturgeon's law most are going to be bad and the very groups you are opposed to are going to have the loudest megaphones.

perhaps, but in my view with sturgeon law there is only a 90% chance that the people I oppose will have the loudest microphones and that the myths will die With the system we have now so far it

I tend towards setting up the conditions so that the wrong people will make the right choices ala Milton Friedman. You favor the view that these are all political zealots who burn everything in attempt to advance their goal.

Not just political, but religious and philosophical, specifically the religion of globalism. Socialism/Communism IMO is just modified fudalism in service of globalism. Admitidly this also leads to

What matters is the values, not rather its Hercules or Luke who is presenting them.

To that, I say you're wrong. Both matter who says it as well as what is said. Luke was American Hercules was Greek, even if they did share the same values (They don't but that's beside the point,) that does not make them of the same people. My people are not defined by any particular race like say the English or the French, but we are defined by our flag, our borders and our people. Just because you write something similar to the Constitution does not mean you can just identify as an American. Star Wars, Spider-Man, and Batman are OUR stories and no one else just like Lord of the Rings belongs to the British people and no one else.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

To that, I say you're wrong. Both matter who says it as well as what is said. Luke was American Hercules was Greek, even if they did share the same values (They don't but that's beside the point,) that does not make them of the same people. My people are not defined by any particular race like say the English or the French, but we are defined by our flag, our borders and our people. Just because you write something similar to the Constitution does not mean you can just identify as an American. Star Wars, Spider-Man, and Batman are OUR stories and no one else just like Lord of the Rings belongs to the British people and no one else.

Well then, we disagree.

perhaps, but in my view with sturgeon law there is only a 90% chance that the people I oppose will have the loudest microphones and that the myths will die With the system we have now so far it

No, there's closer to a 99% to 100% they'll have the loudest microphones. Amazon, Disney, Apple. They all have resources far beyond what a non-corporation can acquire. Further since we know there is a huge stack of money waiting for anyone who will toe the party line that ensures the most easily funded, and thus likely most visible, products will be ones catering to the woke crowd.

Not just political, but religious and philosophical, specifically the religion of globalism. Socialism/Communism IMO is just modified fudalism in service of globalism.

Sure, whether consciously or not it apts both to recreate that safe, close-knit feeling of the village with a ruling "noble class", in this case governments czars, to protect and care for you.

And I would agree that all but the most dyed in the wool believers know this and see that as a desirable outcome. They want that power to live as a sultan lording over decrees to the commoners. We can just look back to our "elites" responses to Covid to see their inner fascists at play.

Where we disagree is I don't think most of them would actually want to go broke and destitute merely in hopes of achieving that goal for someone else.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Well then, we disagree.

wel then there is no point in arguing further as that statement is the crux of my philosophy.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

wel then there is no point in arguing further as that statement is the crux of my philosophy.

That's fair.

 

[ParadiseLost]

I suppose my fear would be, assuming Tolkien's work was in public domain, then we wouldn't just see Amazon's Ring of Power but Netflix spinoff of Frodo and Sam's adventures where they're confirmed to homosexual lovers, Disney putting out a race and genderswap Hobbit movie ect milking the franchise for whatever name recognition it has then discarding it as a lifeless husk.

I actually rather doubt that.

If its public domain any transformative works have to stand on their own merits or fail against other transformative works.

If the IP is exclusive, the IP owner doesn't need to create a good piece of fiction because theirs no competition to produce quality works for that IP.

I mean, sure, there'd still be weird smut, but teenage girls and lonely, socially awkward middle aged women are gonna write weird smut no matter IP laws. No ones gonna stop them from MPREG Sam x Saruman lemon angst fanfic.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I actually rather doubt that.

If its public domain any transformative works have to stand on their own merits or fail against other transformative works.

If the IP is exclusive, the IP owner doesn't need to create a good piece of fiction because theirs no competition to produce quality works for that IP.

I mean, sure, there'd still be weird smut, but teenage girls and lonely, socially awkward middle aged women are gonna write weird smut no matter IP laws. No ones gonna stop them from MPREG Sam x Saruman lemon angst fanfic.

thank you, you've just explained my stance much better than I ever could have.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

I actually rather doubt that.

If its public domain any transformative works have to stand on their own merits or fail against other transformative works.

If the IP is exclusive, the IP owner doesn't need to create a good piece of fiction because theirs no competition to produce quality works for that IP.

I mean, sure, there'd still be weird smut, but teenage girls and lonely, socially awkward middle aged women are gonna write weird smut no matter IP laws. No ones gonna stop them from MPREG Sam x Saruman lemon angst fanfic.

Well that's where I disagree with you or @KilroywasNOTHere . Your argument rests on the idea that IP's are restrictive and produce lower quality work because there is no competition. That without IP then if Amazon's LOTR is shit then everyone will flock to someone else's.

I find that interpretation of events unlikely due to the expense of producing a professional film/series, distributing it, advertising it. Basically whether it's in public domain or not the Amazon versions is going to be the definitive because they have the money and platform.

This becomes an even more important advantage when there's a glut of crap, quickly shoveled out bargain basement imitations flooding the market both competing for eyeballs and giving the IP a bad smell as low-tier effort.

 

[ParadiseLost]

Well that's where I disagree with you or @KilroywasNOTHere . Your argument rests on the idea that IP's are restrictive and produce lower quality work because there is no competition. That without IP then if Amazon's LOTR is shit then everyone will flock to someone else's.

I find that interpretation of events unlikely due to the expense of producing a professional film/series, distributing it, advertising it. Basically whether it's in public domain or not the Amazon versions is going to be the definitive because they have the money and platform.

This becomes an even more important advantage when there's a glut of crap, quickly shoveled out bargain basement imitations flooding the market both competing for eyeballs and giving the IP a bad smell as low-tier effort.

I mean, the reality is, would you rather a world exist where Amazon's version is the only version, or a world where Amazon's version coexists with an RWBY-animation level version that's 100% authentic to Tolkien's vision?