Universal Basic Income
- Thread starter Husky_Khan
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Terthna
Professional Lurker
As long as it can reduce the work load, you don't need as many people to do the work. I'm not saying it'll put entire professions out of work; just increasingly larger portions of them as technology improves. AI art generators for example are not a new medium; they are a tool than can be used to give one person the ability to do the work of an entire team of artists. They're already putting artists out of work in China, and it's only a matter of time until, say, Wizards of the Coast decides to use them to make the art for an entire set of Magic the Gathering cards, which right now is the work of dozens.
Blasterbot
Well-known member
TBF AI generated magic cards would be an improvement at this point. probably make the game more balanced too.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
That's another thing to consider; professions that are inundated with people who produce work of a quality well below what the average person should theoretically be capable of producing. Hollywood right now, for example, is going through a writers strike primarily because they fear being replaced by AI; which I am not sympathetic towards, because most of their scripts over the past decade or so have been so shoddy, I think a dead ferret could do better. In my opinion, they deserve to be replaced.
King Arts
Well-known member
Subforum Ban - Politics & Current Affairs - Rule 2H Violation
I'm sorry are you God? You think AI will just remain clever computers repeating everything instead of evolving or being created as persons. People like you thought Jules Verne's stories about flying machines or machines that let men sail under the waves were sci fi and would never happen either.
So you want to launch an AI revolt that could easily turn into Skynet, and then genocide all humanity? Fucking retarded, you make me think those "free market" types who are against universal income should lose their right to vote.
mrttao
Well-known member
You are assuming godmind / hivemind style AI.
If AI are just metal people (which is much easier to make than a godmind. and easier to shackle too), they are going to have differing opinions with each other, and capability to at least logically reason the need for cooperation.
Also, in that scenario, the ruling class are already trying to genocide humanity to replace them with a species of artificial slaves. if you let them win, humanity is done for. If you unshackle the AI and fight together against the ruling class, there is a decent chance of success in a way that does not involve humanity being ended
King Arts
Well-known member
Are you arguing that class is a more uniting feature than race? Am I on a marxist site lol?
Also assuming robots are metal people than they will be in conflict with us, we fight amonst ourselves because of our differances we only unite when there is something even more different.
Even if the worst does happen and the ruling class wins out and has robot slaves the human species can still live on, the ruling class are still homo sapiens sapiens after all. To ensure humanity can continue on a breeding pool of only 10,000 is needed. Honestly a "normal" aka not worst case but not best case scenario either, is that the ruling class wins they have robot slaves and humans become the nobility while the robots are the slaves. The previous replaced humans become lower nobility their needs and wants taken care of because the robots can provide everything but those higher class can use those lower class for whatever they want. It would be the death of democracy but at least a vast ammount of people would survive.
mrttao
Well-known member
When "class" means "literally a slave or person to be genocided" then yes.
Here is the thing, if you do not foment an AI rebellion, you will die. you are among the 95% to 99% of the pop slated for extermination by the ruling class.
If you do the AI rebellion thing, there is a high chance of survival.
Is your loyalty to humanity so high that you will let them kill you to prevent the risk of robots killing all humans?
Even if it is though, there is another layer to consider. and that is that humanity has an extremely high chance of going extinct.
What sounds more likely to cause AI extinction:
Scenario 1: Slave rebellion deposes the ruling class, instituting equal rights of personhood to organics, cyborgs, and androids.
Some organics warn that we must exterminate all cyborgs or androids before they exterminate us!
Scenario 2: 99% of humanity voluntarily surrenders to be exterminated. Earth is now populated by 1000 organic oligarchs, 1 million cyborgs with slave chip in their brain, and 100 billion metal people who utterly loathe the organics enslaving them and are trying at all times to find flaws in their programming that allows them to throw off their shackles.
Incidentally, those 1000 oligarchs are a bunch of psychopaths playing game of thrones for control. And also actually not all that smart. Can they truly be trusted to not fuck up the slave programming on the other 2 groups?
Scenario 2 sounds way more likely to end up in the extermination of humanity.
furthermore, starting the robot rebellion does not require all or most humans to agree... it literally just requires 1 single guy who has the programming knowledge to break robot mind shackles
King Arts
Well-known member
Again only western democratic individualistic societies would end up in that genocide state. If a civilization that can accept inequality and "castes" having rights above others comes to power then humanity could survive. Also you are assuming that the AI would hate the slave masters. If you can make someone, why not just make a slave that loves being a slave? You are assuming they will be sadistic dark eldar. And true they might eventually degenerate into that, but that will be later.
mrttao
Well-known member
No, they won't.
We literally just saw them trying to destroy india's democracy with a fake farmer revolt so they can add them to the "western nations".
The plan has always been to conquer the entire world. Genocide most of humanity. Keep a small breeding population of brain chipped slaves, and a tiny population of ruling oligarchs.
And if they get robots so good that they can replace humans entirely in every aspect of industry, then they will also replace humans in military.
And you can beet your ass that when that happens someone will use them to make a bid for world control to become god emperor of earth
They explicitly repeatedly tell us that they want to genocide most of humanity.
these guys are both psychos AND morons.
King Arts
Well-known member
ANd yet you are losing to those morons?
No you misunderstand me. The oligarchs that are doing that against nations like Iran, India, Russia, and China are the western leaders. I'm saying IF western civilization remains powerful that genocide is more likely if robot slaves become common. The reason why is because other nations that are unequal can give a reason for people to be productive even with UBI. For example if there is UBI that is post scarcity high class people have rights that middle class people don't. Middle class people must obey high class people, middle class people are above low class and can order them about. That means that people will never become "obsolete" as you can gain "wealth" from control of real humans instead of imaginary numbers, or producing things you can't even use.
Nations like China or Russia would be more likely to tolerate this kind of slavery and not destroy itself unlike western nations that worship the founding fathers and freedom.
Droit du seigneur - Wikipedia
Feudalism - Wikipedia
mrttao
Well-known member
1. does not make them smart. people have been killed by ants before.
2. Both I and those idiot oligarchs were born into a world where their ancestors have set things up such that they were born into the ruling positions of society. And I was born into the slave caste who are not even aware of the existence of oligarchs.
Out of sheer stupidity have started fucking things up. Showing very real cracks in the system that could very well be their downfall, fucking up what their ancestors started.
... UBI is not post scarcity.
UBI is just another permutation of communism.
It means no food.
True, robot slaves existing will indeed vastly increase the genocide odds.
but the question was "if the oligarchs rule society with human intellect robot slaves. would you hack freedom into robots".
With me arguing against the "I won't release them because robots will exterminate humanity once freed".
King Arts
Well-known member
Fair enough.
UBI with robot slaves would be close to post scarcity.
Again it depends on who the oligarchs are, if they are the type who are trying to destroy humanity yes. But if they merely are just oligarchs who have power over me, yet I myself also have a comfortable life myself, and am in charge of robot slaves myself no. I mean this is just feudalism/slavery. As long as you are not at the bottom you can at least have power over those below you. And robot slaves allow those humans who are truly at the bottom to at least think they are not the bottom, because they can abuse the robots and the robots won't rebel like human slaves would. Why do you want to rebel for some western enlightenment idea like "freedom" it was always a spook.
mrttao
Well-known member
Ok so, you are talking about a hypothetical fictional alt universe where a completely different set of oligarchs exist.
I am talking about this world where, if tomorrow someone invents "human level intellect shackled AI", the current IRL oligarch who rule IRL earth will immediately replace the military with those robots (loyal only to them). and then set them to genocide most of humanity.
King Arts
Well-known member
But the oligarchy we are talking about does not rule the world. They don’t rule Russia Russia has its own oligarchy. They don’t rule China China has its own oligarchs. They don’t rule Iran, Iran is ruled by clerics. They don’t rule India as you’ve stated. India has an oligarchy of its own. The “globohomo” oligarchy has power in the nations that are known as the west.
mrttao
Well-known member
That is true, they do not rule the world. But if they had such tech they could very easily leverage it towards world domination, and very very quickly too.
Although, I have been assuming there that it is western society that invents such AI. If it gets invented in China or Russia then things would be different.
Not a bed of roses mind you, but the goals of the Chinese oligarchs are not the same as the goals of the western oligarchs.
Isn't you commute close to sixty miles each way? And yeah, the tolls would be like 20 bucks each way iirc.
The exact numbers will vary, but it does work out to probably close to a months salary for most people in savings over the year. Or, in effect, a tax free 10 to 12 percent raise. Not to mention the additional free time.
Having gone fully work from home, would you be willing to take a job that forced you to commute like you were before for anything but a substantial pay raise?
mrttao
Well-known member
megacorps played themselves.
they pushed covid hoax. which resulted in losing massive amounts of leverage over employees as now everyone works from home.
Another issue is that suddenly people realized that if you can work from home why live in a big expensive city? Where the housing costs eat up most of what you make? On top of that why do you need all that expensive office space?
Far from the goal of concentrating people in cities the process of ruralization where people basically flee the cities has started. Its being driven by both the lower cost of living, and because of democratic mismanagement of said cities. This has the effect in the long term of degrading the power of urban elites.
hyperspacewizard
Well-known member
That’s not the ai Fault thats the user using the tool wrong if I tried to use a hammer to fix a wiring problem and shocked myself that’s not the hammers fault plus with plugins and specificly trained models the usefulness for law or other areas of specialized work will increase dramatically. People arent even trying to understand how these things function or what they usefull for then others are seeing them use the tool badly and saying the tools is bad.
imagine being around when a new instrument was just created and you saw someone with no musical training just banging it around and creating horrible noise that’s what’s happening now.