Description | Dead | Missing & POW | Total | Wounded & Sick |
---|---|---|---|---|
Army | ||||
Eastern Front | 1,105,987 | 1,018,365 | 2,124,352 | 3,498,059 |
North: Norway/Finland | 16,639 | 5,157 | 21,796 | 60,451 |
Southwest: N Africa/Italy | 50,481 | 194,250 | 244,731 | 163,602 |
Southeast: Balkans | 19,235 | 14,805 | 34,040 | 55,069 |
West: France/Low Countries | 107,042 | 409,715 | 516,757 | 399,856 |
Training Forces | 10,467 | 1,337 | 11,804 | 42,174 |
Died of Wounds-All Fronts | 295,659 | - | 295,659 | - |
Location not Given | 17,051 | 2,687 | 19,738 | - |
Subtotal (Army) | 1,622,561 | 1,646,316 | 3,268,877 | 4,188,037 |
Navy | 48,904 | 100,256 | 149,160 | 25,259 |
Air Force | 138,596 | 156,132 | 294,728 | 216,579 |
Total Combat: All Branches | 1,810,061 | 1,902,704 | 3,712,765 | 4,429,875 |
Other deaths (Disease, accidents, etc.) | 191,338 | - | 191,338 | - |
Overall total | 2,001,399 | 1,902,704 | 3,904,103 | 4,429,875 |
The Eastern Front was a complete meatgrinder but the Russians were propped up by lend-lease by several nations, and the Germans had to ensure their Western gains were secure.The justification I heard for why the Soviets won in Europe, basically single-handedly was this.
Table of German casualties by front, the Eastern Front (against the Soviets) accounts for approx 50% of all deaths in the war by the Germans.
Description Dead Missing & POW Total Wounded & Sick Army Eastern Front 1,105,987 1,018,365 2,124,352 3,498,059 North: Norway/Finland 16,639 5,157 21,796 60,451 Southwest: N Africa/Italy 50,481 194,250 244,731 163,602 Southeast: Balkans 19,235 14,805 34,040 55,069 West: France/Low Countries 107,042 409,715 516,757 399,856 Training Forces 10,467 1,337 11,804 42,174 Died of Wounds-All Fronts 295,659 - 295,659 - Location not Given 17,051 2,687 19,738 - Subtotal (Army) 1,622,561 1,646,316 3,268,877 4,188,037 Navy 48,904 100,256 149,160 25,259 Air Force 138,596 156,132 294,728 216,579 Total Combat: All Branches 1,810,061 1,902,704 3,712,765 4,429,875 Other deaths (Disease, accidents, etc.) 191,338 - 191,338 - Overall total 2,001,399 1,902,704 3,904,103 4,429,875
The better counter-argument would probably be to note that Russia killed the majority of all military aged men west of the Urals. Something like 80-85% of all young men west of the Uraks died at that point in time. Plus, the Germans got their forces within the metropolitan area of Moscow, within visual range of the heart. There's a Sabaton song about this. So any deviation from the historical events would have likely resulted in their downfall... Likely a better future.It'll still be VERY messy but jesus christ Russia had something like 50% of it's aviation gasoline from overseas.
Can't say anything about alt history politics, but I can say that I really dislike the 'Russia won the war for the allies' myth.The better counter-argument would probably be to note that Russia killed the majority of all military aged men west of the Urals. Something like 80-85% of all young men west of the Uraks died at that point in time. Plus, the Germans got their forces within the metropolitan area of Moscow, within visual range of the heart. There's a Sabaton song about this. So any deviation from the historical events would have likely resulted in their downfall... Likely a better future.
1) A German victory is very much not a better futureThe better counter-argument would probably be to note that Russia killed the majority of all military aged men west of the Urals. Something like 80-85% of all young men west of the Uraks died at that point in time. Plus, the Germans got their forces within the metropolitan area of Moscow, within visual range of the heart. There's a Sabaton song about this. So any deviation from the historical events would have likely resulted in their downfall... Likely a better future.
Logistics are going to be far less of a concern for the Germans when the Russians equally lose a comical amount of logistics without the infinite trucks America sent them.1) A German victory is very much not a better future
2) Logistics was the biggest limitation on German military operations at the culmination of their offensives into the Soviet Union, and not having to garrison the Western front does nothing about that
A more accurate summation would be that Russia not continuing to ally with Germany won the war; which really just came down to Hitler's arrogance and paranoia.Can't say anything about alt history politics, but I can say that I really dislike the 'Russia won the war for the allies' myth.
On the whole, America with its 'Infinite production' cheatcode won the war.
You're neglecting how much shit they were handed over for free.Russia had enough warm bodies to slow down the German advance until Marshal Zhukov could shout down Stalin. Once the actual soldiers got control, the Red Army started to change as a fighting force.
By 1945 it was an unstoppable armoured fist, filled with crack troops who essentially ran over the German reserves.
Russian+Germany in an alliance was never going to work because of the whole NSDAP "We hate commies" thing.A more accurate summation would be that Russia not continuing to ally with Germany won the war; which really just came down to Hitler's arrogance and paranoia.
True; but the original plan as I understand it was for them to save each other for last after they defeated all of their shared enemies. Hitler merely decided to jump the gun in an attempt to get ahead of Stalin potentially doing the same.You're neglecting how much shit they were handed over for free.
In terms of pairs of boots alone they got 15 MILLION.
92% of railroad production was foreign.
30% of their planes weren't Soviet.
33% Trucks were American.
We're talking about an army where without lend lease, it would've been less than 50% as effective than it historically was.
Russian+Germany in an alliance was never going to work because of the whole NSDAP "We hate commies" thing.
Considering the after-ww2 "Num half of Europe" thing the Soviets did, Hitler doesn't seem to have been completely wrong in attacking the Soviets.True; but the original plan as I understand it was for them to save each other for last after they defeated all of their shared enemies. Hitler merely decided to jump the gun in an attempt to get ahead of Stalin potentially doing the same.
1) A German victory is very much not a better future
2) Logistics was the biggest limitation on German military operations at the culmination of their offensives into the Soviet Union, and not having to garrison the Western front does nothing about that
1. Russia getting knocked out of the war would by no means guarantee German victory. They would still lack the ability to mount an effective invasion of Britain, they would still be navally blockaded, and even taking the Russian oilfields in the South would only do so much, given how vulnerable such places are to strategic bombing..
The Third Reich would, unfortunately, get the opportunity to implement General Plan Ost though. Not so fond of the Soviets, but I’d rather that the Slavs weren’t slaughtered in their tens of millions.
I quite agree. The USSR vs Nazi Germany was very much a case of 'Can we just have both lose?'
I said a Russian defeat would have been a better future, not a German victory. If your premise is that the Russians were not responsible for the victory then these are not mutually exclusive.1) A German victory is very much not a better future
That unstoppable armored fist however was powered by American trucks and American fuel.Russia had enough warm bodies to slow down the German advance until Marshal Zhukov could shout down Stalin. Once the actual soldiers got control, the Red Army started to change as a fighting force.
By 1945 it was an unstoppable armoured fist, filled with crack troops who essentially ran over the German reserves.
That is actually wrong.Well, the Soviets were a bunch of totalitarian lunatics who sought to enforce their vision on the world.
They didn’t see the Polish as Helots though.
The worst crimes of Communism are usually the result of the broken ideology being forced on situations where it just won’t work and millions of people suffer/starve to death as a result (with the important exception of the Khmer Rouge, who other communists thought were completely mental to the point that Vietnam intervened on humanitarian grounds!).
The National Socialists meanwhile murdered twelve million people on purpose, and would have killed oh so very many more if they’d got the chance. Mass murder was a feature, not a bug.
It’s why, to use a fictional example, I tend to view the war between the Reich and the Union as the Galactic Empire vs the Yuzhan Vong. Both are evil, but one is a particular breed of batshit insane.
Yeah, Nazis were ironically a good outcome. People miss the fact that even the Weimar Germany wanted a "payback" for the loss in World War I... and unlike the Nazis, it would, could and did ally with the Soviet Union on the long term, rather than as a short alliance of convenience.Russian+Germany in an alliance was never going to work because of the whole NSDAP "We hate commies" thing.
Soviets,not Russians.What russians remained fought on Hitler side.That's a pretty good video, and it gets me to thinking about an AU where Japan didn't attack the US, and instead invaded eastern Russia.
They had some strong historical reasons to not want to do so, but if they did, I don't see it going well for the Ruskies, given how deeply into Russia the Germans were at the time.
The Eastern Front was a complete meatgrinder but the Russians were propped up by lend-lease by several nations, and the Germans had to ensure their Western gains were secure.
Make Britain/America peace out/go neutral and Russia gets its head caved in by the Germans.
It'll still be VERY messy but jesus christ Russia had something like 50% of it's aviation gasoline from overseas. Halve the amount of sorties by Russia and Germany dominates the skies with trivial ease.
Well, the Soviets were a bunch of totalitarian lunatics who sought to enforce their vision on the world.
They didn’t see the Polish as Helots though.
The worst crimes of Communism are usually the result of the broken ideology being forced on situations where it just won’t work and millions of people suffer/starve to death as a result (with the important exception of the Khmer Rouge, who other communists thought were completely mental to the point that Vietnam intervened on humanitarian grounds!).
The National Socialists meanwhile murdered twelve million people on purpose, and would have killed oh so very many more if they’d got the chance. Mass murder was a feature, not a bug.
It’s why, to use a fictional example, I tend to view the war between the Reich and the Union as the Galactic Empire vs the Yuzhan Vong. Both are evil, but one is a particular breed of batshit insane.