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Yesterday's enterprise vs. the actual TNG

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Sigh.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Verity_(D63)

You do realize Star Trek borrows heavily from both the US Navy and British Royal Navy right????
You do realize the new stuff is written by hypsters that basically ripped off the plot of some indie videogame, have blue hair and nose piercings, and probably know more about MLP than they do about ships, right?
I mean, we are talking the same geniuses that gave us SONAR IN SPACE and interstellar travel via some form of space fungus...
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
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You do realize the new stuff is written by hypsters that basically ripped off the plot of some indie videogame, have blue hair and nose piercings, and probably know more about MLP than they do about ships, right?
I mean, we are talking the same geniuses that gave us SONAR IN SPACE and interstellar travel via some form of space fungus...
Sigh Paramount mostly uses actual ship names so that they can make references in later episodes or shows. It is one of the hard rules they have.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
I mean, Space Battleship Yamato 2199 gave us both space sonar and a space U-Boat. :giggle:


Yamato is IIRC as old as TOS, which had sonic weapons in SPAACE.
And also a kids show.

Sigh Paramount mostly uses actual ship names so that they can make references in later episodes or shows. It is one of the hard rules they have.
Won'tbe the first time they have managed to shit the bed with the franchise...
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
So, could have YTE been a better show or a decent spin off, was it even that good of an episode and did it make any real sense?

It was a good episode and made a degree of sense (not a lot, usually ST time travel doesn't result in the timeline being altered like this, but whatever, time travel is plot device). It does undermine ST VI a bit by essentially saying it was irrelevant and the real moment that cemented the Federation and Klingon alliance was this single incident decades later.


It would not have been a better show or series. DS9 spent years building up to the Dominion War and it was still very controversial when they did that, trying to flip the script and make a darker, war focused TNG out of nowhere would have been awful.

As for the ship, Id love to know the difference between the Battleship Enterprise and how it would stack up against, say, a Dominion War Galaxy Refit? That's a good one there.

As far as I know there's no solid evidence the so call "War Galaxy" even exists, so presumably the Yesterday's Enterprise Galaxy would have the edge.....though likely a minor one, as it doesn't posses any major modifications or differences from the prime timeline version. It might have the internal structure rearranged to make room for the infantry it can transport, and it has some changes to how the bridge was laid out, but it's tactical systems appear on par with the ship we see in the rest of the show.

I think it's worth restating the point that while the GCS is, deservedly, mocked for combining the functions of a cruise ship and battleship into one hull in videos like this:



That video is not entirely correct. The GCS combined two different roles into one, but it didn't sacrifice one in favor of the other as people imply.
 

S'task

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I mean, from a hull role design perspective the Galaxy and Ambassador classes were both failed designs. Consider how long the various hulls served as an Enterprise:

NCC-1701 (Constitution/Constitution Refit): 2245 - 2285 = 40 Years
NCC-1701-A (Constitution Refit): 2286 - 2293 = 7 Years
NCC-1701-B (Excelsior): 2293 - 2337 = 44 Years
NCC-1701-C (Ambassador): 2337 - 2344 = 7 Years
NCC-1701-B (Galaxy): 2363 - 2371 = 8 Years

These are some damning numbers for the Ambassador and Galaxy hulls. Both the Constitution and Excelsior Enterprises saw around a 40 year service span, the Excelsior-class hull saw an over 100 year service in the Federation Starfleet, and proved to be a highly reliable and upgradable design able to support even very advanced weapon systems like Quantum Torpedoes and high end phaser arrays.

The Galaxy and Ambassador classes both were supposed to replace the Excelsior as the premier heavy cruiser of the Federation... and considering how quickly both were phased out for newer designs in that role, while the Excelsior stuck around... it seems neither could really fulfill the role as envisioned by Starfleet.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
...The Galaxy and Ambassador classes both were supposed to replace the Excelsior as the premier heavy cruiser of the Federation... and considering how quickly both were phased out for newer designs in that role, while the Excelsior stuck around... it seems neither could really fulfill the role as envisioned by Starfleet.
I have a feeling 'designed by committee' was stamped on the keel plate.
 

Battlegrinder

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I mean, from a hull role design perspective the Galaxy and Ambassador classes were both failed designs. Consider how long the various hulls served as an Enterprise:

NCC-1701 (Constitution/Constitution Refit): 2245 - 2285 = 40 Years
NCC-1701-A (Constitution Refit): 2286 - 2293 = 7 Years
NCC-1701-B (Excelsior): 2293 - 2337 = 44 Years
NCC-1701-C (Ambassador): 2337 - 2344 = 7 Years
NCC-1701-B (Galaxy): 2363 - 2371 = 8 Years

These are some damning numbers for the Ambassador and Galaxy hulls. Both the Constitution and Excelsior Enterprises saw around a 40 year service span, the Excelsior-class hull saw an over 100 year service in the Federation Starfleet, and proved to be a highly reliable and upgradable design able to support even very advanced weapon systems like Quantum Torpedoes and high end phaser arrays.

The Galaxy and Ambassador classes both were supposed to replace the Excelsior as the premier heavy cruiser of the Federation... and considering how quickly both were phased out for newer designs in that role, while the Excelsior stuck around... it seems neither could really fulfill the role as envisioned by Starfleet.


I'm a bit less sold on that, given the real reason the Excelsior "stuck around" for so long was because it took the show until like season 4 to get the budget for a new model miniature, and until then they were stuck with just the ones they already had on hand. In universe, yes the Excelsior design stuck around, but I think you're overstating it's length of service as the premiere starfleet cruiser. Yes, the design is long lasting, but by the 24th century they're second or third line ships, with Galaxies, Nebula, and Ambassadors serving out on the frontier (also, the Miranda is still in service during the same period, and I don't think anyone would classify it as the pinnacle of Federation starship design).

And judging the class by how long thier respective Enterprises is a very poor metric. The C was destroyed in action fighting at 4:1 odds against peer opponents, saying it's a bad design because it lost that fight is tremendously unfair (do we have any reason to thing the B would have done any better there?). Likewise for the D, which per All Good Things could have been cruising along just fine in 2395, and was destroyed only through deception and tactical incompetence/the need to get it out of the way and replace it with something more suited for the big screen.

In terms of how long a design lasted until it was superceded by a newer design (based on non-canon sources, granted, as the show itself isn't very precise avout this), the Excelsior is still long lived, but not quite as impressive as you suggest, it only just outlasts the Ambassador:

Consitution: 2244-2285 (41 years)
Excelsior: 2285-2325 (40 years)
Ambassador: 2325-2357 (32 years)
Galaxy: 2357-2370 (13 years)
Sovereign: 2370-2380 (10 years)
Oddessy: 2380-2410s (30 years and counting)

And frankly, the fact that the Excelsior lasted so long is, in my opinion, merely a side effect of Starfleet's design priorities at the time. It happened to enter service just as the Constitution was entering the end of it's viable service life and as the detente with Klingons was forming. Once that started to fade, the Ambassadors were rolled out, and when startfleet freaked out over the Borg and Dominion and started really pushing starship development, the design turnover rate increased rapidly. That doesn't mean older designs are just so much better, it means there wasn't as much pressure to improve and replace them (and a number of entirely out of universe production factors).
 
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Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
the fact that the Excelsior lasted so long is, in my opinion, merely a side effect of Starfleet's design priorities at the time.

I'd say sentimentality is probably a big factor. In TNG, the Excelsior class seemed to be exclusively used by really old admirals. Perhaps it was just a favorite of theirs from way back when. Starfleet probably isn't producing the Excelsior anymore by the time of TNG. Younger captains are flying around in new ships like Olympics and Nebulas. The only time we see a young captain piloting an Excelsior is in the DS9 two-parter episode "Paradise Lost", where its captain was loyal to Admiral Leyton and was just transferred to it. She was Admiral Leyton's most trusted officer and Leyton is trying to orchestrate a coup on Earth, so he probably bequeathed the ship to her.
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
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The main benefit of aluminum is that it's really light when compared to steel on a strength-to-weight basis.

It's also worthless when used as armour because it's not dense enough or rigid enough to stop an armour peircing round and incendiary rounds can easily set aluminum on fire.

EDIT: solid rocket motors typically use ammonium perchlorate, powdered aluminum, and a plastic binder. Once lit those fires can not be easily extinguished so you better know what you're doing when you strike the match.
Didn't the original M113 APCs have issues with their aluminium armour? Something about it catching fire when hit with certain munitions?
 

Jormungandr

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They're fucking hot garbage is what they are.
The M113 has been adapted into anything and everything, though -- I'd say that although the underlying design is pretty shit, it's one of the most successful vehicles out there (especially decades ago) because of how versatile it is.

I mean, pretty much anything can be mounted onto or built into it, NATO/Western, ex-Soviet, or Chinese-made crap included.
 

Spartan303

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Osaul
The M113 has been adapted into anything and everything, though -- I'd say that although the underlying design is pretty shit, it's one of the most successful vehicles out there (especially decades ago) because of how versatile it is.

I mean, pretty much anything can be mounted onto or built into it, NATO/Western, ex-Soviet, or Chinese-made crap included.


How did we get on this subject in the Trek thread?
 

Jormungandr

The Midgard Wyrm
Founder
How did we get on this subject in the Trek thread?
Aluminium in armour was brought up by @bintananth, and the first thing that came to mind was the M113, so I asked if I remembered correctly that the armour was, well, flammable, I guess, because it was aluminium-based over other options e.g. steel, titanium.

Then you said the vehicle was garbage, which is true, and it went from there, lol.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
Founder
I have a feeling 'designed by committee' was stamped on the keel plate.
The Galaxy Class is what you get when you let Diplomats and Starbase Admirals design a warship.
The Odyssey and the Sovereign are what you get when you let Combat Admirals design a warship

I'm a bit less sold on that, given the real reason the Excelsior "stuck around" for so long was because it took the show until like season 4 to get the budget for a new model miniature, and until then they were stuck with just the ones they already had on hand. In universe, yes the Excelsior design stuck around, but I think you're overstating it's length of service as the premiere starfleet cruiser. Yes, the design is long lasting, but by the 24th century they're second or third line ships, with Galaxies, Nebula, and Ambassadors serving out on the frontier (also, the Miranda is still in service during the same period, and I don't think anyone would classify it as the pinnacle of Federation starship design).

And judging the class by how long thier respective Enterprises is a very poor metric. The C was destroyed in action fighting at 4:1 odds against peer opponents, saying it's a bad design because it lost that fight is tremendously unfair (do we have any reason to thing the B would have done any better there?). Likewise for the D, which per All Good Things could have been cruising along just fine in 2395, and was destroyed only through deception and tactical incompetence/the need to get it out of the way and replace it with something more suited for the big screen.

In terms of how long a design lasted until it was superceded by a newer design (based on non-canon sources, granted, as the show itself isn't very precise avout this), the Excelsior is still long lived, but not quite as impressive as you suggest, it only just outlasts the Ambassador:

Consitution: 2244-2285 (41 years)
Excelsior: 2285-2325 (40 years)
Ambassador: 2325-2357 (32 years)
Galaxy: 2357-2370 (13 years)
Sovereign: 2370-2380 (10 years)
Oddessy: 2380-2410s (30 years and counting)

And frankly, the fact that the Excelsior lasted so long is, in my opinion, merely a side effect of Starfleet's design priorities at the time. It happened to enter service just as the Constitution was entering the end of it's viable service life and as the detente with Klingons was forming. Once that started to fade, the Ambassadors were rolled out, and when startfleet freaked out over the Borg and Dominion and started really pushing starship development, the design turnover rate increased rapidly. That doesn't mean older designs are just so much better, it means there wasn't as much pressure to improve and replace them (and a number of entirely out of universe production factors).
Star-Trek-Picard-USS-Excelsior.jpg


Um Battlegrinder they did a major refit to the Excelsior class in Season 2 of Star Trek Picard............
 
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Battlegrinder

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Obozny
Um Battlegrinder they did a major refit to the Excelsior class in Season 2 of Star Trek Picard............

Bold of you to assume I admit Picard is canon.

Though more seriously, I'm not sure what that proves? I was listing how long a design lasted before being superseded by a larger, more powerful ship class, not how long the entire class is in service. The Excelsior stuck around for a while after the Ambassador and GCS hit the scene, yes. So?

I'd also note that in general starfleet seems oddly prone to keeping ships in service/production for as long as possible, the only class I can actually recall being retired is the Constitution, other designs seem to stay in service for ages (speaking of Picard, I recall seeing that a Miranda refit was included in Picard, for goodness know what reason). In that context, the fact that the Excelsior is still around makes it even less notable, as it's merely one of many long serving designs within the fleet.
 

Spartan303

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Osaul
I'd say sentimentality is probably a big factor. In TNG, the Excelsior class seemed to be exclusively used by really old admirals. Perhaps it was just a favorite of theirs from way back when. Starfleet probably isn't producing the Excelsior anymore by the time of TNG. Younger captains are flying around in new ships like Olympics and Nebulas. The only time we see a young captain piloting an Excelsior is in the DS9 two-parter episode "Paradise Lost", where its captain was loyal to Admiral Leyton and was just transferred to it. She was Admiral Leyton's most trusted officer and Leyton is trying to orchestrate a coup on Earth, so he probably bequeathed the ship to her.


I don't think so. Sentimentality only goes so far. We saw in DS9 that the Lakota refit made that ship one deadly beast. Meaning that the Excelsior class still had a ton of life left in it. By the time of the Dominion war there were over 400 of them in service. That ship design is probably the most ship design in Starfleet history. At least to date.
 

Sailor.X

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I don't think so. Sentimentality only goes so far. We saw in DS9 that the Lakota refit made that ship one deadly beast. Meaning that the Excelsior class still had a ton of life left in it. By the time of the Dominion war there were over 400 of them in service. That ship design is probably the most ship design in Starfleet history. At least to date.
They are 23rd/24th/25th Century Arleigh Burkes for sure.
 

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