Yesterday's enterprise vs. the actual TNG

[Agent23]

Ok, @Spartan303 and I somehow brought up the closest thing to a Mirror Universe that TNG had, that being yesterday's enterprise, a seemingly more militaristic and badass version of regular TNG where the Feds and the Klingons have been at war for, what 30 years?

In any case, there are a few things about this IIRC iconic episode that were nice, and some that did not, like the total lack of butterfly effect.

I think that when I last saw the show, oh, over a decade ago it looked fun, but the hardass Picard sounds kinda disingenuous and tongue in cheek to me.

So, could have YTE been a better show or a decent spin off, was it even that good of an episode and did it make any real sense?

 

[Spartan303]

Ok, @Spartan303 and I somehow brought up the closest thing to a Mirror Universe that TNG had, that being yesterday's enterprise, a seemingly more militaristic and badass version of regular TNG where the Feds and the Klingons have been at war for, what 30 years?

In any case, there are a few things about this IIRC iconic episode that were nice, and some that did not, like the total lack of butterfly effect.

I think that when I last saw the show, oh, over a decade ago it looked fun, but the hardass Picard sounds kinda disingenuous and tongue in cheek to me.

So, could have YTE been a better show or a decent spin off, was it even that good of an episode and did it make any real sense?

He was more formal and business like with Riker and with the crew. Picard has always been a reserved man, but there was a downright coldness to him here. He was mission focused and mission oriented with very little room for anything else.

The differences seem subtle, but they're actually profound.


As for the ship, Id love to know the difference between the Battleship Enterprise and how it would stack up against, say, a Dominion War Galaxy Refit? That's a good one there.

 

[Agent23]

He was more formal and business like with Riker and with the crew. Picard has always been a reserved man, but there was a downright coldness to him here. He was mission focused and mission oriented with very little room for anything else.

The differences seem subtle, but they're actually profound.


As for the ship, Id love to know the difference between the Battleship Enterprise and how it would stack up against, say, a Dominion War Galaxy Refit? That's a good one there.

I'd think there the layout would have changed, and that we'd see more external heavy weapons and armor.
Think of the huge phaser add on on the Galaxy X or the extra weapons pods on the Akira.

Less science teams and no families on board would also require a smaller saucer shapes like a wedge so as to put more armamwbts on, or maybe a more compact design to minimize attack surface and shield spread.

Dunno, as to alt Picard, well he sounded a bit too "fake" to me in that clip, like he was playing it for the lulz.

 

[Spartan303]

I'd think there the layout would have changed, and that we'd see more external heavy weapons and armor.
Think of the huge phaser add on on the Galaxy X or the extra weapons pods on the Akira.

Less science teams and no families on board would also require a smaller saucer shapes like a wedge so as to put more armamwbts on, or maybe a more compact design to minimize attack surface and shield spread.

Dunno, as to alt Picard, well he sounded a bit too "fake" to me in that clip, like he was playing it for the lulz.

If I remember correct they had additional shield generators and stocks of photon torpedoes. Enterprise also had a compliment or, at least the capacity, to hold 6 thousand troops comfortably, aside from her main crew. That is not insignificant. This would imply greater life support reserves. The ship is over 650 meters long.

I mean...look how massive this ship is!

 

[Agent23]

If I remember correct they had additional shield generators and stocks of photon torpedoes. Enterprise also had a compliment or, at least the capacity, to hold 6 thousand troops comfortably, aside from her main crew. That is not insignificant. This would imply greater life support reserves. The ship is over 650 meters long.

I mean...look how massive this ship is!

And it had lots of entertainment facilities, schools, lots of science labs and non military staff that had no function on a combat ship.

The saucer was also detachable and capable of serving as an escape craft iirc, but an unarmed one.

Remove the huge saucer and replace it with a smaller arrowhead with more weapons, make the crew even smaller and make the ship more spartan.

Then maybe it would be a bit more realistic.

TBH the concept was kinda cool, but not the execution and there was definitely something off about Stewart's delivery.

The uniforms should have been more utilitarian, the weapons - more practical, particularly the sidearms, the staff should have been changed, and maybe Picard should have been Riker's XO.

 

[Spartan303]

And it had lots of entertainment facilities, schools, lots of science labs and non military staff that had no function on a combat ship.

The saucer was also detachable and capable of serving as an escape craft iirc, but an unarmed one.

Remove the huge saucer and replace it with a smaller arrowhead with more weapons, make the crew even smaller and make the ship more spartan.

Then maybe it would be a bit more realistic.

TBH the concept was kinda cool, but not the execution and there was definitely something off about Stewart's delivery.

The uniforms should have been more utilitarian, the weapons - more practical, particularly the sidearms, the staff should have been changed, and maybe Picard should have been Riker's XO.

I actually agree with you. Maybe something more like the Galaxy EVO?

 

[Agent23]

I actually agree with you. Maybe something more like the Galaxy EVO?

First off, I hate that bent neck.

Do we even need all those windows on a warship?!?!

Anyway, I was thinking something more along the lines of Voyager or the Prometheus for the main hull design, with more armor and maybe pylon armor/hardening.

Maybe the big phaser from the Galaxy-X but mounted SPINALLY!

Also, either Riker or Picard should have had a pirate-style eyepatch.

Maybe it would serve as a replacement eye, sure, but it would have been fun.

Also, the federation losing against the Klingons kinda sucked, I think it would have been nice if they were winning, but doing it so in a rather nasty way, like mass bombardment.

If this is to be made into a series then maybe we should go into how the Klingons have enlisted the Cardassians and various other baddy species into an escalating multi-Quadrant spanning war.

This can actually make a wonderful fanfic.

 

[Sailor.X]

If I remember correct they had additional shield generators and stocks of photon torpedoes. Enterprise also had a compliment or, at least the capacity, to hold 6 thousand troops comfortably, aside from her main crew. That is not insignificant. This would imply greater life support reserves. The ship is over 650 meters long.

I mean...look how massive this ship is!

And you know what is even more scary. The USS Verity Picard's last command dwarfed both the Enterprise D and E.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

So, could have YTE been a better show or a decent spin off, was it even that good of an episode and did it make any real sense?

Yesterday's Enterprise was a good one off episode but I would be skeptical if it could have been stretched out longer than that without wearing out its welcome, like how NuBSG was a great miniseries but the show became dreary and stale half way through the first season.

It's important to remember that people liked Star Trek because it was a fun space western. It's generally not a good idea to build up an audience and then try to shift genres and sell this completely new thing to that same audience (see Stargate Universe where people expected a fun, heroic space western and instead got a bleak horror story about everyone being an unlikeable jerkass stuck on a spaceship and killing each other). As war centric as later DS9 was, it was still predominately a space western, with only the final season having mostly war centric episodes.

 

[bintananth]

Do we even need all those windows on a warship?!?

No, we don't

Enterprize-D is 641m long (~2,100ft or
2/5 of a mile) and engineers who know what they're looking at wouldn't give any Starfleet Engineer or Seince Officer the the time of day if they think that's a good idea.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Do we even need all those windows on a warship?!?!

Windows in Star Trek aren't mere glass, they're not any weaker or softer than the surrounding opaque hull is so having scads of windows doesn't actually compromise the structural integrity in any significant way. Actually, given Scotty sought them out to build a whale tank instead of just using the hull, they could be tougher. Even Klingon battlecuisers have a vast array of windows.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Transparent_aluminum

Spoiler

 

[Bassoe]

Windows in Star Trek aren't mere glass, they're not any weaker or softer than the surrounding opaque hull is so having scads of windows doesn't actually compromise the structural integrity in any significant way.

Plus, any weapon that gets through the energy shielding is going to completely fuck up wherever it hits regardless of what the hull there is made of.

 

[bintananth]

Plus, any weapon that gets through the energy shielding is going to completely fuck up wherever it hits regardless of what the hull there is made of.

I never explained it when writing Tintagel but the Llyrians don't really bother with armour while humanity does and knows that it'll take several feet of armour to stop our weapons. Llyrian warships have deflector shields. Human warships do not but are 3-4 orders of magnitude larger.

 

[Agent23]

The USS Verity.

Verity, let me guess, the infantile writers of DSO/Picard actually called a starship after an MLP character?

Windows in Star Trek aren't mere glass, they're not any weaker or softer than the surrounding opaque hull is so having scads of windows doesn't actually compromise the structural integrity in any significant way. Actually, given Scotty sought them out to build a whale tank instead of just using the hull, they could be tougher. Even Klingon battlecuisers have a vast array of windows.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Transparent_aluminum

Spoiler

Um, aluminum isn't all that strong, and in any case adding windows would be extra time and resources spent during construction.

 

[bintananth]

Verity, let me guess, the infantile writers of DSO/Picard actually called a starship after an MLP character?



Um, aluminum isn't all that strong, and in any case adding windows would be extra time and resources spent during construction.

The main benefit of aluminum is that it's really light when compared to steel on a strength-to-weight basis.

It's also worthless when used as armour because it's not dense enough or rigid enough to stop an armour peircing round and incendiary rounds can easily set aluminum on fire.

EDIT: solid rocket motors typically use ammonium perchlorate, powdered aluminum, and a plastic binder. Once lit those fires can not be easily extinguished so you better know what you're doing when you strike the match.

 

[Agent23]

The main benefit of aluminum is that it's really light when compared to steel on a strength-to-weight basis.

It's also worthless when used as armour because it's not dense enough or rigid enough to stop an armour peircing round and incendiary rounds can easily set aluminum on fire.

EDIT: solid rocket motors typically use ammonium perchlorate, powdered aluminum, and a plastic binder. Once lit those fires can not be easily extinguished so you better know what you're doing when you strike the match.

I mean, we have much stronger materials now, the biggest problem with us using a hell of a lot more titanium for instance is that there isn't enough of the ore.

The Federation has access to a lot more energy and better fabrication processes than we do, and potentially every singe asteroid in every single solar system they have access to can be smelted, and don't get me started on transmutation and extraction via replicator and transporter tech, potential uses of tehir nanotech and the like.

They do not need aluminum windows on starships with FTL sensor tech.

 

[bintananth]

I mean, we have much stronger materials now, the biggest problem with us using a hell of a lot more titanium for instance is that there isn't enough of the ore.

The Federation has access to a lot more energy and better fabrication processes than we do, and potentially every singe asteroid in every single solar system they have access to can be smelted, and don't get me started on transmutation and extraction via replicator and transporter tech, potential uses of tehir nanotech and the like.

They do not need aluminum windows on starships with FTL sensor tech.

When you have warp drives, deflector shields, FTL sensors, and FTL weapons which can breach defenses with ease a "hotel in space" is just asking for a disaster.

The linear accelerators used for medical purposes are inside concrete vaults with approximately three foot (i.e: one meter) walls. Double that and add two inches of lead for the parts of the vault the linear accelerator gets aimed at and the parts which get the recoil.

 

[Agent23]

When you have warp drives, deflector shields, FTL sensors, and FTL weapons which can breach defenses with ease a "hotel in space" is just asking for a disaster.

The linear accelerators used for medical purposes are inside concrete vaults with approximately three foot (i.e: one meter) walls. Double that and add two inches of lead for the parts of the vault the linear accelerator gets aimed at and the parts which get the recoil.

This is turning into The MST3King of Trek.

Plus, any weapon that gets through the energy shielding is going to completely fuck up wherever it hits regardless of what the hull there is made of.

Didn't the Feds have some form of structural integrity field, that basically made hulls harder to destroy though?

Also, the ablative armor in Voyager appeared to do some good.

Yesterday's Enterprise was a good one off episode but I would be skeptical if it could have been stretched out longer than that without wearing out its welcome, like how NuBSG was a great miniseries but the show became dreary and stale half way through the first season.

It's important to remember that people liked Star Trek because it was a fun space western. It's generally not a good idea to build up an audience and then try to shift genres and sell this completely new thing to that same audience (see Stargate Universe where people expected a fun, heroic space western and instead got a bleak horror story about everyone being an unlikeable jerkass stuck on a spaceship and killing each other). As war centric as later DS9 was, it was still predominately a space western, with only the final season having mostly war centric episodes.

I was thinking of a spinoff universe for those that like darker and edgier stuff, with the "Original craw" dying off or getting promoted, like, say captain Picard and commodore Riker coming in as cameos.

A lot of the sets could also be recycled and in theory you can run the show on a much smaller budget.

A book series could also work, and, as I said, a fanfic.

I am also wondering what people, as in, the usual TS/SB/other autistic MilSF forum nerds like us would have preferred to watch.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Um, aluminum isn't all that strong, and in any case adding windows would be extra time and resources spent during construction.

Transparent Aluminum isn't pure aluminum with all the same properties except transparent, that's bats. If you asked a modern-day engineer for some, they'd hand you a chunk of synthetic sapphire. However, whatever they call it in Trek is a fairly complex molecule containing aluminum, hydrogen, and either actinium or silver, not sure if that's AC or AG. Though, I rather presume whatever they displayed was technobabble and that's not a real-world compound.

As far as installing windows, there's no reason to make the assumption that they add any significant time or difficulty to ship construction. It's not as if the hull is fabricated all in one piece in the first place and they have to laboriously cut windows in it. If windows were such a problem every single major power wouldn't be cheerfully adding them everywhere, at least somebody should have stumbled on the notion of not adding tons of extra expense entirely for the view.

 

[Agent23]

Transparent Aluminum isn't pure aluminum with all the same properties except transparent, that's bats. If you asked a modern-day engineer for some, they'd hand you a chunk of synthetic sapphire. However, whatever they call it in Trek is a fairly complex molecule containing aluminum, hydrogen, and either actinium or silver, not sure if that's AC or AG. Though, I rather presume whatever they displayed was technobabble and that's not a real-world compound.

As far as installing windows, there's no reason to make the assumption that they add any significant time or difficulty to ship construction. It's not as if the hull is fabricated all in one piece in the first place and they have to laboriously cut windows in it. If windows were such a problem every single major power wouldn't be cheerfully adding them everywhere, at least somebody should have stumbled on the notion of not adding tons of extra expense entirely for the view.

It is probably easier and cheaper to slap together deck and hull plates, though.

Less stuff to fabricate and install usually means faster and cheaper process.