Russia(gate/bot) Mikhail Gorbachev, last leader of the USSR, has passed away.

Marduk said:
www.reuters.com

Putin denies Gorbachev a state funeral and will stay away

Russian President Vladimir Putin is to miss the funeral of the last Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev, denying the man who failed to prevent the collapse of the Soviet empire the full state honours granted to Boris Yeltsin.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
That sends quite a message...
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Yes.That Putin is still colonel who do not undarstandt that soviets were falling anyway,and Gorbaczow had good plan to prevent that,which could worked IF he have more luck.
Or faced Bush instead of Reagan.
In both cases,stronger soviet union merged with european union would existed til our days.
 
ATP said:
Yes.That Putin is still colonel who do not undarstandt that soviets were falling anyway,and Gorbaczow had good plan to prevent that,which could worked IF he have more luck.
Or faced Bush instead of Reagan.
In both cases,stronger soviet union merged with european union would existed til our days.
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The Common European Home, if you will.

The August plotters really fucked things up from a Soviet perspective. From a Western perspective, though, what they did was great.
 
WolfBear said:
The Ukrainians were interested in some kind of loose confederation arrangement. Thus, couldn't an EU-style arrangement have been worked out?
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Possibly, but the USSR lacked the "everyone has an equal voice" traditions needed to make it work.

Even countries which do have those traditions routinely screw it up because lots of people can't accept that they're way isn't necessarily the best way to go.
 
Eh, objectively he was just a terrible leader. Good for us in the West, probably, but the USSR I believe fell due to his weakness, not his strength.

The USSR falling I don't think was inevitable. Given plenty of Communists looked at what Gorbachev did/was doing, went "that's retarded", and didn't do it, and likewise didn't fall. Chinas still here, Cuba's still here, North Korea's still here.

It would be nice if communism was simply doomed by some direction of history, but the more I looked into it, the less sure I am of that.

I'm sure for Russian its especially hard to argue for the inevitable collapse of Communism with China right there across they're Southern boarder, moving from Strength to Strength.

A better leader might have been able to transition the USSR through a China reform, and either be richer now, or exactly the same without some giant collapse.

Like I said, good for us, hard to argue he was good for Russians.
 
JagerIV said:
Eh, objectively he was just a terrible leader. Good for us in the West, probably, but the USSR I believe fell due to his weakness, not his strength.

The USSR falling I don't think was inevitable. Given plenty of Communists looked at what Gorbachev did/was doing, went "that's retarded", and didn't do it, and likewise didn't fall. Chinas still here, Cuba's still here, North Korea's still here.

It would be nice if communism was simply doomed by some direction of history, but the more I looked into it, the less sure I am of that.

I'm sure for Russian its especially hard to argue for the inevitable collapse of Communism with China right there across they're Southern boarder, moving from Strength to Strength.

A better leader might have been able to transition the USSR through a China reform, and either be richer now, or exactly the same without some giant collapse.

Like I said, good for us, hard to argue he was good for Russians.
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USSR falling softly through his weakness was far from the worst possible scenario for the people inhabiting it. Ironically, some of them may be about to experience the alternate option of Cuba/North Korea style route soon. I doubt they will enjoy that alternative.
 
Sergeant Foley said:
Ironically Vietnam and US are friends today
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Ho Chi Minh actually respected the US a great deal and wanted the French to leave.

We wouldn't give him the time of day and backed France. The Soviets said "we'll help" and Communism just sorta came along for the ride.
 
bintananth said:
Ho Chi Minh actually respected the US a great deal and wanted the French to leave.

We wouldn't give him the time of day and backed France. The Soviets said "we'll help" and Communism just sorta came along for the ride.
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Technically you're saying France instigated this mess?
 
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