Star Trek The General Star Trek Thread - From TOS to Corporate Schenanigans

bintananth

behind a desk
Firstly, SENATE. The Romulan are Space-Rome/Dark Elves, they had a SENATE, not a dirty barbarian Parliament. :p

Secondly, yeah, Nemesis did the Romulans very dirty, especially via the introductions of the Remans. They were one of the most nonsensical additions to the Romulans they could come up with. A powerful telepathic species kept enslaved by the Romulans? Can I see the Romulans keeping slave races? Not really, it doesn't fit with their space Rome / space Eastern Bloc motif (slaves would have been more a Klingon might makes right space Vikings thing). If they DID have slaves, it should have been a hodgepodge of species AND Romulans as it should have been a status that people could fall to. Then you make the villain of Nemesis Sela, who was leading a slave rebellion against the Senate, as she had been reduced in status to that of a slave due to all her failures in TNG, and with the Romulan military weakened in the aftermath of the Dominion War and so not as able to put down a rebellion.
I can see the Romulans keeping slaves because that does fit the Space-Roman motif. The Kingons? Not so much because they'd just kill you and call it a day ending in "-y" because both taking prisoners and surrendering is dishonorable. They're more Space-Samurai than Space-Vikings.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
A TOS parody that doesn't get brought up much (because it's X-rated and I will provide no links): Sex Trek

If you ingnore the fact that it's porn and watch it for its artistic merits it's ... pretty good and funny. It takes several actual TOS plots, combines them into one, and doesn't take itself seriously because it was never intended to be shown where a kid or censor might see it.
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
I came up with a way to explain The Burn and why shit happens all the way back in the 22nd century. Plus it can explain a few things in Picard.

The Burn wasn't some kid making dilithium deactivate because his mom died. The Burn was a First Strike against the Q Continuum by a an extra galactic race that wanted to wipe them out.

Their First Strike badly damaged or outright collapsed Subspace across the Milky Way Galaxy and the Q have been trying to fix things ever since but much like the movie T2 Judgement day. They can't fix shit because they are neck deep in an invasion. Time Travel shenanigans doesn't help because too much temporal damage will cause the whole house to fall down.

All of the strange phenomena, the Temporal war and such can be laid at the feet of this horrific war. Where humans and most of the races you know are simply caught in the crossfire of a war they can barely understand let alone influence.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
Denizens of the Sietch.

Would I be wrong in saying that, if the Defiant is what happens when Star Fleet tries its hand at a warship, then the Sovereign class is when the Feddies build a battleship.

USS_Enterprise_E_First_Contact.jpg


Seriously, this thing is a monster. As I understand it, it could slag an Imperial Star Destroyer in short order.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
It's beefy, but still only about 1/4 the length of an ISD. And most of the volume is NOT dedicated to war. Whereas the entirety of the ISD IS dedicated to warfighting, though a large part of it is for storage and transport of ground forces that won't necessarily matter in a space fight. That being said, all those infantry and repel boarders, become boarders, or just generally assist in repairs and damage control. (If I'm a smart Imperial commander. ALL of my ground forces will train in such activities.)

Down side for this comparison is that we have no real understanding of how the different techs (SW sv ST) compare.
Phaser vs Turbolaser? (ISD has LOTS more of these than the Sovereign does)
Quantum Torpedo vs Proton Torpedo? (IIRC, an ISD has more of these than the Sovereign does)
Shields vs Shields? (Frankly, no idea here about relative merits)
Armor vs Armor? (LOTS more armor on an ISD than a Sovereign)
Maneuverability? (probably goes to the Sovereign, but maybe not. Fed ships tend turn like pigs...and ISDs)
Parasites? (Almost 100 fighters and bombers on the ISD (this does not count the ground assault shuttles for the Imperial troops) vs some shuttles on the Sovereign)

Straight up fight I think would go to the ISD, though the Sovereign may be able to capitalize on ST TECH Wizardry (however we want to say that effects the fight).
 

Vyor

My influence grows!
Shields vs Shields? (Frankly, no idea here about relative merits)

ST shields are absolute crap. They are so vulnerable to just some fancy frequency manipulations that it's impressive no one built a tool to exploit that(oh wait, they did so they could fight the borg... and proceeded to not use it elsewhere because plot).

SW shields, on the other hand, do not suffer that weakness and, based on how much damage turbolasers do to other ships, should be able to resist most of what an ST ship throws at it. Though this obviously depends on what calculations you use for ST(some would say they obliterate continents with a single torpedo, but considering we don't actually see that happen...).

Essentially: most people would put SW ahead of ST in most areas bar personal weapons(especially logistical, jesus fuck does SW ftl move fast). Overall, I would put SW around the level of 40k, with 40k having the scale advantage and SW having a logistical one.


Of course none of this matters if you're writing a story for that universe, for obvious reasons the author can do what they like. I personally like having each faction keeping their home strengths and weaknesses(in this case, ST has some insane sensors and has replicators so any tech disadvantage would be short lived). So if I were to write a story where the feddies and the empire interacted, I would have them outmatched in a sluggout but slowly overcome their weaknesses thanks to working with the rebel alliance and through reverse engineering.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
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ST shields are absolute crap. They are so vulnerable to just some fancy frequency manipulations that it's impressive no one built a tool to exploit that(oh wait, they did so they could fight the borg... and proceeded to not use it elsewhere because plot).
Err... no they're not. You're completely misunderstanding how Star Trek shields work and what was done involving the Borg.

Star Trek shields cover all spectrum frequencies usually except for ONE, because if they don't allow that one through, they cannot fire weapons without taking shields down. This is a logical extension of the technology and how it works. Basically, if they did not allow that one frequency through, they would block their own weapons fire. No ship uses the same bypass frequency, and there's no way to be able to detect what the bypass frequency is via scans, the one time it was done against a Federation Starship didn't involve manipulating the frequencies, it involved old fashioned spycraft (ST: Generations).

The Borg, on the other hand, use very different shield technology than the Federation does, they tank a few hits and analyze the weapon fired at them so they can then adapt to have perfect defense against those weapons at those specific frequencies and then proceed to absolutely no sell those weapons. This is why people rotation weapon and shield frequencies when fighting the Borg, they are looking to prevent that perfect defense. Rotating weapon and shield frequencies against other opponents in Star Trek doesn't accomplish anything, as those enemies cannot pull off the same stunt the Borg do.

SW shields, on the other hand, do not suffer that weakness and, based on how much damage turbolasers do to other ships, should be able to resist most of what an ST ship throws at it.
Do you have any sources explaining how SW shields work, or are they like most tech in Star Wars and just another form of space magic that's handwaved away and not explained?

Because that's a major problem when comparing the two. Star Trek shields, at least as the Federation uses, are a combination of gravametric and electromagnetic field that blocks incoming energy and mass using those forces. As such, we cannot say that SW shields would actually block everything ST uses, especially the more exotic particle weapons like Phasers, which are a nadion particle beam weapon... how the hell do nadions even interact with SW tech? One can argue, albeit unfairly, that SW shields should just be bypassed by Trek Phasers since they were not made taking nadions into account... On the flip side, turbolasers are just a form of plasma cannon, a very common type of weapon in Star Trek and thus we do know that, at minimum, Trek shields CAN protect them against that... how well will depend entirely on the calcs you use.

Maneuverability? (probably goes to the Sovereign, but maybe not. Fed ships tend turn like pigs...and ISDs)
Star Trek ships are stupidly maneuverable for the mass and size. Fed ships really don't turn like pigs when you actually sit down and look at their size and speed profiles, folks are just used to thinking of "space fighters" when they think of high maneuverability. Consider exactly how Trek ships move when engaged in space battles, they are much more akin to the movement of planes than they are to slow moving ships. Some of the close calls we see Star Destroyers get into in the movies wouldn't even be a concern for Trek ships, as both would still have considerable maneuvering safety. In fact, one thing Trek ships are vey good at is the very close space knife fight range a range that we only see starfighters operating in normally in Star Wars, Trek capital ships commonly fight each other at. Now, granted, this is in part due to the medium. Trek fights were made to look good on 4:3 TV screens, which meant the ships were stupidly close together when you actually consider the vastness of space, but in setting there's actually good reasons for fighting at ultra-close ranges (Cloaking devices), and we do know they can engage at much longer ranges too.

All that said in defense of Trek, I'm not sure a Sovereign class can beat an ISD if we're talking about a straight pound each other into the dirt fight. Even if my assumptions on tech is true (single Turbolasers being generally weaker than a single phaser, Proton Torpedoes being weaker than Quantum and Photon Torpedoes, and Trek Shields being superior to SW Shields but SW shields working against Phasers and Quantum Torpedoes), the fact that the ISD is a pure warship and 4x the size of the Sovereign really pushes the edge to the ISD. Even with its superior sublight maneuverability, the sheer weight of fire from an ISD is threatening to a Sovereign class. The parasite fighters are of questionable threat... the fighter scale turbolasers I do not think could put a real dent in the Trek shields, and Trek phasers have been shown to have pinpoint accuracy AND wide beam settings, which means that a flight of TIEs (which are UNSHIELDED) are just going to be an exercise in fire control for the Sovereign. Their carried Proton Torpedoes could be dangerous for TIE Bombers, but that's assuming they get close enough to actually launch them.

No, in a brute force contest the Sovereign I think loses. The ISD would know it had been in a fight though, and would probably consider the Sovereign class as punching about it's weight class if put up against a ship of similar size from Star Wars.

However, when we add in the rest of the Sovereign's capabilities, especially it's superior sensor technology, I think the Sovereign might actually be able to pull off a Trek Tech victory, especially when paired with some exotic maneuvers that Trek ships can pull off that the ISD cannot. For instance, we know that Trek can use Warp drive tactically, something you cannot do with hyperspace in Star Wars. Yes, Hyperspace drives in Star Wars are faster on a galactic scale, but a Sovereign if playing for blood and with a crew knowing the capabilities of their enemy could play merry hell with an ISD. For instance, sit outside of its effective weapon range, warp in, unload a full barrage, and then warp back out of weapon range all in the span of a few minutes. The ISD has no counter to that kind of trick. The level of precision targeting the Sovereign can do is also not something commonly seen in Star Wars capital ships, and when you combine that precision targeting with the superior sensors that the Sovereign has (let's not joke, if there is ONE thing Trek has over Wars is that their sensors are WAY WAY better) it may mean that the Sovereign, if given enough time, can find every chink in the ISD's armor and work to exploit it from the old fashioned "beam a torpedo inside to hitting critical power junctures, to destroying the primary shield balls on top of the ISD's bridge. That would be how a Sovereign pulls off a win, by a combination of outside context tactics and Tech Teching their way through it.

But in a brute force contest? The ISD takes it 9/10... and that 1 is more likely a loss due to sheer incompetence on the ISD commander's part rather than anything the Sovereign does.

In a situation where the Sovereign is allowed to leverage the adaptability of a Starfleet crew and tech? Probably closer to a 5/10. Those tricks can get your far, but only so far, and may also blow up in your face.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
Of course none of this matters if you're writing a story for that universe, for obvious reasons the author can do what they like. I personally like having each faction keeping their home strengths and weaknesses(in this case, ST has some insane sensors and has replicators so any tech disadvantage would be short lived). So if I were to write a story where the feddies and the empire interacted, I would have them outmatched in a sluggout but slowly overcome their weaknesses thanks to working with the rebel alliance and through reverse engineering.

Dunno if the (Berman era) Federation could be bothered to help out the rebels. The Feddies sold out their own people to the Cardassians, and wound up helping the Cardassians suppress those colonists and freedom fighters. IIRC the Klingon Empire also engaged in slavery in TNG, and yet the Feddies were still trying to broker good relations with them. And ofcourse, there was the Federation's passivity to the Dominion. Starfleet didn't mobilize until after tens of thousands of Dominion ships had been going through the portal and massing in Cardassia for several months. If anything, the Feddies are more likely to try to forge trade agreements with the Empire. Those hyperdrives that allow a ship to cross the galaxy in a few days would be invaluable to the Federation.
 

Vyor

My influence grows!
as those enemies cannot pull off the same stunt the Borg do.

Why not? Surely it would be rather easy to see what frequency their radios are at and just shove a microwave beam down their throats?

If one can verify that their own weapons are running at a certain frequency, others should be able to as well. The only reason they don't do this is because PLOT and pseudoscience bullshit that is just as much space magic as the force and Q are.

Do you have any sources explaining how SW shields work, or are they like most tech in Star Wars and just another form of space magic that's handwaved away and not explained?

Because that's a major problem when comparing the two. Star Trek shields, at least as the Federation uses, are a combination of gravametric and electromagnetic field that blocks incoming energy and mass using those forces. As such, we cannot say that SW shields would actually block everything ST uses, especially the more exotic particle weapons like Phasers, which are a nadion particle beam weapon... how the hell do nadions even interact with SW tech? One can argue, albeit unfairly, that SW shields should just be bypassed by Trek Phasers since they were not made taking nadions into account... On the flip side, turbolasers are just a form of plasma cannon, a very common type of weapon in Star Trek and thus we do know that, at minimum, Trek shields CAN protect them against that... how well will depend entirely on the calcs you use.

So they use gravimetric shields alone for fights then, got it. AKA: space magic. Nadions themselves are also space magic, since they don't exist. Saying that Star Trek tries to explain how their tech works is like trying to claim that 40k vortex grenades and psykers are "explained" because we know what the Warp is.

Actually no, 40k is hilariously enough harder scifi than Star Trek. At least they properly explain 90% of their shit. Sure, a lot of it is "we use hell", but it's more than what star trek gives 90% of the time.

And as far as we can tell, SW shields block everything above a certain energy level. And yes, this does include kinetic energy weapons unlike what a lot of people would claim(See: the explicit mention that shields are down before the A-wing hits, the sparks across the ISDs as asteroids hit them, them stopping missiles, etc).


Star trek, like every other pop scifi universe, runs on plotonium and plotonium alone. That doesn't make it bad, but it certainly is a far cry from actual hard sci fi. For hard scifi you get one change from reality. Just one. For Xeelee, as an example, it's that time travel works. From there, we get everything else in the universe.

Star Trek has... a lot more than just 1 or 2. It's rather closer to 2 hundred changes from baseline reality. Their explanations might as well be a magic spell for how closely it tracks to the real world.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
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IIRC the Klingon Empire also engaged in slavery in TNG, and yet the Feddies were still trying to broker good relations with them.
I cannot recall any mention of the Klingon Empire keeping slaves in TNG era. It might arguably fit their culture, but I suspect this might be from non-canon sources.

Starfleet didn't mobilize until after tens of thousands of Dominion ships had been going through the portal and massing in Cardassia for several months.
Untrue, Starfleet was working to modernize and mobilize due to the Dominion threat long before they began moving ships into Cardassian space. That's why the Defiant was even deployed to DS9 to begin with.

Why not? Surely it would be rather easy to see what frequency their radios are at and just shove a microwave beam down their throats?
Firstly, comms in Trek don't use normal radio transmissions, they explicitly use subspace communications. There's very little directed EM radiation from Trek Starships as EM radiation is limited by lightspeed and pretty much all Trek ship emissions (comms and sensors) are explicitly FTL (thus subspace based). As such "frequency" isn't referring to EM frequency, it's referring to something to do with subspace (this is further reinforced by the scenes from Generations where the Klingons tune their torpedoes to the Enterprise's Shield frequency in order to get them to bypass the shields, photon torpedoes, which were what the Klingons were using, are explicitly propelled by a warp drive and have a warp bubble that was being tuned). As such, firstly, normal EM based weapons couldn't be tuned to pass through them and secondly it means that it's not that simple to get a read on what the enemy's weapon frequency is. Also, finally, remember, if you're tuning your weapons to bypass their shields, that means you ALSO have to tune your shields to allow that weapon to pass through... which means you're ALSO, functionally, taking your shields offline.

It's a high risk / high reward play IF you can get your enemy's shield frequency; however, it's not one that often worth the effort, especially if you're engaging multiple enemies or dealing with enemies who can better control the engagement than you can (which was frequently the case for the Federation, due to both the Klingons and Romulans having cloaking devices).

In short, other people don't pull a "Borg" with their stuff because unlike the Borg, they tend to care about loss of life and resources and have ship designs that cannot regenerate rapidly due to having a noncentralized design. Whereas the Borg don't particularly care and use their own weird designs that enable them to take advantage of things like this. Also, Borg pull two things, they bypass shields after a few attacks, but they ALSO somehow create a perfect defense to whatever weapons are fired at them. The first is understood how it is done, but that second is a capability never shown by anyone but the Borg, we know it has to do with weapon energy frequency; however, the exact mechanics of how the Borg reconfigure their shields to form that perfect defense is unknown.

So they use gravimetric shields alone for fights then, got it. AKA: space magic.
I mean... gravity manipulation tech is kinda ubiquitous in both Trek and Wars. Trek at least has gathered all its tech into a single family and worked out things from there. Shields, Navigational Deflectors, Structural Integrity Fields, Internal Dampeners, and Anti-gravity are all related technologies in Trek and work with the same baseline principles.

Nadions themselves are also space magic, since they don't exist.
Sure? They're an exotic particle created to explain the specific effects of phasers we see in the show, as normal particle weapons or lasers wouldn't have those effects.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
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To me, phasers are magic b/c they do all sorts of stuff that the plot needs them to do. They like them better than lasers for, apparently, lots of reasons I've never really understood.
Phaser have a specific set of abilities... saying they do what the plot needs them to do is... a bit of a stretch. Phaser are consistently shown to direct fire energy weapons that range in power from stun to disintegration. They tend to have multiple beam settings from beam to spread, and otherwise act quite reliably from episode to episode. The only times I can think of where they act outside of that specific scope is when an engineer specifically jerry rigs one to be a part of some other thing, and even then the phaser part usually makes sense as they're either using it for its beam emitter or its power source...
 

Vyor

My influence grows!
Also, finally, remember, if you're tuning your weapons to bypass their shields, that means you ALSO have to tune your shields to allow that weapon to pass through... which means you're ALSO, functionally, taking your shields offline.
Also, Borg pull two things, they bypass shields after a few attacks, but they ALSO somehow create a perfect defense to whatever weapons are fired at them. The first is understood how it is done, but that second is a capability never shown by anyone but the Borg, we know it has to do with weapon energy frequency; however, the exact mechanics of how the Borg reconfigure their shields to form that perfect defense is unknown.

Here's an easy and frankly obvious solution: you know when you're firing, the other guy doesn't. Sure, you might get unlucky and fire when they do... or the more likely scenario is that you fire when they aren't and then you just... shift your shield again?

Sure? They're an exotic particle created to explain the specific effects of phasers we see in the show, as normal particle weapons or lasers wouldn't have those effects.

Oh really? So electrons don't exist now? You know, that energized subatomic particle that has affects that can vary from a small shock to molecular disruption depending on energy levels and amount?

Space. Magic.

Phaser have a specific set of abilities... saying they do what the plot needs them to do is... a bit of a stretch. Phaser are consistently shown to direct fire energy weapons that range in power from stun to disintegration. They tend to have multiple beam settings from beam to spread, and otherwise act quite reliably from episode to episode. The only times I can think of where they act outside of that specific scope is when an engineer specifically jerry rigs one to be a part of some other thing, and even then the phaser part usually makes sense as they're either using it for its beam emitter or its power source...

They use a light source to create a phaser in one episode. Sometimes the beam gets refracted by lenses and other times it doesn't. Sometimes it bypasses shields and other times they don't. Sometimes they're strong enough to break down bulkheads and sometimes they aren't(often on the same fucking ship too). Sometimes they fire a wide pulse of energy to stun a bunch of people and other times they can't seem to do that because it's important that one one dude gets taken out while the other goons can jump the crew.

It has always run on pure plot. Don't make excuses for it.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
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Obozny
Denizens of the Sietch.

Would I be wrong in saying that, if the Defiant is what happens when Star Fleet tries its hand at a warship, then the Sovereign class is when the Feddies build a battleship.

USS_Enterprise_E_First_Contact.jpg


Seriously, this thing is a monster. As I understand it, it could slag an Imperial Star Destroyer in short order.

There's not as much information on the sovereign class as their is for Galaxy, Constitution, or Defiant, but based on what we do know saying it's what happens when the federation tries to build a battleship is incorrect.

The Sovereign class is by all appearances an upgrade to the Galaxy class, perhaps upgunned to a degree to account for the changes in the galactic environment since the Galaxy was designed, but by no means a dedicated warship. It is, like most starfleet ships, a multiple design with equipment and facilities to accommodate a wide range of missions. It's certainly a capable ship given it incorporates starfleet's latest weapons, but that does not make it a warship.

If starfleet did build a dedicated battleship, based on the example of the Defiant and of the federation's peers which do field dedicated warships, they'd build something smaller than a Sovereign, in the range of an Ambassador class, with more weapons and stronger shields and far fewer exploratory facilities. Perhaps a Galaxy class hull, but that seems unlikely as dedicated warships of such a scale are very rare, only the Dominion and Romulans have ships that big, and in the former case they're very rare.
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
Fun fact. The saucer phasers of a Constitution class offer it 360% of fire. Only the warp nacelles block line of sight from them. The port and starboard phasers can fire directly behind the ship.

If Star Fleet Battles is accurate, The Connie had 8 type 1 offensive phasers. 2 type 3 defensive phasers. A single drone launcher, 4 photon torpedo tubes and 4 to 6 administrative shuttles.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Actually, the saucer phaser arcs are dependent upon what fluff you're reading. Based on what I've read they actually are just Phaser Strips that are capable of covering between 90-120 degrees of arc.

And the show NEVER cared about drone launchers, at least from the Federation side (excepting the scientific recon drones).
 

Typhonis

Well-known member
Actually, the saucer phaser arcs are dependent upon what fluff you're reading. Based on what I've read they actually are just Phaser Strips that are capable of covering between 90-120 degrees of arc.

And the show NEVER cared about drone launchers, at least from the Federation side (excepting the scientific recon drones).

What phaser strips? The Constitution-class had three banks of two. With four more on the secondary hull.
01-04-10.jpg
 

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