Confederate history month

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder

This month is confederate history month and in an era that seems hellbent on erasing these American legends, patriots and warriors it’s a great time to continue to celebrate and honor that American legacy and heritage, especially with the destruction of their statues, the erasure of their names off bases, and the frankly pathetic attitude of trying to be a hard man and uphold the union as great and demonize the confederates by soy boys who wouldn’t have lasted a second in places like Shiloh or Gettysburg or Bullrun. And in the end, reflecting on the mutual respect and peace achieved by both Lee and Grant at Appomattox court house. It’s also a great time to remember the music which frankly still holds up to this day.

 

King Arts

Well-known member
Fuck confederate history month. The confederacy was fighting for slavery, and it's good they lost. There is no need to glorify them.
I’m from the north so I don’t honor the confederacy. But there isn’t anything wrong with a southerner honoring their ancestors. And while the south was completely in the wrong and it’s leaders were treasonous and might have deserved to hang its soldiers should be honored. All soldiers who fight for their nations deserve respect, now that they are dead. Whether they are British, American, union confederate, Imperial German, Nazi, Soviet, etc.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Fuck confederate history month. The confederacy was fighting for slavery, and it's good they lost. There is no need to glorify them.

Considering Lincoln was a racist piece of shit who used the Irish as cannon fodder. William Sherman was the first person to write about a final solution to a Jewish and African question and Grant was a butcher and they were all war criminals?

Don't pretend your American Civil War had good people on either side.

Lincoln destroyed the Republic to save it and he created the foundation for the sick shit FDR got up too and the confederacy was only slightly worse.

Fuck Lincoln, fuck Davis, fuck Grant. Lee was the only hero and everyone else is burning in hell.

Edit- For the record the Irish were also assholes, if you are gonna swarm a nation and compete with its native sons and take away their opportunities the least you can do is serve that country and help keep it's native sons from battle.

But that goes to my point. From an immigrants perspective everyone in the ACW except Lee were terrible, treasonous and hurt America.
 

Abhorsen

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Considering Lincoln was a racist piece of shit who used the Irish as cannon fodder. William Sherman was the first person to write about a final solution to a Jewish and African question and Grant was a butcher and they were all war criminals?
Here's the thing about historical figures I like honoring: even if they did do bad, they also did a lot of good. I don't need to honor just perfect people. Cause risk. Good they did mostly outshines the horrors. Also, Grant's depiction as a butcher is overblown. He just knew that his winning advantage vs. Lee was attrition, and fought to secure victory.

As for Lincoln being the foundation for what would come with FDR, he didn't have much of a choice, and I'd blame others more, as well as railroads, cars, and radio getting rid of borders.

Also, Lee was a sack of shit too who was brutal to his slaves.

But more, I'm not talking about people here, but sides. And in this rare case, there was a moral and immoral side. And glorifying that side is wrong.

All soldiers who fight for their nations deserve respect, now that they are dead. Whether they are British, American, union confederate, Imperial German, Nazi, Soviet, etc.
This I mostly agree with, with the exception of soldiers who personally did war crimes (so excluding most of the German soldiers and many Soviet ones who did mass rape, and some other ones in various wars on various sides.).

So I'm quite fine with, and even support, the confederate memorial day. My problem is confederate history month, which is very different and mixed up in Lost Causerism.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
But more, I'm not talking about people here, but sides. And in this rare case, there was a moral and immoral side. And glorifying that side is wrong.
You’re right. The union destroying the independence of states that has knock on effects lasting to this day is terrible to glorify.



also if you are going to have history months confederate is more deserving than any other. Especially since it’s done in states that were confederates. Frankly, if you take more issue with Lost Cause which seeks to build up southern pride and identity rather than the massive force arrayed against it to destroy that and have you embrace white guilt your priorities are all out of whack. Both sides of the civil war were better Americans and better people than modern America.
 
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Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
A couple interesting facts about the Confederate military during the Civil War! Facts from Forgotten Weapons and Drachinifel.

dKuvAJF.jpg

  • When the ACW began, the Confederacy still had a lot of money from its pre-war cotton trade. A Confederate Commander who was in the UK enlisted the aid of a cotton company the Confederacy had worked with, who then contracted private British shipyards to produce ships for the Confederacy. The UK was politically neutral, but business is business. The shipyards sold to anyone who had the cash, even to both sides of a conflict. Since Britain was neutral in the Civil War, it was technically illegal to build warships for either side. However, the shipyards found a loophole: they could build the warship and sell it to the Confederates so long as it didn't have the actual cannons. If a ship doesn't have cannons, shot, and gunpowder, it is technically not a warship. The "ship" could then be sailed out into international waters, and claimed by the Confederacy. Another ship loaded up with cannons, shot, and gunpowder could "coincidentally" leave port around the same time and travel suspiciously in the same direction, and hand off the weapons to the client. The client could then move the weapons onto their new ship, and volia, you have a warship. There was opposition to the Confederacy in the UK, and since the shipyards didn't want to draw attention to themselves, they just commissioned the confederate ship as "hull #290". This made sense because British shipyards often built hulls, and then hoped that someone would come later and buy it. It'd be difficult for an outsider to tell what a ship was for based off of public info. This is how the CSA acquired the CSS Alabama, which proceeded to capture 60 Union ships. However, news of the Alabama's exploits reached Britain, and there was an uproar from the Union sympathizers that caused the British government to clamp down on the shipyards, meaning that the Confederacy wouldn't get anymore ships from Britain. Perhaps if the Alabama had been more low key, more Confederate ships would have been produced.

YhKuXKL.jpg

  • When the ACW began, the Confederacy needed weapons to arm their soldiers. For obvious reasons, they couldn't just buy weapons from suppliers located in the Union anymore, and with a blockade going on, most firearms bought from Britain didn't reach the Confederacy. Guns are the time were usually made of steel, but steel was rare and very expensive in the Confederacy. So, when making guns, the Confederates often used twisted bar iron as a substitute. You take a bar/ingot of iron, and by twisting it, you can give it a little more strength. The twist marks are visible. It is good, but not AS good as steel, and if the revolver/barrel isn't made right... it can explode. And even then, the Confederate gun makers needed to conserve as much iron as possible, so they often dropped parts from the gun's design. For example, the Confederate Dance Revolver doesn't have a gun shield because there was just barely enough iron in an ingot to make the gun. Without a gun shield, powder residue will get on your hand after each time you fire. Standard gun designs back then also had a lot of brass parts, but, again, brass was rare, so Confederate designs hardly used brass.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
I'd like to remember George W. Johnson, the first Confederate Governor of Kentucky and an advocate of secession as a method of avoiding the threat of Civil War (lol see how that worked out) and actually disagreed with the Secession after Lincoln became president because the Republicans weren't in control of Congress or the Supreme Court at the time and actually advocated for Kentucky's neutrality in the coming conflict.

That obviously failed as well so he fled the State as Unionists took over the place and he feared arrest. He travelled all the way to Virginia to enter the South, and then made his way through to Tennessee to offer his services to the Confederacy. There his fellow Kentuckians anointed him as the first Confederate Governor of Kentucky (which was a tough thing to be Governor of since most of it was already in Unionist hands right at the beginning of the war). During his tenure as Governor, he failed to meet recruiting goals or levying taxes in the state for the conflict, but unike many historical assholes and incompetents, despite the fact George W. Johnson was highly educated and a wealthy slave owning plantation owner, he avoided offering his services like he was some sort of military expert. During this War (and honestly other wars) lots of wannabes would invest themselves into military operations with disastrous results.

With Kentucky largely overrun by the Unionists, the Governor of Kentucky offered his services to Confederate General Albert Sidney Johnston as a volunteer aide and being highly educated and politically connected, it was a role he excelled in. During the Battle of Shiloh General Johnston was killed, and Governor Johnson's own horse was killed, leaving him on the battlefield after the first bloody day without a proper job.

So the Governor offered himself up as a Private and joined the battle with his fellow Kentuckians of that states Fourth Infantry Regiment. This is despite being like fifty years old, having a bum arm and being hard of hearing. He was seriously injured in the second day of the battle in the thigh and abdomen and was found on the field the next morning by a Union General (who was a fellow Democrat and Freemason) who recognized him. Despite the efforts of Union physicians though, the wounds proved mortal and he died.

This Governor IMHO had far more balls and guts and integrity then probably every currently serving Congressman and Federal Politician combined. He wasn't even a diehard Secessionist or Confederate before or in the opening stages of the conflict but he still served his State in the best capacity he could and ultimately gave his life for it when he could've just fucked off and instead mismanage an Officers career or be some freeloading politically connected busybody.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
You’re right. The union destroying the independence of states that has knock on effects lasting to this day is terrible to glorify.
The line was crossed with Reconstruction forcing a good number of unrelated matters and attempting to force cultural submission, as the federal government was established by the original writing and interpretation of the Constitution to hold sole authority over foreign affairs, something even the Articles of Confederation held to, and secession very clearly broke such a thing (alongside freedom of movement and trade)

The Civil War itself was ultimately over an unanswered question because there was nothing about secession in any part of US law, and while the hard denial of secession has its issues, the only real alternative at the time, given the impetus for secession, was to undergo rapid disintegration as rather petty concerns would be just cause to secede.

Had the South seceded in response to the outlawing of slavery or some other action taken by the federal government, rather than do so pre-emptively in response to an election, then the question could have been answered with a more measured response of needing some metric of friction between state and federal interests.

Personally, I wish that the West Virginia precedent were more widely applied, since there's just so damn much bullshit arising from metropolitan areas surrounded by fully rural tracks of land. If it isn't gun control that does it, it'll probably be something to do with paternal rights (abortion, custody, etc) or hate crimes.
 

Abhorsen

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Osaul
You’re right. The union destroying the independence of states that has knock on effects lasting to this day is terrible to glorify.
This is just wrong. The Confederate revolted because of slavery. We know this because their secession documents cite slavery as the reason. And though the independence of states is a nice thing, independence of people is paramount. So fighting to preserve slavery is inherently an immoral act.

also if you are going to have history months confederate is more deserving than any other. Especially since it’s done in states that were confederates. Frankly, if you take more issue with Lost Cause which seeks to build up southern pride and identity rather than the massive force arrayed against it to destroy that and have you embrace white guilt your priorities are all out of whack. Both sides of the civil war were better Americans and better people than modern America.
The Lost Cause is lies trying to hide evil. It's ultimately hollow and if used as a foundation, only unsteady things can be built on it. I have no guilt about this, and neither should southerners, as none of us were slave owners. But by embracing attachments to that time, you embrace a connection to evil, which is then easily extended to continuing attacks on the South.

Instead, the Southern way of life doesn't need the Lost Cause at all. Just being Christian and being nice people works fine.
 
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FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
This is just wrong. The Confederate revolted because of slavery. We know this because their secession documents cite slavery as the reason. And though the independence of states is a nice thing, independence of people is paramount. So fighting to preserve slavery is inherently an immoral act.
Yes and it was over the federal government coming to end it, not allowing states to decide for themselves lol. And no it isn’t because slavery isn’t inherently immoral.
The Lost Cause is lies trying to exclude evil. It's ultimately hollow and if used as a foundation, only unsteady things can be built on it. I have no guilt about this, and neither should southerners, as none of us were slave owners. But by embracing attachments to that time, you embrace a connection to evil, which is then easily extended to continuing attacks on the South.

Instead, the Southern way of life doesn't need the Lost Cause at all. Just being Christian
Having pride in having rebelled and that identity is pretty good too. Let’s not destroy it and let’s also maintain southern heritage and the men of the confederacy. It’s an idiotic idea to try and destroy and dismantle confederate pride when American pride as a whole is under massive attack. It’s like arguing to score goals on yourself while your team is losing.
 

Abhorsen

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Yes and it was over the federal government coming to end it, not allowing states to decide for themselves lol. And no it isn’t because slavery isn’t inherently immoral.
No, actually. First, the Federal government had not moved to ban slavery at the time, as Lincoln hadn't even been inaugurated when Sumter was attacked. Second, Lincoln would have pushed for some anti-slave stuff, but certainly not been able to ban it. Third, everyone has a right to force another to stop slaving, so that's not even an excuse.

Having pride in having rebelled and that identity is pretty good too. Let’s not destroy it and let’s also maintain southern heritage and the men of the confederacy. It’s an idiotic idea to try and destroy and dismantle confederate pride when American pride as a whole is under massive attack. It’s like arguing to score goals on yourself while your team is losing.
No, it's like cutting off a cancer. Immediately painful, but it stops the body from coming under attack. Southern pride needs to be divorced from the evil that is the confederacy.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
No, actually. First, the Federal government had not moved to ban slavery at the time, as Lincoln hadn't even been inaugurated when Sumter was attacked. Second, Lincoln would have pushed for some anti-slave stuff, but certainly not been able to ban it. Third, everyone has a right to force another to stop slaving, so that's not even an excuse.
Westphalian sovereignty should be the way you view foreign countries. No, you shouldn’t go ahead and invade other countries over their domestic issues. And given that Lincoln undoubtedly did set the precedent of the constitution and the federal government ruling over states so...

No, it's like cutting off a cancer. Immediately painful, but it stops the body from coming under attack. Southern pride needs to be divorced from the evil that is the confederacy.
That’s silly and dumb. The confederacy is less evil than modern America by a country mile. And the cancer is what came after.

Like seriously. You have pride in the foundation of America which had it legal to execute you for sodomy, only allowed white immigration and had legal slavery, and that’s fine to have pride in, but we have to kill any and all pride in the confederacy because that’s just a purely evil nation? How does that make any sense at all?
 
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Abhorsen

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Westphalian sovereignty should be the way you view foreign countries. No, you shouldn’t go ahead and invade other countries over their domestic issues. And given that Lincoln undoubtedly did set the precedent of the constitution ruling over states so...
First, that wasn't a foreign country, so none of that Westphalian stuff applies. Second, you've given no reason why I should care about Westphalian sovereignty except you insisting I should.

But third, there is a clear point at which it becomes moral to invade, such as when Vietnam invaded the Khmer Rouge run Cambodia (one of the only good things communists ever did), or invading Nazi Germany if one knew about the Holocaust at the time, or the Spanish colonizing the Aztecs if they had done that to stop human sacrifice.

And fourth, there were parts of the constitution that had always applied to the states, so this is still wrong.

That’s silly and dumb. The confederacy is less evil than modern America by a country mile. And the cancer is what came after.
This is insane. There was government enforced mass rape in the confederacy. Government enforced slavery. Government enforced torture. 35% of the South was enslaved, and of the free 30% of families owned slaves. It was an evil place.
 
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Morphic Tide

Well-known member
And fourth, there were parts of the constitution that had always applied to the states, so this is still wrong.
There's some technicalities as, IIRC, the ruling before Reconstruction was that it was required to have similar clauses in the state constitution, rather than the federal constitution being directly binding to the states.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
Setting aside legalistic considerations about federal vs. state power, the institution of slavery in the South itself had been drifting in an increasingly dystopian direction (even for slavery) throughout the 19th century. To my understanding, by 1860 most slaveowners' view of it had evolved from 'it's a necessary evil that should be abolished at some point in the future' to 'actually it's a positive good for the slaves and they should be grateful for it', mirroring the hardening in pro-slavery sentiment across the South just as abolitionism was becoming more popular in the North. Lighter-skinned ('high yellow') to outright seemingly white slaves were already being bought and sold, per Harper's Weekly the Union freed several when they took New Orleans, and Southern thinkers of the late 1850s like James H. Hammond and George Fitzhugh were already calling the Northern lower class 'mudsills' (just as the slaves were the 'mudsill' on which their society & economy was built) & outright suggesting that perhaps poor Southern whites too should share in the 'benefits' of slavery.

Yes, that does sound completely insane and was hardly a mainstream opinion in 1859. But you could say the exact same thing about the idea of slavery-as-a-positive-good in 1800, which Thomas Jefferson (as a slaveholder who nevertheless was one of the subscribers to the 'slavery is a necessary evil' viewpoint, ended American participation in the overseas slave trade & backed the idea of gradual emancipation) would have found abhorrent, among others. Throw in the rising popularity of scientific racism and eugenics from the mid-19th century onward, as well as the aforementioned existence of obviously-white-skinned slaves, and is it really so inconceivable that slavocratic ideology (for that's what the defense of slavery had become by 1860, it wasn't just an economic argument but one about the defining cornerstones of Southern society and racial hierarchy) might trend in an 'expand the category of who's fit to be a slave' direction?

This isn't the Alternate History subforum so I'll avoid launching into a longwinded hypothetical (well, longer than this has already been). Suffice to say I think it's a good thing the Confederates lost in the end even if the Union weren't perfectly saintly themselves, better an expansion of federal power than the further entrenchment of the slavocratic ideology - and I certainly have little to no faith that the CS would have organically abolished slavery on its own had it managed to prevail in its mortal struggle over the Peculiar Institution (even if it 'only' maintains the status quo instead of jumping off the Fitzhughian deep end entirely), which doesn't seem any likelier to me than the USSR adopting anarcho-capitalism after winning the Russian Civil War.

Also it should also be noted that Southern aggression against the free states was a very real thing and much more concrete, not to mention typically much more violent, than anything coming from the Northern abolitionists toward the slave states in the lead-up to the civil war. The Fugitive Slave Act is the one that's most talked about, but how about Bleeding Kansas? I'm sure most if not all posters on this board have a dim view of Californians today who migrate to red states and bring their voting habits with them. Now imagine that, but the 'migrants' are basically bandits with Southern accents who don't even intend to live in the state they're moving to, just ride over the border every time there's an election to steal and crack the skulls of any abolitionist they can find while they're at it, and you'll have a good approximation of the 'Border Ruffians' from Missouri who made Kansas bleed. John Brown has a not-undeserved reputation as a radical and a murderer; but it should be noted that he didn't fire the first shots in Kansas, the slavers did, and he didn't start hacking pro-slavery settlers to bits until after the side of slavery had sacked Lawrence, KS and specifically targeted abolitionist papers for destruction.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
This is insane. There was government enforced mass rape in the confederacy. Government enforced slavery. Government enforced torture. 35% of the South was enslaved, and of the free 30% of families owned slaves. It was an evil place.

~50 million babies have been murdered with Federal backing, and often with federal funding. That's more than the total population of the Confederacy.

Slavery is evil.

So is murder.

While I don't agree with Fried's position on the whole, you have not effectively countered his argument about the relative evil of the Confederacy and the modern USA.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
This is insane. There was government enforced mass rape in the confederacy. Government enforced slavery. Government enforced torture. 35% of the South was enslaved, and of the free 30% of families owned slaves. It was an evil place.
We kill millions of babies every year, we’ve killed like sixty million since 1973. That alone makes us worse in my eyes, and that’s just one aspect of our evil.


But third, there is a clear point at which it becomes moral to invade, such as when Vietnam invaded the Khmer Rouge run Cambodia (one of the only good things communists ever did), or invading Nazi Germany if one knew about the Holocaust at the time, or the Spanish colonizing the Aztecs if they had done that to stop human sacrifice.
Vietnam created the Khmer Rouge and invaded them after when the Khmer Rouge didn’t end up a puppet state. Don’t give them any credit there. And why? Well one it’s the Christian and Western legacy that we have caused untold suffering in forgetting across the world intervening everywhere and anywhere for gay liberal ideals and two it’s Washington’s ideal for our conduct and I wish we held to it. You can go die for those countries if you wish. I’m not too inclined to and personally I think it’s hilarious you want to throw away patriots lives for people who don’t matter to the American government. That’s globalism and it’s gay. You’re going directly against one of the major things that made Trump so great lol. How are you an ANCap with NeoCon ideals? I was hoping you’d, as a libertarian, at least hold to not wanting to bleed and cripple thousands of young American men to enforce a neoliberal hegemonic empire and force “democracy” on anyone and everyone that isn’t American.

Furthermore, you still haven’t shown how you can love Americas founding when it had slavery and the death penalty for gays and all the rest, but not the confederacy.
 
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Abhorsen

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~50 million babies have been murdered with Federal backing, and often with federal funding. That's more than the total population of the Confederacy.

Slavery is evil.

So is murder.

While I don't agree with Fried's position on the whole, you have not effectively countered his argument about the relative evil of the Confederacy and the modern USA.
The percentage of the population involved with abortion is much, much, smaller than those that directly controlled slaves, or were slaves. This study had abortions at about 23% of women. But that means only about 11.5% of people have had this, with people who aid in the abortion adding at most a percentage point (which is probably a vast overestimation).

In comparison, slaves were owned by a much larger percentage of families (25-30%), and that doesn't even count those who rented slaves or worked as overseers. And if we talk number of people affected, that's also lower as well.

We kill millions of babies every year, we’ve killed like sixty million since 1973. That alone makes us worse in my eyes, and that’s just one aspect of our evil.
Sure, let's argue this. Being born then dying in slavery is at least as bad as being aborted. By percentage of the south's population, slaves typically were about a third of the population, that includes generations of slaves. Meanwhile, 60M abortions over so many years gets to about 18% of current population. But there were 35% of the current population of the Confederacy in 1860 alone that would have lived and died a slave had it not been for the civil war. So the South would be at least doubly bad by this margin. Then we add in the mass rape and mass torture and that 25-30% of the free population of the Confederacy was involved in this, and no, the confederacy was one of the most evil 'countries' known to man.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Sure, let's argue this. Being born then dying in slavery is at least as bad as being aborted.
it’s not at all. Slavery isn’t even morally wrong. It’s just wrong to mistreat a slave and a slave to disobey a master. Like, abortion is worse than normal murder because you are killing the most innocent human being possible for your own selfish purposes that you created. Slavery, and living as a slave, is vastly better than being murdered, and isn’t inherently immoral. There isn’t a morally equivalency there.
 

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