Libertarianism as the Handmaiden to Socialism

I'm sorry, but libertarianism is not the "handmaiden to socialism" - libertarians hate collectivists in general, so communists are their natural enemy along with fascists, and they would take up arms and fight against them. Why else do you think HS under Obama tried to connect the Gadsden flag to white supremacy and right-wing terrorism? The only reason conservatives connect the two of us is because libertarians believe in personal liberties which the more conservative types find immoral, like marriage equality, just as an example. It also strikes me as intellectually dishonest to blame libertarians for anything considering that we've never been in power to actually do anything, because the majority of people in this country will only ever vote for the two main parties. So the real handmaidens to socialism thus far have been Republicans like Mitt Romney and Mitch McConnell.

In any case, there is no justification for Jim Crow laws or slavery.

I mean, taking your line of logic to its conclusion, that all affairs must be locally organised and no higher authority has the inherent right to intervene in them for any reason, leads to sheer anarchism.

Which then come down to what i've been trying to ferit out, why?

What moral principle is a libertarian is asserting that supports removal of Jim Crow, but does not support the removal of national boarders?

The libertarians that ive interacted with, and have made arguments in this thread, seem to endorse moral principles with a logical end of global leftism.

I don't like that outcome, but a good argument isnt really being presented.

In what way does libertarianism lead to globalism? I know there are some open border types that claim to be libertarian, too, but I'm sure not one of them, and the others I've interacted with are all in favor of strong borders as well. The idea that libertarians, who practically jack off to the idea of the founding fathers flipping the bird to the King of England and telling most of the rest of the world to fuck off, too, would support globalism is just absurd to me. If anything libertarians tend to be isolationists. Hell, I thought I was an exception in that I actually would keep most of our overseas bases because I actually like our military having its current ability to project itself around the world.

JagerIV said:

Which then come down to what i've been trying to ferit out, why?

What moral principle is a libertarian is asserting that supports removal of Jim Crow, but does not support the removal of national boarders?

The libertarians that ive interacted with, and have made arguments in this thread, seem to endorse moral principles with a logical end of global leftism.

I don't like that outcome, but a good argument isnt really being presented.

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The problem here is that you think globalism necessarily leads to leftism. The globalism a libertarian wants is a particular type of globalism that is very anti left, and would basically have the globe become more like America than anything else. In contrast, globalism that leftists want is an excuse to get rid of American values like liberty and property rights by imposing foreign standards on the US (notably through the UN). In contrast, libertarians want open borders so other freedom loving people can come to the US and be free with us, and they limit this by what is practical (we don't want a bunch of freedom hating people from CHina moving in just to vote the actual CCP into power, for example).

If you are talking about lower case globalism, as in just free markets, not open borders, then yes, that's libertarian as well, with exceptions for trading with objectively evil states, like China or NK, under the (correct) belief that trade restrictions lead to economic stagnation. Socialists hate this idea, and they got a big win with Trump supporting them.

I would love to have other freedom-loving people come to the US, but I would want to vet them first to make sure they're actually freedom-loving. I would also participate in a certain amount of protectionism to ensure industries to not move overseas and put so many of my fellow Americans out of a job.

Abhorsen said:

The problem here is that you think globalism necessarily leads to leftism. The globalism a libertarian wants is a particular type of globalism that is very anti left, and would basically have the globe become more like America than anything else. In contrast, globalism that leftists want is an excuse to get rid of American values like liberty and property rights by imposing foreign standards on the US (notably through the UN). In contrast, libertarians want open borders so other freedom loving people can come to the US and be free with us, and they limit this by what is practical (we don't want a bunch of freedom hating people from CHina moving in just to vote the actual CCP into power, for example).

If you are talking about lower case globalism, as in just free markets, not open borders, then yes, that's libertarian as well, with exceptions for trading with objectively evil states, like China or NK, under the (correct) belief that trade restrictions lead to economic stagnation. Socialists hate this idea, and they got a big win with Trump supporting them.

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Globalism always leads to leftism, because leftism is more than just big government, control and idealism. Leftism also means removal of tradition, removal of cultural, political, ethnic etc. peculiarities. That is why I cannot in good conscience classify neoliberalism and extreme libertarianism as a right-wing ideologies, unless they are of a traditionalist-ethnonationalist variety.

Just gonna drop this here, in case people think Libertarianism cannot cross cultural boundaries.

Aldarion said:

Globalism always leads to leftism, because leftism is more than just big government, control and idealism. Leftism also means removal of tradition, removal of cultural, political, ethnic etc. peculiarities. That is why I cannot in good conscience classify neoliberalism and extreme libertarianism as a right-wing ideologies, unless they are of a traditionalist-ethnonationalist variety.

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Libertarianism isn't trying to be left or right wing. It definitely doesn't inherently respect tradition, though it also doesn't disrespect it. It just says don't make it law, and you can do (nearly) whatever tradition you want privately.

As for Globalism, it depends what type of 'globalism' you are talking about. Free trade was one of the things that helped defeat one of the most leftist countries in the world, the USSR, but also helped empower a future enemy (that should have been cut off in the mid 90s, right after they became the greatest evil). Free trade in general is a good thing that helps countries, and makes the US and capitalism powerful and economically dominant.

Globalism can mean a lot of things, some good and most bad, but for all practical purposes those advocating for globalism in the world today are invariably bad. Immigration is a tool to undermine national sovereignty, destroy the freedoms that libertarians espouse, and to generally oppress people and further a far left agenda. Free trade has more shades of gray, but in practice the profits of such policies go to mega corporations that want to oppress the masses and destroy western civilization. International institutions of power are essentially imperialistic and could use their power to enforce their agenda on the less powerful.

The best way to protect freedoms that libertarians advocate is to support nationalism and protect local autonomy of nations and peoples.

Here's the thing about 'globalism'...it's not going away, until we occupy more than one globe.

You want to get rid of globalism, help Musk get a self-sustaining colony going on Mars and anywhere else he can or wants to do it.

As long as humanity is tied to only a single ball of rock, globalist will continue to gain power, even if local autonomy can be retained in places strong enough economically and militarily to resist.

And when we are no longer tied to a single rock, then the borders on this rock will likely become less important than who controls what outside the gravity well.

All this has happened before and will happen again. Globalism will grow like a weed in a greenhouse, until it chokes out the life of our civilization and we return to the well of simple barbarism. Then new peoples will be forged from the blood and languages and scraps of remaining culture of the previous cycle, and we will try again, hopefully this time escaping the modernity trap, but probably just as doomed.

DocSolarisReich said:

All this has happened before and will happen again. Globalism will grow like a weed in a greenhouse, until it chokes out the life of our civilization and we return to the well of simple barbarism. Then new peoples will be forged from the blood and languages and scraps of remaining culture of the previous cycle, and we will try again, hopefully this time escaping the modernity trap, but probably just as doomed.

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Man, someone has watched too much nBSG.

The future of humanity is likely to look a lot like The Expanse or Firefly, unless we nuke ourselves back to the stone age.

ShieldWife said:

Globalism can mean a lot of things, some good and most bad, but for all practical purposes those advocating for globalism in the world today are invariably bad. Immigration is a tool to undermine national sovereignty, destroy the freedoms that libertarians espouse, and to generally oppress people and further a far left agenda. Free trade has more shades of gray, but in practice the profits of such policies go to mega corporations that want to oppress the masses and destroy western civilization. International institutions of power are essentially imperialistic and could use their power to enforce their agenda on the less powerful.

The best way to protect freedoms that libertarians advocate is to support nationalism and protect local autonomy of nations and peoples.

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The current intersectional madness is a pathogen that evolved specifically to exploit the unwillingness of classical liberals and libertarians to forcefully eject certain ideas from the spaces they control. Libertarianism atomises people, breaks down communities, shifts arguments to a strictly materialist base and discourages mass action and organising in the face of hostile ideas. Libertarians prevent the use of repressive tolerance, and so open cultures up to internal subversion and takeover. It has no defense against people with a high drive for power and a consequentialist mindset.

That is why much of the 'fandom' and tech community online has shifted in the space of 15 years from a broadly libertarian position to one of domination by narcissistic and sociopathic sadists who despise the communities they tyrannize. The proper defense against these people was to instantly eject them and subject them and thier ideas to intense scrutiny and ridicule. Instead they were allowed to stay, and thier natural drive for power and sociopathy put them into power.

The worst thing the conservatives ever did was align themselves with libertarians and objectivists.

Bacle said:

Man, someone has watched too much nBSG.

The future of humanity is likely to look a lot like The Expanse or Firefly, unless we nuke ourselves back to the stone age.

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Nope, IQ is dropping like a rock due to dysgenics and degeneration. Maybe the Han might make it off world, but I doubt it.

DocSolarisReich said:

Nope, IQ is dropping like a rock due to dysgenics and degeneration. Maybe the Han might make it off world, but I doubt it.

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The space program is white supremacy culture.

DocSolarisReich said:

Nope, IQ is dropping like a rock due to dysgenics and degeneration. Maybe the Han might make it off world, but I doubt it.

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...I don't even know how to debate this, because your ideas of what gets humanity off-planet ,and sustainably living off planet, are orthogonal to what actual matters if it is to be done.

It's like trying to debate what the smell of blue is. Sure, you take enough LSD and you can find out, but you burn a lot of brain cells in the process.

Bacle said:

...I don't even know how to debate this, because your ideas of what gets humanity off-planet ,and sustainably living off planet, are orthogonal to what actual matters if it is to be done.

It's like trying to debate what the smell of blue is. Sure, you take enough LSD and you can find out, but you burn a lot of brain cells in the process.

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We turned our back on the Heinleinian big men with screwdrivers rocket-progress future when we forced Von Braun and his team out from there places at NASA. New made our beds, now we must lie in them.

DocSolarisReich said:

We turned our back on the Heinleinian big men with screwdrivers rocket-progress future when we forced Von Braun and his team out from there places at NASA. New made our beds, now we must lie in them.

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Elon Musk disagrees, and he's pulling Buck Rogers type stuff NASA never dreamed of, because it's a bloated government entity.

Bacle said:

Elon Musk disagrees, and he's pulling Buck Rogers type stuff NASA never dreamed of, because it's a bloated government entity.

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Elon Musk is a side show. If he actually tried to escape the satanic world system of usury that has enslaved the world, he would either find himself dead and his work stolen, or more likely, coopted to build a Tower of Babel so that the elites can escape the piss earth they created.