ASOIAF/GOT The 'Realism' of the World of ASOIAF/GOT

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
You know, just thinking about how far the Dothraki are from the Mongols, maybe that was actually intentional by Martin. Maybe he really did read up on his history and realised the Mongols would conquer Planetos within a few fucking lifetimes and summarily had to dumb down the Dothraki to prevent that.

Because seriously, no Westerosi army could stand up to the Golden Horde. I think even the White Walkers would be in for a hell of a time.

Yeah... whenever you drop a major historical force into Planetos (11th century Byzantine Empire, 15th century Hungary, hell, even 15th century Holy Roman Empire), result appears to be "they conquer everything, everywhere".
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
"they conquer everything, everywhere".

In the case of the Mongols, this is even more accurate. Hilariously enough, as I understand it Westeros would flourish under Mongol rule. The Khans really didn't give a toss what you worshiped, wore, or spoke, so long as you paid your tribute.

Come to think of it, that's unlikely. Joffrey would probably murder the Mongol emissary and condemn the Seven Kingdoms to God's most terrible punishment. And I would pay to see this, because the Mongols are so fucking badass.

To think I once saw them as illiterate, horse fucking, nomad barbarians that got lucky! Jesus, I had some strange views of the steppe peoples once.
 

Firebat

Well-known member
But you did say that their being virgins is specifically what you felt disqualified them
No, I said being Vestal Virgins is was specifically disqualified them.
For starters, counseling wives was Juno's domain,
You are not selling me on the whole "priest to god of X was expert in X" idea by starting - "Actually, they didn't even do X". I mean sure, they didn't, because it would be ludicrous for a woman forbidden under penalty of death to have family or children to play family advisor, but that only adds to my point.
Practical expertise of deity's "specialty" was hardly the rule among priests. Servants to the goddess of hearth and family could perform their duties knowing jack squat about either.
Which was... closer to a month and a half-two months off, not three,
Look, I understand you are on the "erase the past to make the present seem better" bit of falsehood" roll, but this is getting ridiculous. 445-355=90 days (80 if you take modern calendar as baseline) are not going to become "a month and a half-two months off".
Not that "a month and a half-two months off" would be acceptable either.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
No, I said being Vestal Virgins is was specifically disqualified them.

[You are not selling me on the whole "priest to god of X was expert in X" idea by starting - "Actually, they didn't even do X". I mean sure, they didn't, because it would be ludicrous for a woman forbidden under penalty of death to have family or children to play family advisor, but that only adds to my point.
Practical expertise of deity's "specialty" was hardly the rule among priests. Servants to the goddess of hearth and family could perform their duties knowing jack squat about either.

Look, I understand you are on the "erase the past to make the present seem better" bit of falsehood" roll, but this is getting ridiculous. 445-355=90 days (80 if you take modern calendar as baseline) are not going to become "a month and a half-two months off".
Not that "a month and a half-two months off" would be acceptable either.
Yeah, I think I'm not going to bite anymore, this is turning into too much a derail. Start a new thread if you want to continue.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
So how much of GoT visuals could be the prop and costume people binge watching LOTR and mining it for ideas?

Either all or none. But if they were copying LOTR, they did a really shitty job. I mean, Gondorian armour actually looks like munitions plate. I am hard-pressed to find plate armour in GoT that looks like a functional plate armour.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
So how much of GoT visuals could be the prop and costume people binge watching LOTR and mining it for ideas?

A good chunk of it. I mean, just look at the Frey "army" with its leather hats for helmets. This being in a setting meant to be based off the Wars of the Roses, where the most bitch basic of soldiers would have worn gambeson or brigandine at the very least.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
A good chunk of it. I mean, just look at the Frey "army" with its leather hats for helmets. This being in a setting meant to be based off the Wars of the Roses, where the most bitch basic of soldiers would have worn gambeson or brigandine at the very least.

I don't recall anybody wearing leather hat for a helmet in LotR. Not even orcs. To me, that seems to be more like typical "Middle Ages were shitty" fare.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
I don't recall anybody wearing leather hat for a helmet in LotR. Not even orcs. To me, that seems to be more like typical "Middle Ages were shitty" fare.

Ah, yes. I misread the original question a little. If anything the armies of Lord of the Rings can come across as a little too well equipped sometimes. I mean, Gondor can afford full plate and chain mail for most of their army. Denethor's got to be loaded.

Come to think of it, Orcs were oddly well armoured for an army that used human waves. There was a mixture of crude plate and chain mail if I recall.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Ah, yes. I misread the original question a little. If anything the armies of Lord of the Rings can come across as a little too well equipped sometimes. I mean, Gondor can afford full plate and chain mail for most of their army. Denethor's got to be loaded.

Come to think of it, Orcs were oddly well armoured for an army that used human waves. There was a mixture of crude plate and chain mail if I recall.
Unsurprisingly, Tolkien researched the heck out of his worlds including his battles. His orcs really weren't prone to human wave tactics in the books and were disciplined and efficient fighting machines. Tolkien drew on his own war experience as well and he concentrates far more on things like morale, but we see a lot of orcs digging trenches, using psychological warfare tactics on Gondor, managing logistics, etc. The Peter Jackson movies take significant liberties with this. In fairness to Jackson, he didn't have infinity pages of text plus maps and timelines in the backs of books, and it's not easy to portray that kind of thing onscreen and make it an exciting movie.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Say, in the books, just how often do they actually make use of barely trained and barely equipped Smallfolk who become "Broken Men"?

Either the Lord who got Septon Meribald was a fucking asshole who enjoyed trying to see waves of hobos kill each other, or they were just that desperate for soldiers, the latter feels unlikely

And I'm of the belief that in the end, each Lord's limited by resources and training, you can have thousands of people in their territory, but only maybe 1/10 or 1/100 are good for a fight
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Ah, yes. I misread the original question a little. If anything the armies of Lord of the Rings can come across as a little too well equipped sometimes. I mean, Gondor can afford full plate and chain mail for most of their army. Denethor's got to be loaded.

Come to think of it, Orcs were oddly well armoured for an army that used human waves. There was a mixture of crude plate and chain mail if I recall.

As far as movies go, Gondorian plate armour is actually a variation on munitions plate. And rather well-done one, too. So while real reasons behind it lie in, basically, costume department (making molds for plastic plates is much easier than making thousands of plastic rings), it is not that bad. Especially since it successfully communicates the idea that Gondor is an ancient, advanced and rich society with manpower issues fighting against endless hordes - they cannot afford to throw away their men, but can afford to throw away money, so... plate armour for everyone, folks! At a discount! Overall, Gondorian armour is actually similar to just about everything in Lord of the Rings movies: it does not fit the source material, but it does fit the idea behind the source material.

Also, Orcs didn't use human wave tactics, in either books or the movies. Yes, it is stated that their commanders (Nazgul) care little of what becomes of their slaves... but orcs were still a professional army, and they acted as such. The only person who used human wave tactics was Saruman, and that is because he's an idiot (and even he made an attempt at using, y'know, actual tactics. He just sucked at it).

Say, in the books, just how often do they actually make use of barely trained and barely equipped Smallfolk who become "Broken Men"?

Either the Lord who got Septon Meribald was a fucking asshole who enjoyed trying to see waves of hobos kill each other, or they were just that desperate for soldiers, the latter feels unlikely

And I'm of the belief that in the end, each Lord's limited by resources and training, you can have thousands of people in their territory, but only maybe 1/10 or 1/100 are good for a fight

Personally, I believe that the war was actually unpopular, so the lords sent only men they wanted to get rid of. And you never want to get rid of the professional soldiers. On the other hand, lords in Westeros are portrayed as assholes who don't give a fig about the smallfolk. So combine these two facts... they sent peasants to die while holding back actual troops for their own internal warfare.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Personally, I believe that the war was actually unpopular, so the lords sent only men they wanted to get rid of. And you never want to get rid of the professional soldiers. On the other hand, lords in Westeros are portrayed as assholes who don't give a fig about the smallfolk. So combine these two facts... they sent peasants to die while holding back actual troops for their own internal warfare.


Given how this Blackfyre Rebellion was an invasion rather than a chance to murder one another and take each other's lands, I can understand the lack of effort

Though, I don't think that Septon Meribald ended up fighting on opposite sides, unless the Blackfyres also forcibly conscripted lots of random Smallfolk
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
My classes on medieval (particularly medieval French) history in my last few years at university made watching GoT much harder, as if the show needed any more help with that at the time: this was around season 6. What struck me was how Westeros didn't just lack the institutions, limitations or fundamental worldview to feel authentically medieval as so many others have said in earlier pages, but how it also didn't seem to have anything resembling a medieval social contract that made sense.

The nobility seems to exist to dress nicely (until everyone started adopting the same wardrobe in the last few seasons, anyway) and feast on the tears of their smallfolk, as opposed to doing anything productive outside of rare individual cases like Margaery Tyrell. People like Gregor Clegane are allowed to run rampant over everyone but their bosses and to pointlessly terrorize their subjects when there's no war on. The rot is allowed to escalate all the way up to the top, with apparently nobody other than Tyrion even trying to rein in Joffrey's excesses, and somehow the only popular backlash his sadistic and tyrannical behavior brought on (at least on the show) was a single riot. (Tywin does put him in his place in like two scenes, but didn't make any lasting correction to Joffrey's behavior outside of said scenes)

Meanwhile in reality, medieval lords gave to charity - making oft-quite generous bequests to hospitals, leper colonies and such, donating food, or more rarely personally working to try to alleviate their suffering in the vein of Saint Elizabeth of Hungary - all the time. Genuinely murderously insane kings like Charles VI were marginalized in favor of a regent/regents or disposed of in favor of heirs that people around them could actually work with. And Gilles de Rais' crimes got him hanged & burned more than a decade before the Hundred Years' War ended, despite him being a prominent French commander who had partaken in several major victories and a personal companion of Joan of Arc.

I would go as far as to say that Martin's portrayal of the Westerosi nobility has more in common with how QAnon people see the modern elite than it does with how any medieval European aristocracy conducted itself: that's to say, they're an entirely parasitic class of cackling evildoers who contribute nothing to society, command absolute power over their subjects in blatantly corrupt and incompetent ways and who commit whatever evils they want, no matter how illogical and counterproductive, but somehow still manage to get by without facing any serious challenges from above or below - as opposed to the real social upper class of the Middle Ages, which was comprised of people who behaved like people and actually had quite a few social constraints, conventions, duties and expectations weighing them down.
Not to mention how Edmure letting the peasants shelter inside Riverrun is portrayed as a great aberration when half the point of castles was as shelters for peasantry in time of war.
Another excellent example. Under the social contract which bound real medieval societies, the role of the nobility - 'those who fight' - was not just to rule but to defend their subjects in times of conflict. The French nobility not doing this during the Hundred Years' War, or at best not doing it very well, sparked La Jacquerie which threatened to upend the social order and (in conjunction with the Parisian bourgeoisie) briefly locked the French royals out of their own capital.

It made sense as to why nobody rose up while the Targaryens had dragons, but afterwards? The insane contempt for peasant lives displayed by what feels like 99% of the Westerosi royalty and nobility, to the point where Edmure is considered practically a living saint (or an idiot by his uncle and nephew, both of whom are supposed to be great military commanders...) just for carrying out the most basic responsibilities expected of a noble lord, should have resulted in either their overthrow or massive concessions to appease the commons. Especially considering their society's been around for 10,000 years and the last two dynasties have spanned 300 years, a little more than half of which was spent without dragons around.
 

stephen the barbarian

Well-known member
part 4 of the essay i mentioned earlier is up
Collections: That Dothraki Horde, Part IV: Screamers and Howlers
it's savage

In that context, declaring that the Dothraki really do reflect the real world (I cannot stress that enough) cultures of the Plains Native Americans or Eurasian Steppe Nomads is not merely a lie, but it is an irresponsible lie that can do real harm to real people in the real world. And that irresponsible lie has been accepted by Martin’s fans; he has done a grave disservice to his own fans by lying to them in this way. And of course the worst of it is that the lie – backed by the vast apparatus that is HBO prestige television – will have more reach and more enduring influence than this or any number of historical ‘debunking’ essays. It will befuddle the valiant efforts of teachers in their classrooms (and yes, I frequently encounter students hindered by bad pop-pseudo-history they believe to be true; it is often devilishly hard to get students to leave those preconceptions behind), it will plague efforts to educate the public about these cultures of their histories. And it will probably, in the long run, hurt the real descendants of nomads.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
I would go as far as to say that Martin's portrayal of the Westerosi nobility has more in common with how QAnon people see the modern elite than it does with how any medieval European aristocracy conducted itself: that's to say, they're an entirely parasitic class of cackling evildoers who contribute nothing to society, command absolute power over their subjects in blatantly corrupt and incompetent ways and who commit whatever evils they want, no matter how illogical and counterproductive, but somehow still manage to get by without facing any serious challenges from above or below - as opposed to the real social upper class of the Middle Ages, which was comprised of people who behaved like people and actually had quite a few social constraints, conventions, duties and expectations weighing them down.

I mean, the image of societal elites as decadent, parasitic, useless and evil is way older than QAnon - that conspiracy theory's just invoking cultural ideas that already exist. If anything, I would put it as starting around the French revolution and then getting spread around a lot more by Marx et al.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
I mean, the image of societal elites as decadent, parasitic, useless and evil is way older than QAnon - that conspiracy theory's just invoking cultural ideas that already exist. If anything, I would put it as starting around the French revolution and then getting spread around a lot more by Marx et al.

Elites are a lot better than we give them credit for. Due to the fact they are human beings, they are as much capable of compassion and cruelty as the rest of us. Parasitic, useless and evil people do not overwhelmingly make up the officer class of pre-20th century warfare and lead from the front. They also don't proceed to fucking weep over their supposed "class inferiors" dying in droves.

Even today, as money obsessed as they are (even to their own long term detriment), I think we can err on the side of caution; most of them probably don't mean any harm.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Elites are a lot better than we give them credit for. Due to the fact they are human beings, they are as much capable of compassion and cruelty as the rest of us. Parasitic, useless and evil people do not overwhelmingly make up the officer class of pre-20th century warfare and lead from the front. They also don't proceed to fucking weep over their supposed "class inferiors" dying in droves.

Even today, as money obsessed as they are (even to their own long term detriment), I think we can err on the side of caution; most of them probably don't mean any harm.

Old christian elites - yes.New bankster elites - no.

They want masses which work for them and buy from them,and are so disorganised that would never fight.That is why they support leftist now,and supported commies before.To destroy nations and families,so everybody would be alone and unable to fight them.

So - yes,they want harm all of us,and turn us into egoists working and fucking their entire life till they get killed befcouse of old age.
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
So - yes,they want harm all of us,and turn us into egoists working and fucking their entire life till they get killed befcouse of old age.

Nah. They want to make money, damn the consequences. The major problem with our modern elites is that they are self made men without roots. They are multinationals who feel little connection to their homelands, not tied to them by ancient blood or have an illustrious heritage to live up to. Religion's power to encourage charity and moral virtue has faded significantly.
Spiritually they are...poor in a way. Thus, they simply don't care and seek to accumulate more wealth and power above all else, no matter how self destructive it proves in the long run.

In some respects, the poor bastards are the result of a broken culture instead of its cause. They have nothing in their lives but accumulation.
 

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