Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Someone called Burgess Owens won Utah for the GOP.
If they aren't a singular organization with one voice why are they acting like it? Independent? What are you talking about? Most of the mainstream media is confined to the ownership of a few people. They are owned by the oligarchs, they are not at all independent. So again your argument falls flat. And people in media all run in the same circles by and large, so your argument falls even more flat. So flat as to make Death Valley justice. And as we said these world leaders are playing politics, yet you ignore all we say. Do I need to post clips of these supposedly independent news outlets all having the same talking points? Because I can.
What rest of the world? You mean the millions of people who believe in fraud or the world leaders who backed Trump don't exist? That we are all imaginary. You know it sucks being non-existent, really sucks. I guess, I need to fade from the world now.
No, just some men who would have reason to fear that he might retaliate if they don't play ball. Is it not at all congruent to say that a man who was mean enough to engage in such dirty politics then would do so know? A man who threatened a country over investigating corrupt he was linked to, would threaten a country over something equally as petty?
Sorry, but polls in this day and age have a track record of being inaccurate. So thusly, I will take it with a grain of
Something being partisan does not make it incorrect. And just because it is one man versus the world as you say does not make him wrong. I seem to remember that this is said about a certain man from the Levant, how the entire world was against him, but he knew the truth and that though doomed he was he still persisted in the truth and ultimately prevailed.
Yes it does prove something. That they want to derail this so much that they will stoop to low tactics? And why would they then want to derail this so much? Does that not show fear? And what innocent man would fear the revelation of truth in a court so much? In fact it is not just something, it is plenty. And here is why I call you blind, you ignore the apparent, you ignore the logical conclusions that can be drawn.
I am talking about every time, I have seen people on the right talk to you. And bring up their issues on the right. Not about you getting into fights with the left as well, because you are a fence sitter.
And if you weren't blind, then why aren't you calling out the poor actions of those on your side in this very thread? You know supporting violence when political decision making doesn't go their way?
As far as the American media is concerned, like @Hlaalu Agent has mentioned, most media outlets are owned at the highest levels by a handful of the ultra-rich elite. Also, there's such a thing as "professional culture" and groupthink, outlets following the cue of other outlets and so on and so forth. It's overwhelmingly obvious that Trump-bashing, and right-bashing in general, has been deeply ingrained in journalist culture for years now. News companies are unlikely to hire new employees if they are not conforming to their own ideology, meaning that the problem gets worse over time. In all objective "tests", such as reporting on extremely similar events, except one with a pro-left slant and the other a pro-right slant, virtually all the big media outlets have put a left-wing spin on it. It's not a conspiracy and it honestly doesn't require a lot of plotting and scheming to make it happen, it's simply fact. There are ex-journalists that have talked in length about these kind of media agenda stuff and their personal experiences with them, Tim Pool among the most famous ones, but by far not the only one.
The final point is more of a pre-emptive response to criticism. I included a lot of links in the above two paragraphs: Newsweek, Axios, The Independent, NPR, CNN. I have been told before that I put far too much trust in the mainstream media. I think there would be an argument against me that says that all these media outlets are untrustworthy: they might not be part of a conspiracy in a formal sense, but they are part of what Neoreactionaries would call 'the Cathedral': a self-organising consensus of elite and media organisations that push progressive views. So none of the sources I cite can be trusted. Instead we should go to... who, precisely? OAN? Randoms on Twitter? If you go with this theory, even Fox News must be now somehow part of the Cathedral, of the progressive consensus pushing lies. (I recall in this topic itself a dispute about whether the Murdoch press were liberal, globalist, or pro- or anti-Trump.) In response to this, well, obviously I can't prove that every media source is trustworthy, so instead I would put a different question out there. If every professional media source, from the BBC to Fox News, is so clearly wrong and untrustworthy... then how do you know that any source is trustworthy? If everyone else in the world is being fooled by their media, how do you know that you're not being fooled, by OAN or Project Veritas or even just people on Twitter? If everyone is a liar, how do you know that your favoured sources aren't liars? To be clear, my position on this is not that all the mainstream media sources are unbiased. Of course they're biased: every source in the world has some bias, you have to take it into account, and indeed most media sources lean left. But there's a difference between acknowledging that bias and asserting that everyone must be lying. I am taking the media with a grain of salt, but if you believe there's an omnipresent media agenda to lie to you, how do you know that anything that's going on is true?
To put it another way, I think I have an idea of what it looks like when mainstream media are trying to push a line that is at variance with observed reality: the obvious example might be there were no riots mixed in with the Floyd protests. But in cases like that, you notice that even though it was trying to play them down, the media did in fact report on riots and violence. Basically, I think there are media narratives, sure, but there are limits: they try to put events in a certain light, but outright, massive-scale deception, on the kind of universal global level that would be required here, does not really happen.
My response would be basically, "Such scandals do occur, but the scandal or conspiracy alleged here is far, far larger than that".
This is not a case of left-leaning papers spinning the news uncharitably. For the fraud argument to be plausible, you don't just need the New York Times to be lying and malicious. You need Fox News to be lying and malicious. You need international media to be lying and malicious. You need obvious Trump allies to be lying and malicious! The international element is important: Benjamin Netanyahu and Recep Tayyip Erdogan, for instance, leaders who have every reason to prefer a Trump victory, have called to congratulate Biden on victory.
You don't just need the Washington Post or whatever to be wrong. You need practically the entire global media to be wrong. Is everyone wrong? Even countries that have every reason to want Trump to win?
For that matter, as noted, you have Republican officials, who themselves have every reason to want Trump to win, saying that there's no significant fraud. You've already seen discussion of Brad Raffensperger, for instance. There are Republican calls to respect the process.
So I think the case for fraud here needs more than just the normal level of left-wing bias from sources like the New York Times or MSNBC. It needs a huge amount of people from all across the global political landscape - including Republicans, including right-wing news channels, including foreign observers, including people with every reason to want Trump to win - to either be lying or deceived. I do not think that's plausible.
Oh, the media certainly hate Trump. That was never in question.
But that's not what the question is. The question is not, "Does the media hate Trump?" The question is, "Was there election fraud?"
This is the same media that did not hesitate to call the election for Trump in 2016. Today we are not just talking about left-wing or mainstream media: we're talking about Fox, we're talking about media outlets in every other country, we're talking about Republicans. Pastor Robert Jeffress grants that Biden won, and he is literally the guy behind this. You cite cutting away from a press conference: Fox did that as well, and Fox are pretty darn right-wing.
@Unhappy Anchovy I am going to lay this out clearly. I am not insulting you or accusing you, I honestly think you are being blind. And I may be getting mean about the thing, and being too forthright with it due to being frustrated, upset, on the edge and many things. And I will apologize for how I am voicing these opinions if I have gone too far in that.
Or just too unkind in general. It don't like mistreating people and I am sure you have talked to me enough to gather than any sort of unkind action towards you is my own temper or passions getting the better of me rather than any malice towards you.
A listserv isntl realy proof of anything.The media was in fact caught collaborating. Who says they aren't doing it again?
Sigh, this place is gonna be fun come 21th January. I'm trying to help you guys avoid a nasty shockno much you scream it won't make it true @random_boy232.
No, you're here to bully and harass, it's obvious you can't tell the difference so I'm gonna leave you on ignore now.Sigh, this place is gonna be fun come 21th January. I'm trying to help you guys avoid a nasty shock
Concerntroll is very concerned for us. Is worried that people seem to disbelieve the always truthful media and are instead using their eyes and brains to work things out for themselves. Would like people to stop because concerntroll only has our best interests in mind and would never have any ulterior motives, only concern.Sigh, this place is gonna be fun come 21th January. I'm trying to help you guys avoid a nasty shock
Let's take it as read that pretty much every media outlet, from Fox to the BBC to the People's Daily over in China has called the election for Biden.
One possibility is that there's some sort of conspiracy or shared malicious agenda whereby a small handful of owners are all pushing a shared line to give the election to the Democrats, stealing it from its rightful winner, Trump; and then other outlets are just copying those liars. Another possibility is that they're all simply reporting the truth, based on the available evidence.
Right? Okay, every major outlet calls it for Biden. But then, every major outlet called it for Trump in 2016. Every major outlet called it for Obama in 2012 and in 2008. There is nothing suspicious about every major media outlet identifying the same person as winning the election. That's the expected result of someone winning the election.
I mean non-Americans, yes, and as far as I can tell widespread belief in fraud is limited almost entirely to Republican voters in the US. As for world leaders who backed Trump, that would be Bolsonaro and... uh... maybe Putin? But note that even they have not alleged fraud. Bolsonaro supports Trump as an individual but has pointed said nothing on the election results, apparently taking a wait-and-see approach. The same seems true of Putin, who is maintaining silence.
As far as I'm aware those are the only two? Duterte's congratulated Biden. So have traditional US allies like Boris Johnson or Scott Morrison (both from right-wing parties). I suppose Obrador in Mexico hasn't, but bilateral US-Mexico relations are tricky enough as it is. At any rate, I don't think AMLO really qualifies as backing Trump.
n.I think you make it sound like we're only talking about one or two people, rather than, if I might emphasise this again, the entire world. The UK, France, Germany, Canada, Saudi Arabia, India, China, Japan, Indonesia, Australia, Argentina, you name it. That doesn't seem like a few men intimidated by Biden. I keep saying 'everyone' for a reaso
Look, I've been doing my best to include links and data in all my posts on this topic. It is rather frustrating to do this and for everything to be roundly ignored. Okay, maybe the polls are skewed. How so? Do you think that changes my conclusion any? The point that those statistics support is that it's pretty much only Trump voters who think there was fraud, and it's unsurprising that Trump voters would believe Trump.
Donald Trump is not Jesus.
Yes, partisan claims are not necessarily false claims. We would need to return to the discussion of evidence. As I've previously indicated, I do not think there is compelling evidence of fraud, and I think the overall case for widespread fraud is far less plausible than the case for, well, Biden just winning and Trump being a liar.
So, people trying to intimidate Trump's lawyers is... evidence that the case those lawyers are making is correct?
Remember that Trump motorcade trying to intimidate the Biden bus in Texas? Does that prove that the Trump campaign was afraid of the Biden campaign speaking the truth to America?
It's a high-stakes election, and political polarisation is at an all-time high. Aggressive idiots exist, and inappropriately try to intimidate the other side. This is tragic and to be condemned, but it's not proof of anything substantial.
I'm a centrist or a moderate. I thus often get into fights with both the right and the left. That means to the right I can look like a leftist, and to the left I can look like a rightist. To be honest I don't care very much how people label me. If your point is that I often argue with conservatives, though, then... um, okay? I agree? I often argue with conservatives. I often argue with all sorts of people. I like arguing.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove, if anything.
I'm on nobody's side but my own. At any rate, I am currently arguing with you.
I'm not denying that a lot of mainstream media outlets strongly dislike Trump, would prefer Biden winning, and are likely to put as negative slant a possible on Trump-related news. But that's a far cry away from a massive conspiracy to falsify the election.
If it helps, I'm not angry at you. I am rather disappointed that we're at this point - and I have, alas, been losing a lot of respect for some of my right-wing friends over the last two weeks - but I'm not feeling angry or spiteful. I'm just doing my best under the circumstances.
A listserv isntl realy proof of anything.
Sigh, this place is gonna be fun come 21th January. I'm trying to help you guys avoid a nasty shock
Wonder what your "eyes and ears" are gonna say on January 21th when Biden is inaugarrated and Trump is evicted.Concerntroll is very concerned for us. Is worried that people seem to disbelieve the always truthful media and are instead using their eyes and brains to work things out for themselves. Would like people to stop because concerntroll only has our best interests in mind and would never have any ulterior motives, only concern.
Wonder what your "eyes and ears" are gonna say on January 21th when Biden is inaugarrated and Trump is evicted.
Wonder if it'll be denial of your denial or else an attempt to pretend trump is still president.
Who the fuck would have an ulterior motive? None of you are in a position to do anything, apart from some of the staff, who are also some of the people not screaming about fraud. There are no psyops to somehow demoralize this one forum.Concerntroll is very concerned for us. Is worried that people seem to disbelieve the always truthful media and are instead using their eyes and brains to work things out for themselves. Would like people to stop because concerntroll only has our best interests in mind and would never have any ulterior motives, only concern.
Who the fuck would have an ulterior motive? None of you are in a position to do anything, apart from some of the staff, who are also some of the people not screaming about fraud. There are no psyops to somehow demoralize this one forum.
Have you done any investigation for your self? Looked to confirm any of the lists of dead against active voter rolls, taken even the most basic look at the raw election results, spent even a couple minutes looking over the confirmed claims of people having votes cast by their maiden names in different states? Or did you just decide that the guy you didn’t like lost and that’s good enough for you?Wonder what your "eyes and ears" are gonna say on January 21th when Biden is inaugarrated and Trump is evicted.
Wonder if it'll be denial of your denial or else an attempt to pretend trump is still president.
Who the fuck would have an ulterior motive? None of you are in a position to do anything, apart from some of the staff, who are also some of the people not screaming about fraud. There are no psyops to somehow demoralize this one forum.
Well instead of being very concerned for us, the person in question could just be trolling. What with the constant shit stirring and lack of even the most basic engagement. Pretty much every post in this thread is some variation of “lol you’ll be mad when inauguration comes.”.Who the fuck would have an ulterior motive? None of you are in a position to do anything, apart from some of the staff, who are also some of the people not screaming about fraud. There are no psyops to somehow demoralize this one forum.
Oh no. How surprising. Who could have predicted this outcome?
Which middle eastern ruler will she make a pithy quote on after freedoming them with bombs?