Women in Combat Discussion

Eh, I sort of believe that many iron and before age sort of would kinda “deserve” a sudden curbstomp by an army of robots who want to help them byt won’t put up with their difference in social values that are really old and approve of pedophilia marriage and raiding neighbors and acting like bandits

That’s sort or why on mant ”I give up before actually fighting” runs I have in Stellaris, I play as Rogue Servitors
 
Eh, I sort of believe that many iron and before age sort of would kinda “deserve” a sudden curbstomp by an army of robots who want to help them byt won’t put up with their difference in social values that are really old and approve of pedophilia marriage and raiding neighbors and acting like bandits
But then why single out Sparta? As if Sparta stands out from the other greek states?

Spartan marriages were also generally between peers in age, past puberty. It was believed this would produce healthier children, or something.
 
Didn’t know that, also I thought most if not all ancient civilizations were full of majority, old-enough-to-be-her father types and teenAgers(like 13 at youngest)
 
Didn’t know that, also I thought most if not all ancient civilizations were full of majority, old-enough-to-be-her father types and teenAgers(like 13 at youngest)
That varies place to place and time to time, and is highly exaggerated.

For a good long while in sparta they were pairing off late teenagers, whereas in Athens they were marrying pubescant girls to older men, a situation that both parties (supposedly) routinely found intolerable. There was also a good amount of older men fucking boys placed in their care as apprentices with broad acceptance., a practice that Sparta (supposedly) abolished or took no official part in.
 
I thought the older parties found it both tolerable and something to take joy out of and look at as completely normal?

Also, I thought Spartans were gay that way
 
I thought the older parties found it both tolerable and something to take joy out of and look at as completely normal?
I mean, I'm sure some did, but (again, this is supposition based on stuff thousands of years ago) there were apparently a lot of men just flat out ignoring their teenage wives and committing various kinds of adultery with adult women, or in some cases men.

You have to imagine, for a moment, men's instincts havent changed across the ages, but in the past men were being married to girls far too young. The idea of the husband not paying any attention to his wife is a rather old one, and may have it's roots there.


Also, I thought Spartans were gay that way
I'm sure some were, but there was no open acceptance of the homoerotic relationship between master and apprentice, and in fact writing survives talking about how it is shameful that others do so. So at the very least we know it wasn't prescribed or celebrated.
 
Actually I was referring to the Japanese Bushi caste in pre-Edo Japan. Onna-bugeisha were used to defend castles while their husbands marched onto the field of battle.
Rajasthan is another case. Like Japan, they also had the glorification of suicide thing, but mainly for the women.
 
Female soldiers have indeed proved invaluable in a number of insurgencies, especially where its necessary to check people through security points.

The British Army used female soldiers, initially WRAC MPs and later female member of the Ulster Defence Regiment, as searchers in Northern Ireland. The 'Greenfinches', as they were known, were the first women to be directly part of a British Army regiment, and not part of the Women's Royal Army Corps.
An amusing story related to their earlier service was that under army regulations women had to wear skirts. There was an exception for the 'Greenfinches' when they were travelling by helicopter. At least until they landed - it became a common sight to see women rushing for the nearest bushes so that they could change into skirts! :LOL:

I spoke to an ex-army friend of mine about his time in Iraq and Afghanistan a while back. He did mention that the then ban on women on the front-line had effectivley been ignored. There was no 'front-line' and women were going out on patrols, where they ended up in combat.

Away from the Soviet experience, as mentioned by FU, some Scandinavian countries have had women in combat roles for some time. IIRC female tankers were reported in the Danish Army back in the '80s.
 
There is a very long post that can go here, but some others have said it well-ish.

Keeping in mind this is the US experience; we started badly, one side wanted to force it to work, the other side didn't, or didn't care enough to put the effort into fixing it.

The current two standard system is an unmitigated disaster due to this background. The Army faced a choice; either set physical standards based on the requirement for each occupational specialty... or punt.

I always found that absurd. It simply makes rational sense to set a relatively low "general" fitness standard in basic training, then have individualized physical standards for each MOS/rating based on the specific needs for that role. When you can honestly say, "X, Y, Z are what you need to safely and efficiently perform this job", as opposed to "A, B, C have nothing to do with this job but we demand high 'general fitness' for it", you've got an objectively fair way of selecting people without setting arbitrary exclusions based on gender or any other demographic characteristic.
 
I always found that absurd. It simply makes rational sense to set a relatively low "general" fitness standard in basic training, then have individualized physical standards for each MOS/rating based on the specific needs for that role. When you can honestly say, "X, Y, Z are what you need to safely and efficiently perform this job", as opposed to "A, B, C have nothing to do with this job but we demand high 'general fitness' for it", you've got an objectively fair way of selecting people without setting arbitrary exclusions based on gender or any other demographic characteristic.
The problem here is that the battlefield has changed and now consists of a broad and rather fuzzily-defined area in which military operations might or might not take place. The old system wherein there was an isolated area that was posted as being "The Zone of Conflict" and the rest of region was the "Zone of Peace" has gone. This means there are no rear areas and any combat could take place anywhere. Now, assuming that we do have women in the armed forces (and demographic developments means that is inevitable) that means that efforts to keep women in the rear area or safety zones are futile. This is a powerful argument by the way for having women in the armed forces, whether as soldiers or civilians, properly trained for the environment. So, while I agree with your comment in principle, I don't think it is practical in the military environment we have today.

As an example, in the old days, medical personnel were pretty much sacrosanct. There was an amusing case in the Ardennes (1944) when the Germans captured an American medical unit - and told it to keep working on the wounded. A week or so later, they were paraded, lined up and paid by the German Army on Heer scales according to their ranks. They were later exchanged for German medical personnel and had to explain how they had come into possessions of pocket-fulls of German military script.

Today, medical personnel are in serious danger and the Red Cross is seen as a target
 
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As an example, in the old days, medical personnel were pretty much sacrosanct. There was an amusing case in the Ardennes (1944) when the Germans captured an American medical unit - and told it to keep working on the wounded. A week or so later, they were paraded, lined up and paid by the German Army on Heer scales according to their ranks. They were later exchanged for German medical personnel and had to explain how they had come into possessions of pocket-fulls of German military script.

1. Do you have a source for that story?

2. This historical account makes it clear that medical units weren't as "sacrosanct" as you make them sound: Medical Service in the European Theater of Operations
 
Didn’t the Marines do a study that showed that mixed gender line units performed worse across the board?

Yes they did [cant link, VPNs in china got shut down]

This isn’t to say FETs arnt useful, but the accompanying issues that would follow adding women to a line unit... I don’t think it’s worth the <5% that could make it.

Combat is one of those things you absolutely don’t want to compromise with, people dying for the sake of patting yourself on the back about the increase in the diversity is a shit argument to me.
 
Does it involve the Male Marines having sudden desires to protect and/or save their Female Counterparts?

I believe it was injury rates and slower overall time to mission accomplishment IIRC

Edit: It should be noted that this was an exercise completed in CONUS so the inclination to save women under fire isn’t something that can be measured in a simulation
 
1. Do you have a source for that story?
Unfortunately no, it was in one of the histories of the Ardennes battle I read when I was doing research on the 1944/45 Ardennes campaign and it stuck in my mind. It's not mentioned on the web in any way I can find but I believe it was in one of the official US Army histories. I'll look through my library and try and refind it for you.

***EDIT*** Story confirmed in reference you provide below.

2. This historical account makes it clear that medical units weren't as "sacrosanct" as you make them sound: Medical Service in the European Theater of Operations
I have access to all the US Army official histories though so I'll look it up in real text.

***EDIT***
All right, I got the original text for this book - it refers specifically to the Ardennes Offensive. I am afraid that, taken as a whole, it doesn't support your case at all. The money-shot is early on in which, describing the Malmedy Massacre by Kampfgruppe Peiper it says "This was not to be the only desultory act of this kind to be committed by this unit, which gained the dubious distinction of being the only group to kill prisoners in the course of the Ardennes offensive."

A little later on, it mentions an incident which tends to confirm the story above. "With the newly taken prisoners still lined up in the courtyard a German captain addressed them and announced that they were prisoners of the Fifth Panzer Army and that the Germans planned to set up a clearing station in the convent. The captured medical staff were to remain there to take care of the American wounded. The German medical personnel consisting of five officers and 50 enlisted men arrived shortly thereafter. The officers attempted to be friendly but at the same time appropriated all of the American hospital supplies. The German equipment consisted of paper bandages, crude instruments, and make-shift sterilizers (snip) The captured surgeons continued to look after the American wounded in the days that followed to the best of their ability under steadily deteriorating conditions. Among the scores of casualties who arrived many died from lack of blood. There was no heat and supplies were giving out. The only bright spot in the situation was that on Christmas Eve the Germans sent a few bottles of wine to the basement where the Americans were quartered. Just as the surgeons were about to dole out this unexpected gift to the casualties, four shells landed in rapid succession in the courtyard, and four Americans were injured by falling beams and flying glass.

This confirms that these American medical personnel were relatively well-treated and continued with their medical duties. Now, this bit is important. The Geneva Convention states that PoWs (which this group were despite their medical status) may be used for non-combatant work provide they are appropriately paid for that work. So, under these rules, the Germans were obliged to pay the Americans for their medical duties. This confirms the second part of the story I related. At a guess, the Heer pay corps, being as wonderfully bureaucratic as any other military pay corps, decided that "appropriate" meant "what a German officer of equivalent rank would get". QED.

There is a description a bit later of a German attack on a medical unit that resulted in heavy casualties to the staff and patients. It's not clear whether the Germans knew this was a medical unit. The attack lasted 15 minutes and ended when an American officer reached the German commander and told him what was happening. This could be an error or a German unit operating under the Russian Front "Nasty Plan",

Another money-shot.
"Beyond taking care of its wounded, the U.S. Army extended the same quality of care to enemy wounded that were being captured in increasing numbers."

Overall, I would say this book confirms my original suggestion and provides a kind-of source for the "used and paid" story. I'm lucky in that when people quote a source, I have the resources to get the original and read it. Or, to be honest, get one of my minions to find it. :)

Sacrosanct is overstating it, I agree although the situation in WW2 was greatly better than it is now. Oddly WW1 was pretty bad with the Germans actually making an operational principle of "The War on the Wounded" which involved deliberate attacks on hospitals and hospital ships. This does not appear to have happened in WW2 France, Italy and North Africa although it was common practice in Russia.

This reference “Medic!” | AMERICAN HERITAGE gives an interesting overview of the situation and there are a couple of accounts in there (particularly one of a German unit that encountered an American ambulance that had got lost and was behind German lines. The German troops sent it back to American lines; the Americans responded by sending over a crate of cigarettes. The problem for the Germans was that they had two postures. A friend of mine calls these "the nice plan" which applies in Western Europe and Italy and "the nasty plan" which applied on the Russian Front. Now it seems fairly clear from looking at events, German units that had spent the was in France or Italy behaved quite well. The trouble came when units were brought from the Russian Front, they brought "the nasty plan" with them. hence Oradour sur Glane et al. Downward cycles are hard to stop when they get started. However, the ultimate answer to this came from the medics themselves; their response to medics being killed was to make themselves more visible not less. US Medics started wearing two red cross armbands instead of one and painted their helmets white with a large red cross. Evidence (quoted in the reference above) suggested that medics being killed was either the result of random indirect fire or the medic not being recognized,

The Russian front was completely different; there Russian medical personnel were killed out of hand. The legend of the "clean Heer" was a post-war construct; essentially there was no difference between the Heer and the SS on the Russian Front. It is worth noting that in a war where the opposing armies consist of millions of young men with guns, there's going to be a proportion of nut-cases and the resulting unfortunate incidents. That's why its best to study this side of things from general principles rather than specific incidents.

Another problem was the depth of the battlefield. In WW1, "the zone of war" was very sharply defined as the range of artillery (10-15 miles at most) from the other side. Outside the "zone of war", essentially peace reigned. The BBC TV Series The Great War has an entire episode devoted to this dichotomy. It started to break down with the German zeppelin raids on London etc but even by 1919, the division was still clear. In WW2 it wasn't. The Zone of War was hundreds of miles deep and very fuzzy. That made target discrimination harder.

The final contributor is time. The situation with regard to the Geneva Convention cycled downwards as the war went on. What was normal in 1940 was rare by 1945 and vice versa. I would say the best summary would be that in France and Italy right up to 1944, people tried to do the right thing; after the big influx of German troops from Russia, they didn't.
 
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My experiences of women in uniform have never been pleasant. Not so much that the women couldn't do the job. They could, when properly motivated. Just that they wouldn't and then when you tried to enforce disciplinary standards your own chain of command would often undermine you. And these women knew it too. What's the point of doing things to standard when the chain of command covers you when you fuck up?

I'll probably copy and paste my responses on SB over here but I have little desire to go into details on it again.
 
My experiences of women in uniform have never been pleasant. Not so much that the women couldn't do the job. They could, when properly motivated. Just that they wouldn't and then when you tried to enforce disciplinary standards your own chain of command would often undermine you. And these women knew it too. What's the point of doing things to standard when the chain of command covers you when you fuck up?

In fairness, that happens in a lot of civilian companies as well. the damage it causes is crippling because the next step is that male employees see their female counterparts getting away with that kind of crap and following their example. It's not fun being any kind of manager these days. :cry:
 
In fairness, that happens in a lot of civilian companies as well. the damage it causes is crippling because the next step is that male employees see their female counterparts getting away with that kind of crap and following their example. It's not fun being any kind of manager these days. :cry:
The main thing I see (on the civilian side) is female boss-female subordinate relationships having many, many more problems than the other combinations.
 

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