WI: Thirty Years' War ends in a decisive victory for either side

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
(Really, when you think about it, the Polish Corridor was one of the most interesting and longest-contested historical borderlands out there!)
This is Gdansk Pomerania or Royal Prussia. Not a Polish corridor. As it is, rather, any German action should be called an attempt to create a German Corridor.
Curzon Line-style eastern border
Rather old, from before Casimir III inherited the Halych throne, Poland's border for three centuries.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Perhaps @Skallagrim, the boundaries drawn on the map were bit too generous to the Protestant HRE on the Polish frontier, and annexation of Gdansk would be unlikely, annexation of royal Prussia possible but not guaranteed, and even if it did happen, the new improved HRE wouldn't have such wide and thorough land corridor from Pomerania to Prussia controlling all so much of West Prussia or Pomerelia. The area kept Slavic affiliations pretty continuously. Likewise, the Poles might have won some gains in upper Silesia.
I can agree about the breadth of the corridor, but I think that the Protestants would put all effort into securing just such a corridor -- and that this would definitely involve taking Gdansk. Polisg gains in Silesia are certainly possible, since losing a bit there would seem like a satisfactory trade for gaining thst land corridor up North.

Again, I stress that this would basically be a fight between the victorious Protestants, no longer occupied elsewhere, against Poland-Lithuania alone, deprived of all possible allies in this conflict. Wishful thinking to the contrary, the Poles were not actually superhuman, and would not be able to "just win" that kind of fight.

Let me draw up a map taking some of what you said into consideration:

Summer-and-Winter-edit.png


Not depicted here because I couldn't be arsed to figure out the region's border, but the Galician region contained many Greek Catholics, who might well stick with rump-Poland later on, and eventually become pretty much Polonised. So that's another way Poland could be a bit bigger. (Just imagine that Russian triangle -- that we now have jutting out there, in between Poland and Hungary -- being part of Poland instead.)


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Or like Sorbian within Germany, around the Cottbus area?
Yeah, something like that, although as I understand it, Sorbian is really not doing very well, whereas Frisian is still pretty widely spoken today.


I didn't realize that Prussia already had ambitions on the Polish Corridor even before Frederick the Great! I mean, Yes, there was Royal Prussia, but its autonomy had largely disappeared in or shortly after 1569:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Prussia
(Really, when you think about it, the Polish Corridor was one of the most interesting and longest-contested historical borderlands out there!)
Controlling that area gives you an enormous strategic advantage, not to mention a great economic boon. There's also the fact that Germany is pursuing an alliance with Sweden, so them controlling the Baltic coast together is a pretty obvious goal. (Not to mention the convenient reality of things with Russia getting hashed out peacefully, thus creating prospects for a long-term "Baltic peace" between these Northern powers.)


What I really like about this map is that it gives Russia a border on the Carpathian Mountains by allowing it to annex all of Moldavia, including the western, future Romanian part of Moldavia that includes cities such as Iasi.
It's the obvious border, really. Especially since the Ottoman Empire is still going to be strong enough to prevent any further Russian encroachment. I could see it become the long-term border.


Must suck for the Hungarians being landlocked, no?
They get complete independence and the best borders they could posaibly ask for. That ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.
 

ATP

Well-known member
I can agree about the breadth of the corridor, but I think that the Protestants would put all effort into securing just such a corridor -- and that this would definitely involve taking Gdansk. Polisg gains in Silesia are certainly possible, since losing a bit there would seem like a satisfactory trade for gaining thst land corridor up North.

Again, I stress that this would basically be a fight between the victorious Protestants, no longer occupied elsewhere, against Poland-Lithuania alone, deprived of all possible allies in this conflict. Wishful thinking to the contrary, the Poles were not actually superhuman, and would not be able to "just win" that kind of fight.

Let me draw up a map taking some of what you said into consideration:

Summer-and-Winter-edit.png


Not depicted here because I couldn't be arsed to figure out the region's border, but the Galician region contained many Greek Catholics, who might well stick with rump-Poland later on, and eventually become pretty much Polonised. So that's another way Poland could be a bit bigger. (Just imagine that Russian triangle -- that we now have jutting out there, in between Poland and Hungary -- being part of Poland instead.)


--------------------------------------



Yeah, something like that, although as I understand it, Sorbian is really not doing very well, whereas Frisian is still pretty widely spoken today.



Controlling that area gives you an enormous strategic advantage, not to mention a great economic boon. There's also the fact that Germany is pursuing an alliance with Sweden, so them controlling the Baltic coast together is a pretty obvious goal. (Not to mention the convenient reality of things with Russia getting hashed out peacefully, thus creating prospects for a long-term "Baltic peace" between these Northern powers.)



It's the obvious border, really. Especially since the Ottoman Empire is still going to be strong enough to prevent any further Russian encroachment. I could see it become the long-term border.



They get complete independence and the best borders they could posaibly ask for. That ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.

It is not wisful thinking,only realistic one.Gdańsk was full of german protestants - who wonted be part of Poland to the point that they fought prussians alone in 1792 when Poland capitulated.

The same goes for East Prussia - Hohenzollerns need to purge elites there,becouse they/german protestants/ prefered Poland,too.

And winged hussarls from 1648 was supersoldiers,wasted in OTL by stupid commanders against Cossacks.
Now,nobody would waste tem,becouse King against united protestants would not use stupid commanders,but smart ones.
That would be enough to get draw in war - becouse winning against enemy with numerical advantage was normal thing for polish armies from that time.

Remember - in OTL we lost our 30.000 strong army in 1648 becouse first commander do not consider Cossack as tread and lost becouse of it,and next army was sent under 3 weak commanders who do not really command anything.Becouse new King feared strong commanders.

And,when we win ultimately after Deluge war with Moscov and later Turkey,gentry thought that we do not need strong army ,and feared only Kings who could become absolute monarchs.That is why they let polish army be disbanded and winged hussarls become funeral calvary.

Here,they would have strong enemy near polish core lands - they would want strong army.And Kings would not dare send idiot commanders to lead such armies.
And winged hussarls would remain supersoldiers capable of breaking through everything on battlefield till at least 1800.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
And winged hussarls would remain supersoldiers capable of breaking through everything on battlefield till at least 1800.
Rather, until the Hussar-forming chivalric ethos dies out. Because I think this is the real reason why everywhere else has failed to recreate our Hussars with its striking power. Because everywhere else the knightly ethos died out but in Poland it held on much longer, unfortunately the Deluge changed that, which is why the post-Deluge hussars became worse and worse.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
Rather, until the Hussar-forming chivalric ethos dies out. Because I think this is the real reason why everywhere else has failed to recreate our Hussars with its striking power. Because everywhere else the knightly ethos died out but in Poland it held on much longer, unfortunately the Deluge changed that, which is why the post-Deluge hussars became worse and worse.

You must be right.Companions paid not only for themselves,but 2 retainers,10-15 armed servanys,and 2 wagons each.And then waited till King paid them.Which basically NEVER covered costs.

Gentry becomed less rich,but still have money - problem is,those who had it decide that it is better to buy luxury goods then horses and weapons.Something changed in people in beginning of 18th century.

But,with existing thread of powerfull protestant bloc,gentry would keep its spirit longer.

P.S There is another reason why Poland would hold - Dutch.They get big money from buing grain from Poland,and they would not let it go.Not without a fight,at least.
I think,that their fleet would keep searoad to Gdańsk safe.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I can agree about the breadth of the corridor, but I think that the Protestants would put all effort into securing just such a corridor -- and that this would definitely involve taking Gdansk. Polisg gains in Silesia are certainly possible, since losing a bit there would seem like a satisfactory trade for gaining thst land corridor up North.

Again, I stress that this would basically be a fight between the victorious Protestants, no longer occupied elsewhere, against Poland-Lithuania alone, deprived of all possible allies in this conflict. Wishful thinking to the contrary, the Poles were not actually superhuman, and would not be able to "just win" that kind of fight.

Let me draw up a map taking some of what you said into consideration:

Summer-and-Winter-edit.png


Not depicted here because I couldn't be arsed to figure out the region's border, but the Galician region contained many Greek Catholics, who might well stick with rump-Poland later on, and eventually become pretty much Polonised. So that's another way Poland could be a bit bigger. (Just imagine that Russian triangle -- that we now have jutting out there, in between Poland and Hungary -- being part of Poland instead.)


--------------------------------------



Yeah, something like that, although as I understand it, Sorbian is really not doing very well, whereas Frisian is still pretty widely spoken today.



Controlling that area gives you an enormous strategic advantage, not to mention a great economic boon. There's also the fact that Germany is pursuing an alliance with Sweden, so them controlling the Baltic coast together is a pretty obvious goal. (Not to mention the convenient reality of things with Russia getting hashed out peacefully, thus creating prospects for a long-term "Baltic peace" between these Northern powers.)



It's the obvious border, really. Especially since the Ottoman Empire is still going to be strong enough to prevent any further Russian encroachment. I could see it become the long-term border.



They get complete independence and the best borders they could posaibly ask for. That ought to be enough to satisfy anyone.

Do you know why Russia didn't go for western Moldavia back in 1812? It conquered Moldova (eastern Moldavia) back then but not western Moldavia.

I also wonder: Is Lithuania going to get some kind of special autonomy within Russia in this TL? It's interesting because Russia here looks like a Russo-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Thanks for answering the rest of my questions here. :)
 

History Learner

Well-known member
@Skallagrim Did you ever make a map or detailed scenario for a Catholic victory? Also, what is the relationship between the Protestants and Orthodox on a religious level in the Protestant Win TL? Historically, they had good relations and communications.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
f special autonomy within Russia in this TL?
Special autonomy in Moscow... Good joke buddy but it's not in this country. (Well, unless taking over such a large amount of Polish lands at once with a whole lot of polonized Rusyns and colonists coming from the Crown will make what OLT was a fascination with Polish culture in Muscovites here go a step further and de facto polonize Moscow to some significant degree. OLT Polish was the court language in the Kremlin until the reign of Peter the Great when he returned from the West and began to make changes).

This makes a lot of sense because the Lithuanians of that time were already in the upper strata completely Polonized, the Belarusians in a large part. Almost all of the Ruthenian nobility which was the reason for tensions in Ukraine which eventually led uncontrollably to Cossack uprisings.
OTL even under the partitions, and more specifically after the Russian partition until around 1831, the rate of Polonization of Lithuanian peasants was enormous. The same in Belarus or Ukraine when the only higher education there was Polish. Only the fall of the November Uprising and harsh repressions weakened this process but did not stop it completely despite the truly enormous Russian efforts. The only thing they succeeded in doing was to largely unscrew the process of shifting the Byelorussian and Ukrainian languages toward Polish dialects/accentages. Ba, Belarusian was treated as a Polish dialect for much of the 19th century!
Anyway, you can see it when you peel off the Belarusian or Ukrainian Cyrillic and put it next to the Polish. These languages have quite a bit in common. And I even saw a graphic somewhere that showed the similarities of pure Ukrainian to other Slavic languages.
And my surprise was considerable when to Polish, Ukrainian was similar 78%, to Belarusian 81% and to Russian barely 50%. It is clear that Russian and Soviet influence on Ukrainian, although strong, is artificially imposed and Ukrainian itself has much less in common with them. (There is a big problem in Ukraine in this because many especially east of Dnipro use purely Russian words in their speech even though they speak Ukrainian and know well what the Ukrainian equivalents are. Although the war will most likely change that).
 
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WolfBear

Well-known member
Here is @Skallagrim's original alternatehistory.com post in regards to this, if anyone is curious:


Special autonomy in Moscow... Good joke buddy but it's not in this country. (Well, unless taking over such a large amount of Polish lands at once with a whole lot of polonized Rusyns and colonists coming from the Crown will make what OLT was a fascination with Polish culture in Muscovites here go a step further and de facto polonize Moscow to some significant degree. OLT Polish was the court language in the Kremlin until the reign of Peter the Great when he returned from the West and began to make changes).

This makes a lot of sense because the Lithuanians of that time were already in the upper strata completely Polonized, the Belarusians in a large part. Almost all of the Ruthenian nobility which was the reason for tensions in Ukraine which eventually led uncontrollably to Cossack uprisings.
OTL even under the partitions, and more specifically after the Russian partition until around 1831, the rate of Polonization of Lithuanian peasants was enormous. The same in Belarus or Ukraine when the only higher education there was Polish. Only the fall of the November Uprising and harsh repressions weakened this process but did not stop it completely despite the truly enormous Russian efforts. The only thing they succeeded in doing was to largely unscrew the process of shifting the Byelorussian and Ukrainian languages toward Polish dialects/accentages. Ba, Belarusian was treated as a Polish dialect for much of the 19th century!
Anyway, you can see it when you peel off the Belarusian or Ukrainian Cyrillic and put it next to the Polish. These languages have quite a bit in common. And I even saw a graphic somewhere that showed the similarities of pure Ukrainian to other Slavic languages.
And my surprise was considerable when to Polish, Ukrainian was similar 78%, to Belarusian 81% and to Russian barely 50%. It is clear that Russian and Soviet influence on Ukrainian, although strong, is artificially imposed and Ukrainian itself has much less in common with them. (There is a big problem in Ukraine in this because many especially east of Dnipro use purely Russian words in their speech even though they speak Ukrainian and know well what the Ukrainian equivalents are. Although the war will most likely change that).

 

raharris1973

Well-known member
On a Catholic victory

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Yeah. Just as the Protestant victory sees them establishing a pretty coherent empire that leaves out the altogether too Catholic bits, I think that a Catholic victory will have the HRE much-strengthened, but with some doggedly Protestant regions in the North shorn off (becoming separate states, allied to Scandinavia). In this context, I'm particularly thinking of Brandenburg, Pomerania, Mecklenburg, Lübeck, Holstein, Hamburg and Bremen. (East Frisia and Oldenburg, conversely, would presumably be held by the HRE.)

We'd see several reversals of the trends that I have suggested in the Protestant victory scenario. Switzerland would be purged of Protestants to a considerable degree (and would stay in the HRE). Similarly, whereas in the Protestant victory scenario we see Bohemia and Hungary swing to Protestant dominance, in this ATL, they'd instead be held firmly under Catholic control. (And, more so than in OTL, they'd be purged of Protestants.)

Similarly, my Protestant victory scenario has the German Empire make gains at the expense of Poland-Lithuania, but here the reverse would be true: East Prussia would be annexed by Poland-Lithuania, and its Protestants would soon be very much encouraged to find a new home in Brandenburg. (And due to the circumstances surrounding both France and Saxony in this scenario, neither the Prince of Conti nor Augustus the Strong would easily be able to get the Polish throne, so Jakub Ludwik Sobieski -- the Austrian-backed candidate -- is likely to become King of Poland.)

In the Protestant victory scenario, many Catholics would leave the Protestant Empire. In this scenario, many Protestants would leave the HRE and head for the Protestant states up North. In particular, Saxony would be brutally punished by the Habsburgs, and the Protestants there would be smart to flee in time.

The overall success of the Catholic side would probably also affect the outcome in the Netherlands, with all of Brabant and Limburg (as well as some Catholic border regions in the country's East) being split off the Dutch Republic. (Which would become something of a Calvinist rump state.)

France would also face consequences, having joined the Protestant side and having made the wrong bet in doing so -- although France is not easily assailable. I could see them losing the wider Calais region to the Spanish Netherlands.

Spain is better off for a while, but can't easily overcome its structural issues. The Austrian Habsburgs are increasingly going to become the dominant branch, leading the powerful Catholic alliance that also keeps France encircled (much more effectively than in OTL). If the Spanish Habsburgs still end up literaly dying out, they'll make damned sure that Spain is inherited by other Habsburgs, not by Bourbons.

illustrative maps:

close-up


Europe-wide
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Do you know why Russia didn't go for western Moldavia back in 1812? It conquered Moldova (eastern Moldavia) back then but not western Moldavia.
This is a much-different scenario, and I won't go into detail, becaue that would derail the thread. A short summary is: Russia had other shit going on at the time, and the conflict with the Ottomans was on the back-burner. In a "no Napoleon" timeline, things may well have been different. But that's a discussion for another thread, another time.


I also wonder: Is Lithuania going to get some kind of special autonomy within Russia in this TL? It's interesting because Russia here looks like a Russo-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Almost certainly not, considering Russian attitudes at this point.


@Skallagrim Did you ever make a map or detailed scenario for a Catholic victory? Also, what is the relationship between the Protestants and Orthodox on a religious level in the Protestant Win TL? Historically, they had good relations and communications.
I've never made a map for a Catholic victory, but @raharris1973 has just posted some in the thread.

I think a long-term alliance between the Orthodox powers and the Protestant ones will have some pretty interesting consequences. They'd both view themselves as opposed to the Catholics and to the Muslim Ottomans. The fact that the Catholics would be in a tacit alliance with the Ottomans would only serve to under-score that point.

There would be a lot of talk about "freeing the Balkan Christians from the Muslim yoke", and Protestants would eagerly call for that, even though the Christians in question are Orthodox.

Protestants might stress the fact that the multiple Orthodox Patriarchs are in some ways similar to the way Protestants also refuse to recogise the supreme position of the Pope. And it might be noted that Orthodoxy has far more Platonist thought remaining within it (having misssed the neo-Aristotelian Scholastic revolution), whereas Protestantism has its own Platonist impulse, being a reaction to a Catholic Church that was dominated by Aristotelian thinking.

The Caesaropapist streak in Orthodoxy would also fit well with the Protestant focus of secular monarchs having primacy and being head of the national church.

Finally, it's conceivable that at least the Lutheran countries (Germany and the Scaninavian states), the organisation of the national Protestant churches might end up resembling Eastern Orthodox structures a bit more.


Here is @Skallagrim's original alternatehistory.com post in regards to this, if anyone is curious:
To be clear, it offers nothing that I haven't posted here, and in fact the version here is a bit "cleaned up" (the wording is improved a bit here and there).


On a Catholic victory

(...)

illustrative maps:

close-up


Europe-wide

Good maps! Really gets the point across.

Detail-wise, I do think that the borders in the Low Countries would favour the Habsburgs more, with them getting all of Limburg and Brabant, and also pushing the border with France a bit.

The borders being a product of war, they wouldn't follow pre-war political boundaries exactly, and various exclaves/enclaves would presumably be lost.

The Catholic victory would also mean, I think, that the HRE retains its holdings in Italy.

Finally (and this is more speculative) I suspect that the Habsburgs being in such a strong position, and the loss of certain HRE lands, could serve as a justification for them to "compensate" this by drawing their Croatian/Hungarian/Slovakian hldings into the HRE.

The map would then look rather like this:

HRE.png



Some stray thoughts:

-- The Austrian Habsburgs may be very interested in trading the Burgundian inheritance for the Italian lands of the HRE with their Spanish cousins (other than Milan, which the later already hold).

-- Conquering Venice and "convincing" the Papal States to become part of the HRE again would be another goal.

-- Presumably, if such were to happen, Italy North of the Kingdom of Naples (but excluding Corsica, I think) would be part of the HRE. But all the Italian lands would be ruled by the Spanish branch.

-- On the other hand, Istria and Dalmatia would be ruled by the Austrian Habsburgs, and would presumably be absorbed into the HRE.

-- The Greek holdings of Venice would surely fall prey to the Ottomans.

-- Longer-term, the Austrian Habsburgs would want to liberate all of Croatia, Hungary and Slovakia from the Ottomans. Precedent being there, I think they'd treat all these regions as just automatically being part of the HRE, if they're successful in such a conquest.

-- Poland-Lithuania would be a valuable Austrian ally, and their main goal would be to conquer Moldavia, Bessarabia and Yedisan.
 

raharris1973

Well-known member
-- Longer-term, the Austrian Habsburgs would want to liberate all of Croatia, Hungary and Slovakia from the Ottomans. Precedent being there, I think they'd treat all these regions as just automatically being part of the HRE, if they're successful in such a conquest.

-- Poland-Lithuania would be a valuable Austrian ally, and their main goal would be to conquer Moldavia, Bessarabia and Yedisan.

The Austrians would want all Hungary, including all Transylvania, for themselves in the HRE I presume?

Interesting thought on the PLC aim to get Yedisan, Bessarabia, and Moldavia, to regain access to the Black Sea coast. If they succeed and hold in perpetuity (or till modernity) this cuts off a Russian road to the Balkans.

If Wallachia can be pried away from the Ottomans, who is more likely to get it, the PLC or Austria? Will the Crimean Khanate fall out of Ottoman vassalage by the late 1700s? If so, into Muscovy-Russia’s sphere, or Poland-Lithuania’s?

Post 1648, or whatever year peace is made-Brandenburg, Swedish Pomerania, Danish Holstein, Bremen should have no problem repopulating and agriculturally redeveloping their war-devastated lands with all the Protestant refugees from Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Prussia, Bohemia, Hungary, and southern Netherlands available.

I imagine the north German states would all be interested in at least trying out colonial ventures of the plantation and trading variety, but also of the settler variety. Even if any individual states lack the merchant fleet or financial means to start a colonial, they will have surplus subjects ready and eager to participate in other countries’ colonial enterprise. For example, Holstein should get much more populous, and since it was already tied to Denmark politically it could threaten demographic balance in the Danish monarchy. It could also boost Danish colonial efforts. Would German speakers From or passing through Holstein and Schleswig who move to Danish colonies retain German or end up speaking Danish?

Might Swiss and other suddeutsche Protestant refugees shuffled to the northern states ultimately have an affinity for settling in the Appalachian and Allegheny hill country of the English colonies? Perhaps colonial fever among independent like Bremen, Hamburg, Lubeck, Brandenburg, or Mecklenburg in a world where the Americas are largely spoken for leads to earlier claims and settlements on Australia, New Zealand, or the eastern Cape that actually stick?



Your map has the Austrians taking Geneva with the the rest of Switzerland- that’s interesting. They effectively become more footloose Huguenots wandering Europe and the globe?
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
If Wallachia can be pried away from the Ottomans, who is more likely to get it, the PLC or Austria?

Austria, for geographic reasons, no? Assuming that Austria will keep Hungary here.

Will the Crimean Khanate fall out of Ottoman vassalage by the late 1700s? If so, into Muscovy-Russia’s sphere, or Poland-Lithuania’s?

Probably the PLC's, no? If the PLC already controls "Novorossiya" (perhaps "Novopolonia" in this TL), then expanding even further south into Crimea seems like the next logical step for them.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Elaborating on the Novopolonia idea: Who will end up settling it more? Poles or Ukrainians? Or even Lithuanians and Belarusians? I think that Ukrainians would have a premium here due to their ethnic territories being closer, but still, the PLC contained sizable numbers of Poles whom I wonder might also be interested in a beachfront relocation. In such a scenario, Novopolonia could develop a fusion Polish-Ukrainian culture similar to the fusion Russo-Ukrainian culture that Novorossiya has historically developed. Now that would be fun! Heck, sizable numbers of Jews could also move to Novopolonia if they are ever actually allowed to do so.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Novopolonia
We already have a name of our own for that region. Wild Fields something like our Wild West. Why change it to something like New Poland? We non-Russians do not have such miscarried ambitions.
Poles, without exception Poles. Belarusians were never eager to move on and when they did, they usually assimilated very quickly into the prevailing culture.
Lithuanians were slowly assimilated to being only a subordinate group within the "Sarmatians" or Poles as a purely regional identity, and if they emigrated, the same thing happened to them as to Belarusians.
The Ruthenians, on the other hand, most often took the name of Zaporozhian Cossacks in the region. Because they had already been drawn there to be free people, i.e. Cossacks, who were rather a crutch for the PLC, and should be called what they are, i.e. bandits who want to constantly invade other regions.

And Wisniewski, who OTL colonized this de facto empty region, preferred to draw colonists from the Crown or from Germany and, more importantly, pursued a specific religious policy by building Roman Catholic churches and not Greek Catholic churches as was usually done in Ruthenia as part of the union of the Orthodox Church there with the Catholic Church. Hence the tensions in Zaporozhye a.k.a. the Wild Fields, for the Cossacks were simply being pushed out and knew full well that settling the region would eventually break their freedom. And the fact that some of the colonists were not Ruthenians only exacerbated this dispute over nationality.

Without Vladislav IV's games here, because I don't know he'd get his war or be calmer this region would probably have been settled by Poles and the Zaporozhian Cossacks broken and confined to small towns from which the PLC would have recruited infantry.
Polish-Ukrainian culture similar
Rather similar to what happened to the Kashubians, that is, a separate nation that began to consider itself an eternal part of the Polish nation, because the Kashubians are not of Polish descent, they are the last Slavic Pomeranians who eventually blended into the Polish nation, they have their own distinctiveness but consider themselves both Poles and Kashubians.

BWT At the same time, already OTL there is already such a culture and you know what it is called? Ukrainians, it is this Polish-Ruthenian identity as a rival to the Russian-Ruthenian one. And as you can see, in the end, the Ukrainians won against the Malorossians.
In a sense, Ukrainians are such Americans or Canadians to Poles.
Remember at this time there is no such thing as a Ukrainian! All those living there consider themselves Ruthenians!
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Heck, sizable numbers of Jews could also move to Novopolonia
Oh, and I would forget, OTL have already moved there in massive numbers. Do you know what happened to them? The Cossacks slaughtered them in huge numbers during the uprisings.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Oh, and I would forget, OTL have already moved there in massive numbers. Do you know what happened to them? The Cossacks slaughtered them in huge numbers during the uprisings.

Well, large additional numbers of them subsequently moved there by the mid-20th century ;):

Jews1959ua.png


Those are Jewish percentages out of the total population who lived there in 1959, BTW.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Those are Jewish percentages out of the total population who lived there in 1959, BTW.
And it can also be noted that in the former Wild Fields it is much lower than in neighboring Bessarabia, no less Jews were there in large numbers in the 17th century, many of whom were impaled or drowned in the river by Cossacks. In turn, some fled and were reluctant to return. What was left there was more the result of expulsions of Jews from Russia proper or something.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
And it can also be noted that in the former Wild Fields it is much lower than in neighboring Bessarabia, no less Jews were there in large numbers in the 17th century, many of whom were impaled or drowned in the river by Cossacks. In turn, some fled and were reluctant to return. What was left there was more the result of expulsions of Jews from Russia proper or something.

Or hanged.Cossack used to hang jew,gentry and dog on the same tree,becouse for them all 3 have the same Faith.
Wiśniowiecki,who saved everybody he could from cossack,was consider as almost saint by jews.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
And it can also be noted that in the former Wild Fields it is much lower than in neighboring Bessarabia, no less Jews were there in large numbers in the 17th century, many of whom were impaled or drowned in the river by Cossacks. In turn, some fled and were reluctant to return. What was left there was more the result of expulsions of Jews from Russia proper or something.

FWIW, the Moldovan SSR (roughly equivalent to Bessarabia) was 3.3% Jewish in 1959, so comparable to Kharkiv/Kharkov Oblast and much lower than Odessa Oblast:

 

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