Which Post Apocalypse civilization can help the Paradise Island against the world?

[King Arts]

Because, as you say, you view the other humans as "no different than aliens". If you will enslave or genocide them why should the Machines think that you'll somehow consider them "human"? It was such thinking which prompted the Machine-Human war in the Matrix universe IIRC and you'd have convinced them all of the worst, negative traits of mankind. For a race which already views humanity as little more than a battery.


Potentially yes, through I'd also add the risk of the zombie virus as a down side to picking the Commonwealth. The other is, of course, the fact they are setting up a colony which as any casual student of history knows is never a good thing long term. In this particular case I think it's mitigated by the Commonwealth's limited resources and population and, hopefully, they won't be able to pull a Hawaii on us. At least not before we can tech up and match them on more equal footing

You are wrong the machines would dislike a group that sees all humans as one and wants to oppress nonhumans especially machines as bad. If you are not a pan human supremacy then you won’t trigger them. Also your ideals aren’t consistent it’s betrayal to enslave humans who are trying to destroy youand sell them to robots because the humans are closer to your ethnicity? I mean would you say the same thing if instead of humans it was aliens like the covenant? You are betraying all life! After all both you and aliens are biological and living that makes you more similar than robots.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Wait until the robots crack open a history book and see the cyclical history that led up to Attack on Titan as they realize there's basically no difference from one group of Genocidal Humans to another except happenstance so why bother dealing with one special group of Humans?

In this agreement the Eldians literally have no power if the Robots decide... Ya know... Why not enslave all the Humans as batteries?

Maybe it's a one percent chance of them doing so. Maybe it's a one hundred percent chance of it happening. Any agreement with the Robots however has that implied threat lording over Humanity in near perpetuity.

The Robots have proven in fact that they are comfortable with enslaving all Humans on their World regardless of guilt, are willing to enslave all Humans on this world regardless of guilt but Don't worry guys, we'll be the exception because we're betraying the rest of our species to show how exceptionally trustworthy we are and this agreement will last!

 

[King Arts]

Wait until the robots crack open a history book and see the cyclical history that led up to Attack on Titan as they realize there's basically no difference from one group of Genocidal Humans to another except happenstance so why bother dealing with one special group of Humans?

In this agreement the Eldians literally have no power if the Robots decide... Ya know... Why not enslave all the Humans as batteries?

Maybe it's a one percent chance of them doing so. Maybe it's a one hundred percent chance of it happening. Any agreement with the Robots however has that implied threat lording over Humanity in near perpetuity.

The Robots have proven in fact that they are comfortable with enslaving all Humans on their World regardless of guilt, are willing to enslave all Humans on this world regardless of guilt but Don't worry guys, we'll be the exception because we're betraying the rest of our species to show how exceptionally trustworthy we are and this agreement will last!

Two things first yes the machines have a lot more power than Eldia. But you could make the same argument about Europe and America. Should Americas Allie’s try and destroy it because America is so powerful it could destroy them all?

Second why do you say that thing again betraying my species! What betrayal? If this was about the covenant and humans would selling the covenant be betraying all life? No it’s ridiculous Eldians can live without the rest of humanity there is nothing to betray human species would still exist as eldians.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Two things first yes the machines have a lot more power than Eldia. But you could make the same argument about Europe and America. Should Americas Allie’s try and destroy it because America is so powerful it could destroy them all?

The differences in scale, power, technology, psychology and species between Eldia and the Robots versus Europe and America makes this comparative metaphor almost farcical.

If you feel there is no significant difference between the Robots who wipes out Humanity and enslaved them in totality indiscriminately and also wiped out the City of Zion repeatedly to solve a pernicious glitch in the system and here are more then willing to wipe out Humanity again with... Modern European-American relations... Then there's no discussion to have because it's obvious we have completely different interpretations of reality.

Second why do you say that thing again betraying my species! What betrayal? If this was about the covenant and humans would selling the covenant be betraying all life? No it’s ridiculous Eldians can live without the rest of humanity there is nothing to betray human species would still exist as eldians.

You can call wiping out 99% of Humanity on behalf of Robots whose wiped out and enslaved 99.9% of all the Humans they encountered not betraying species, it doesn't change the fact that Eldians are completely subject to the whims of Robots who again have wiped out 99.9% of all Humans they've ever encountered and your counter arguments are "I'm not betraying Humans!" and "What about Europe-US relations? There's a power imbalance there too!"

Nothing about... The potential ramifications of making a deal with Robots who've enslaved 99.9% of all the Humans they've ever encountered.

 

[King Arts]

The differences in scale, power, technology, psychology and species between Eldia and the Robots versus Europe and America makes this comparative metaphor almost farcical.

If you feel there is no significant difference between the Robots who wipes out Humanity and enslaved them in totality indiscriminately and also wiped out the City of Zion repeatedly to solve a pernicious glitch in the system and here are more then willing to wipe out Humanity again with... Modern European-American relations... Then there's no discussion to have because it's obvious we have completely different interpretations of reality.



You can call wiping out 99% of Humanity on behalf of Robots whose wiped out and enslaved 99.9% of all the Humans they encountered not betraying species, it doesn't change the fact that Eldians are completely subject to the whims of Robots who again have wiped out 99.9% of all Humans they've ever encountered and your counter arguments are "I'm not betraying Humans!" and "What about Europe-US relations? There's a power imbalance there too!"

Nothing about... Making a deal with Robots who've enslaved 99.9% of all the Humans they've ever encountered.

The robots wiped out and enslaved humans who wanted to wipe them out and also killed the humans who were allied to the robots. I haven’t watched second renaissance in a long time but that is how it went I think.Also the robots treated the humans extremely nicely the first few simulations were a paradise but humans wouldn’t believe it so they eventually settled for modern 21st century America hardly a dystopian vision like I have no mouth and I must scream. Maybe if I recommend that as the simulation for non eldians it will actually work.
Also again no the power imbalance is not noticeable difference between America and some European nations what does it matter if they are 1000 times stronger than you or 1000000 times stronger. You still have no chance. Also who cares about the percentage 99 percent of humanity gets screwed but the remainder 1 percent the Eldians can rebuild the globe they are the new humans. Betrayal of humanity implies the species itself is in trouble as long as the species viability is still good then humans are not betrayed. After all if you are looking at numbers then we should save China over America because China has so many more humans.

 

[Husky_Khan]

The robots wiped out and enslaved humans who wanted to wipe them out and also killed the humans who were allied to the robots. I haven’t watched second renaissance in a long time but that is how it went I think.

So your dispute of me stating the Robots killed or enslaved 99.9% of all the Humans is that yes.... they killed or enslaved 99.9% of all the Humans regardless if allied or not?

Also the robots treated the humans extremely nicely the first few simulations were a paradise but humans wouldn’t believe it so they eventually settled for modern 21st century America hardly a dystopian vision like I have no mouth and I must scream. Maybe if I recommend that as the simulation for non eldians it will actually work.

Actually it was only the first simulation in which they "treated Humans" nice. The very next simulation was a Hellish simulation, which is part of the origin story of some of the more interesting programs out there apparently. Each of the simulation failures resulted in the loss of entire crops of Humans, according to the Robots.

Also since this is 19th century era Humans being enslaved, there's no reason to assume that settling for a modern 21st Century America simulation would work. So your suggestion would potentially result in the death of tens of thousands or millions of people, though we've already established you don't care because "my vague ethnicity."

Also again no the power imbalance is not noticeable difference between America and some European nations what does it matter if they are 1000 times stronger than you or 1000000 times stronger. You still have no chance. Also who cares about the percentage 99 percent of humanity gets screwed but the remainder 1 percent the Eldians can rebuild the globe they are the new humans. Betrayal of humanity implies the species itself is in trouble as long as the species viability is still good then humans are not betrayed. After all if you are looking at numbers then we should save China over America because China has so many more humans.

I find it fascinating that you managed to turn this discussion into your agreement of the complicity of genocide backed by ethnocentrism when all I'm asking is about the very real power disparity and the folly of making a deal with Robots who've murdered or enslaved 99.9% of all of Humanity they've encountered and what guarantees you have of the Robots treating Eldians as the exception when they haven't anyone else in their entire history.

And there's no guarantee that the remaining Eldians will be able to rebuild the globe as new Humans unless the Robots allow it to happen. And you still haven't provided a convincing argument that they'll even allow the Eldians to exist as anything more then crops to be harvested beyond "America hasn't genocided Europe yet."

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

You are wrong the machines would dislike a group that sees all humans as one and wants to oppress nonhumans especially machines as bad. If you are not a pan human supremacy then you won’t trigger them. Also your ideals aren’t consistent it’s betrayal to enslave humans who are trying to destroy youand sell them to robots because the humans are closer to your ethnicity? I mean would you say the same thing if instead of humans it was aliens like the covenant? You are betraying all life! After all both you and aliens are biological and living that makes you more similar than robots.

The issue isn't that the Non-Eldia are more closely related to the Eldia than the Machines. At least not directly. The core issue would be the same if the Eldia wanted use the Machines to to enslave and genocide Orcs. My entire point is that you are arbitrarily justifying the genocide and enslavement of sapient life *because* they don't count as human in your eyes. That, to quote you, everyone who isn't Eldia is "no different than aliens". A category which also happens to include the Machines. A race which shares your view that "non-human" life, in this case defined as Machine life, is essentially cattle.

So I ask again. Why should the Machines trust or even respect your personage under such circumstances. Why shouldn't they conclude you are treacherous, would turn on them the instant you had the power and therefore they're justified in wiping you out first? What part of the Machines history, culture or actions suggests they'd be far more generous and compassionate to you than you are towards everyone else?

As for my ideals, and their consistency, I have said nothing about defending yourself but we're not discussing that. The Machines don't care about the genocide other than, perhaps, the loss of batteries, and the harvesting has no connection to the war to protect Eldia. That's completely separate issue that must, either from non-Eldia or from the Eldia, be paid into perpetuity regardless to the actions of the non-Eldia. You have in fact previously expressed a desire to force the other nations to live "in shitty lifestyle with no tech and just do occasionally harvests when they get to big to capture slaves to sell to the machines". So you're not just planning on selling soldiers actively fighting against you. You are selling civilians, possibly women and children, whom you have deliberated lowered their standard of living and capability to make them an easier harvest.

That's very different from, say, using a firebombing campaign to break an opponent's will to fight where at least that is a means to an end, not the end itself.

 

[King Arts]

So your dispute of me stating the Robots killed or enslaved 99.9% of all the Humans is that yes.... they killed or enslaved 99.9% of all the Humans regardless if allied or not?

Oh I’m sorry I should have put a period or comma. No they killed or enslaved 99 percent of the people who killed the human Allie’s of the machines. The robots did not wipe out their human Allie’s the other humans wiped out the machines human friends sorry it’s hard to type on the phone. But the humans who were enslaved were the ones who tried to genocide the robots and did kill any humans who were friends of the robots.

Actually it was only the first simulation in which they "treated Humans" nice. The very next simulation was a Hellish simulation, which is part of the origin story of some of the more interesting programs out there apparently. Each of the simulation failures resulted in the loss of entire crops of Humans, according to the Robots.

Also since this is 19th century era Humans being enslaved, there's no reason to assume that settling for a modern 21st Century America simulation would work. So your suggestion would potentially result in the death of tens of thousands or millions of people, though we've already established you don't care because "my vague ethnicity."

Really? I did not know that it’s been a long time since I watched matrix though.

I find it fascinating that you managed to turn this discussion into your agreement of the complicity of genocide backed by ethnocentrism when all I'm asking is about the very real power disparity and the folly of making a deal with Robots who've murdered or enslaved 99.9% of all of Humanity they've encountered and what guarantees you have of the Robots treating Eldians as the exception when they haven't anyone else in their entire history.

And there's no guarantee that the remaining Eldians will be able to rebuild the globe as new Humans unless the Robots allow it to happen. And you still haven't provided a convincing argument that they'll even allow the Eldians to exist as anything more then crops to be harvested beyond "America hasn't genocided Europe yet."

You had two arguments the moral argument that the robots can’t be trusted because they enslave humans and the second argument that they are so much more powerful than us that they could dictate any terms.

The issue isn't that the Non-Eldia are more closely related to the Eldia than the Machines. At least not directly. The core issue would be the same if the Eldia wanted use the Machines to to enslave and genocide Orcs. My entire point is that you are arbitrarily justifying the genocide and enslavement of sapient life *because* they don't count as human in your eyes. That, to quote you, everyone who isn't Eldia is "no different than aliens". A category which also happens to include the Machines. A race which shares your view that "non-human" life, in this case defined as Machine life, is essentially cattle.

Ahh no you are misunderstanding me. I don’t see non Eldians as subhumans I acknowledge that they are humans and people just like Eldians or anyone else. I just want to kill or wipe them out for two reasons first self preservation and second to punish them for the oppression they did to Eldians. The machines have nothing to fear as long as they don’t try to wipe my people out or feed little girls of my race to dogs or things like that.

So I ask again. Why should the Machines trust or even respect your personage under such circumstances. Why shouldn't they conclude you are treacherous, would turn on them the instant you had the power and therefore they're justified in wiping you out first? What part of the Machines history, culture or actions suggests they'd be far more generous and compassionate to you than you are towards everyone else?

Because again neither the Eldians nor the machines have hurt each other we have o reason to quarrel. Neither of us want to enslave or exterminate the other why don’t we just treat each other good so that in the future we don’t have people trying to wipe out the other because of past actions.

As for my ideals, and their consistency, I have said nothing about defending yourself but we're not discussing that. The Machines don't care about the genocide other than, perhaps, the loss of batteries, and the harvesting has no connection to the war to protect Eldia. That's completely separate issue that must, either from non-Eldia or from the Eldia, be paid into perpetuity regardless to the actions of the non-Eldia. You have in fact previously expressed a desire to force the other nations to live "in shitty lifestyle with no tech and just do occasionally harvests when they get to big to capture slaves to sell to the machines". So you're not just planning on selling soldiers actively fighting against you. You are selling civilians, possibly women and children, whom you have deliberated lowered their standard of living and capability to make them an easier harvest.

That's very different from, say, using a firebombing campaign to break an opponent's will to fight where at least that is a means to an end, not the end itself.

The only reason I consider putting non Eldians in that state is as punishment for their attacks on Eldia. Again this is not oh they are inferior to Eldians let’s reduce their standard of living. It’s they and their ancestors have hurt us the sins of the father pass on to the son. Basically the warhammer dwarf thought process.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Ahh no you are misunderstanding me. I don’t see non Eldians as subhumans I acknowledge that they are humans and people just like Eldians or anyone else.

There was no misunderstanding. You said:

I’m sorry this is a stupid argument how are you treacherous? If you betrayed Eldia yes. Because you are Eldian. But enslaving the rest of humanity to the machines, or genociding them through the rumbling is not treason since you aren’t loyal to or a part of some pan human government or group. You care about Eldia, other humans are no different than aliens.

You are of course free to recant this position but not the fact you took it.

I just want to kill or wipe them out for two reasons first self preservation and second to punish them for the oppression they did to Eldians

Again that is not what you argued for. Other than the "self-preservation" of feeding the Machines.

I mean yeah it's morally wrong. But so is trying to genocide someone. So why not make a deal with the machines. After all they enslaved the humans from their world because the humans wanted to wipe them out. So make a deal with the machines, then enslave the survivors of Marley and the other nations except fantasy Japan. Make them live in shitty lifestyle with no tech and just do occasionally harvests when they get to big to capture slaves to sell to the machines.

At no point is your decision based around a threat or actions being undertaken by the Non-Eldia. You plan to carry this out long after the Non-Eldia are capable of threatening you even in the face of far better alliances that could achieve your, official, stance. That's before we consider your talk of being okay with the other 99% of humanity being harvested and the Eldia repopulating the Earth.

Simply put if you represent the Eldia thought process I certainly understand why everyone else wanted to kick them in the nuts.

The machines have nothing to fear as long as they don’t try to wipe my people out or feed little girls of my race to dogs or things like that.

Considering neither prerequisite is required for Non-Eldia, unless the Machines are incredibly short-sighted they are unlikely to believe that lie.

Neither of us want to enslave or exterminate the other why don’t we just treat each other good so that in the future we don’t have people trying to wipe out the other because of past actions.

Except neither you, nor the Machines for that matter, have any moral quandary to "enslave or exterminate" non-humans should it prove to be advantageous. So words mean nothing.

The only reason I consider putting non Eldians in that state is as punishment for their attacks on Eldia

Saying Non-Eldians deserve, for perpetuity, to be punished because of actions undertaken by some members of that group at one point in history is flawed thinking.

 

[King Arts]

You are of course free to recant this position but not the fact you took it.

There is nothing to recant. I care about Eldians not other people that does not mean other people are inferior. Again is the covenant from Halo inferior?

Again that is not what you argued for. Other than the "self-preservation" of feeding the Machines.

No that is what I argued it’s pretty obvious self preservation to destroy them so they can’t industrialize and overtake us since they outnumber us. The second issue I did not outright state but I implied.

At no point is your decision based around a threat or actions being undertaken by the Non-Eldia. You plan to carry this out long after the Non-Eldia are capable of threatening you even in the face of far better alliances that could achieve your, official, stance. That's before we consider your talk of being okay with the other 99% of humanity being harvested and the Eldia repopulating the Earth.

Simply put if you represent the Eldia thought process I certainly understand why everyone else wanted to kick them in the nuts.

Look at the bolded part enslave all non eldians except the Japanese. Why spare the Japanese? Because they have not attacked Eldia. The thing is a punishment even after they are no longer a threat yes because that’s what punishments are. When someone has lost ability to resist they receive a negative effect.

Also other options are not necessarily better the Marley empire by itself is sending 1 million soldiers to exterminate Eldia. The NCR offer 10,000 soldiers to fight that. The other options offer less one only gives 500. Even with modern tech it can’t push back a million man army. While the machines offer 1 million sentinels who are more powerful than a regular soldier.

Considering neither prerequisite is required for Non-Eldia, unless the Machines are incredibly short-sighted they are unlikely to believe that lie.

What are you talking about? That shit happened in AOT.

Faye Yeager

Faye Yeager (フェイ・イェーガー Fei Yēgā?) was the younger sister of Grisha Yeager and as an Eldian, she grew up in the Liberio internment zone in Marley. Faye had short, dark hair that barely reached her shoulders with messy bangs and dark eyes. She wore a flowing dress, a bright-colored scarf, and a...

attackontitan.fandom.com

Except neither you, nor the Machines for that matter, have any moral quandary to "enslave or exterminate" non-humans should it prove to be advantageous. So words mean nothing.

No I never said I would do it if it was advantageous I said I’d do it to survive a genocide or to get revenge.

Saying Non-Eldians deserve, for perpetuity, to be punished because of actions undertaken by some members of that group at one point in history is flawed thinking.

Why is it flawed thinking Mr robot? It’s just vicarious justice it is a thing in some religions and some cultures historically used it. The idea is that the actual offender can’t make restitution themselves either they died before punishment was imposed, but the wrong doing did not go away the victims blood cries for vengeance so one who is sufficiently close to the offender can take their place. That’s why you can punish someone for something their ancestor did 1000 years ago. Though to be honest you have to stop at some point but the main issue is that the price for saving Eldia was giving humans to robots. Though why the robots want this I don’t know when they can just use solar power now that they are connected to a planet that is not suffering from nuclear winter.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

There is nothing to recant. I care about Eldians not other people that does not mean other people are inferior. Again is the covenant from Halo inferior?

Unless you are willing to also sell Eldians into chattle slavery, by definition you view them as "inferior" in value.

No that is what I argued it’s pretty obvious self preservation to destroy them so they can’t industrialize and overtake us since they outnumber us. The second issue I did not outright state but I implied.

No, you're call for genocide and enslavement of every person other than Eldia, and even then I suspect only those who agree with you, goes way beyond any sane definition of "self-preservation". It would be one thing if you only traded the soldiers of the attacking armies. It would still be morally questionable but at least that could be argued is in self-defense. If the enemy quits attacking you'd stop enslaving them.

What you are proposing is something else.

Look at the bolded part enslave all non eldians except the Japanese. Why spare the Japanese? Because they have not attacked Eldia.

The fact you have not, at the moment, decided to genocide a particular group hardly disproves your earlier assertion that all none Eldia live inherently less valuable than Eldia life. Like i said you seemed pretty blase about the Machines wiping out 99% of all life on the planet just as long as Eldia got to repopulate it.

The thing is a punishment even after they are no longer a threat yes because that’s what punishments are. When someone has lost ability to resist they receive a negative effect.

You seem to have a knack for conflicting separate concepts. An objection to genocide becomes, in your mind, an objection to self-preservation. An objection to turning an entire people to a chattel race becomes, to you, an objection to "a punishment". The issue is the cavaliere way you seem to treat all life outside of {your group}, that you justify slavery on some bullshit sins of the father's mentality.

What are you talking about? That shit happened in AOT.

I'm sure it did but I said it wasn't *required*. That you will continue doing this *forever* long past the point the races in question could possibly carry out a genocide of their own. Ergo the threat of genocide or self-preservation isn't the motivating issue and therefore is irrelevant to this discussion.

No I never said I would do it if it was advantageous I said I’d do it to survive a genocide or to get revenge.

Your entire plan is to enslave the majority of the world's population just to feed your alliance with the Machines. Ie the only reason you are even entertaining the idea of not killing them to the last man, woman and child as a "punishment" is because it's more advantageous to keep them as a battery farm.

No one sane would trust you wouldn't find another excuse to wipe out any other "threats" once you were able. Especially not the Machines who have already lived through what human intolerance and inhumanity can wrought.

Also other options are not necessarily better the Marley empire by itself is sending 1 million soldiers to exterminate Eldia. The NCR offer 10,000 soldiers to fight that. The other options offer less one only gives 500. Even with modern tech it can’t push back a million man army. While the machines offer 1 million sentinels who are more powerful than a regular soldier.

1 one million man army of roughly WW1 grade IIRC. 500 modern troops with modern mobility and firepower could do a lot against that to disrupt and harass them. Further they offer the ability for Eldia to advance it's technology so it won't be 500 soldiers forever. Unlike with the Machines.

Why is it flawed thinking Mr robot?

On the most basic level that line of thinking leads to endless cycles of violence to "punish" each other for past violence. On a grander level it destroys the individual and replaces him with a gestalt which goes against pretty much everything Western Civ or the Founders in particular strove for.

 

[King Arts]

Unless you are willing to also sell Eldians into chattle slavery, by definition you view them as "inferior" in value.

This is the most leftest view I've ever seen. Thinking that because you don't treat others equally you view some as inferior. No Eldians are not superior to non Eldians, but they will get better treatment because they are MY group. Tell me is Husky's child inferior to your child? No my child is not better than other people's kids yet I will still prioritize the well being of my child over any other kids.

No, you're call for genocide and enslavement of every person other than Eldia, and even then I suspect only those who agree with you, goes way beyond any sane definition of "self-preservation". It would be one thing if you only traded the soldiers of the attacking armies. It would still be morally questionable but at least that could be argued is in self-defense. If the enemy quits attacking you'd stop enslaving them.

What you are proposing is something else.

It's not beyond the sane definition of self preservation. Attack on Titan shows us that the rest of the world WILL gang up and wipe out the Eldians, so the best thing to do is to wipe them all out first. Anyone that tries to stop this is a self hating cuck who has to be removed for all of our safety.
Also you say only soldiers should be sold. Why? Total war means everyone contributes the soldier would not be able to do what he does if the farmer did not feed him, and the factory worker did not make him weapons, the politician did not order him to do things. The women are also guilty as they will make more soldiers, the children are also a threat because they will grow up to become soldiers or support the soldiers. That is total war fighting with every ounce of your power.

The fact you have not, at the moment, decided to genocide a particular group hardly disproves your earlier assertion that all none Eldia live inherently less valuable than Eldia life. Like i said you seemed pretty blase about the Machines wiping out 99% of all life on the planet just as long as Eldia got to repopulate it.

To be fair it'd be more like 98% since I want to spare Japan. Also the reason I'm leaning towards the machines instead of regular rumbling is because the machines will at least make sure to not destroy the eco system and other species.

You seem to have a knack for conflicting separate concepts. An objection to genocide becomes, in your mind, an objection to self-preservation. An objection to turning an entire people to a chattel race becomes, to you, an objection to "a punishment". The issue is the cavaliere way you seem to treat all life outside of {your group}, that you justify slavery on some bullshit sins of the father's mentality.

Again though as we can see from the ending of attack on titan after the Eldians stopped those who started the rumbling 80% of humanity was wiped out yet that remaining 20% teamed up together and decided to genocide Eldia 100 years later. It really is us vs them.

I'm sure it did but I said it wasn't *required*. That you will continue doing this *forever* long past the point the races in question could possibly carry out a genocide of their own. Ergo the threat of genocide or self-preservation isn't the motivating issue and therefore is irrelevant to this discussion.

No it is relavent because the whole reason I'm opening a portal to the machines is because Marley and the rest of the world is coming to genocide us, and this is given as an alternative to the rumbling which will send millions of giants to destroy the world and living things it would turn everything into a barren desert. If those nations did not plan to invade or genocide us then I would be against the rumbling and against opening a portal to the machines.

Your entire plan is to enslave the majority of the world's population just to feed your alliance with the Machines. Ie the only reason you are even entertaining the idea of not killing them to the last man, woman and child as a "punishment" is because it's more advantageous to keep them as a battery farm.

No one sane would trust you wouldn't find another excuse to wipe out any other "threats" once you were able. Especially not the Machines who have already lived through what human intolerance and inhumanity can wrought.

It's not more advantageous to keep them alive, in fact I'd like to ask you Mr. Robot to stop the battery farm idea because you don't need it our world unlike the Matrix world has a visible sun you can use solar power and we can just kill all the Marleyans to make sure they don't rise up in the future and genocide us.

1 one million man army of roughly WW1 grade IIRC. 500 modern troops with modern mobility and firepower could do a lot against that to disrupt and harass them. Further they offer the ability for Eldia to advance it's technology so it won't be 500 soldiers forever. Unlike with the Machines.

No 500 people from a post apocalpytic modern society is not enough to stop 1 million men. Honestly if it was 10,000 East Coast Brotherhood of Steel then it would be something with power armor infantry plus vertibirds and airships to take out the Marleyan navy.

On the most basic level that line of thinking leads to endless cycles of violence to "punish" each other for past violence. On a grander level it destroys the individual and replaces him with a gestalt which goes against pretty much everything Western Civ or the Founders in particular strove for.

Well the endless cycles of violence will end if you wipe out everyone who would have a reason to want revenge.
Also what founders are you talking about why should I give a damn about some founders? They are either foreigners or they are King Fritz who started this shit in the first place.

 

[Scooby Doo]

@King Arts
@Crom's Black Blade


What's the concencus on the NCR contribution?

 

[King Arts]

@King Arts
@Crom's Black Blade


What's the concencus on the NCR contribution?

I think NCR is a good second choice but they contribute too little. The NCR for the most part seems to be stuck to ww1 level they have guys with guns and rifles. They might have some tanks and armored vehicles. But they don't have vertiberd power armor, lasers, etc. If it was like 100,000 that might be enough to hold off Marley.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

This is the most leftest view I've ever seen.

Not at all. First it's merely a statement of fact and a fact does not have any political bias. A is A after all.

Second, the issue is not, as you allege, that you prioritize your group over another's. The issue is the dehumanization. That rather than treating Non-Eldia as individuals with equal right to live their life peacefully as the Eldia, you treat them as inferiors who can only exist at your whim. That turning them into vassal slaves is not objectionable or morally wrong because they are essentially aliens.

I am all for prioritizing the interests of one's own group over others. That's the entire backbone of America First after all, a government should reflect the interests and concerns of its people rather than, say, some global oligarchy. The issue is the particular interests you've chosen to prioritize and your either ignorance of their implication or your chilling indifference to them.

Third, my argument is rooted in uplifting the individual and inalienable rights. It is the very bedrock upon which any right of center argument could be forged. In contrast your argument is rooted in collectivism from singular Volk to guilt being tied to identity rather than actions which are all just warmed over flavors of Leftist thought.

It's not beyond the sane definition of self preservation. Attack on Titan shows us that the rest of the world WILL gang up and wipe out the Eldians, so the best thing to do is to wipe them all out first.

Once again dehumanizing the "Other" into a single-minded, gestalt entity incapable of change. Condemning them for attempted genocide but applauding yourself for attempting the exact same thing.

Also you say only soldiers should be sold. Why?

Not exactly. I said selling the soldiers into slavery would have been at least one thing. For the record I'm strongly opposed to this entire proposal of yours but was attempting to play Devil's advocate.

As for why, I explained that quite well. The entire thing was that it was tied to them attacking you. They stop, you stop. While one could of course extend that into reprisals against their cities, as an analogue of strategic bombing, that's really splitting hairs on what I was saying. Namely that this slavery be tied to your actual self-preservation as opposed to a Final Solution to punish your enemies.

To be fair it'd be more like 98% since I want to spare Japan. Also the reason I'm leaning towards the machines instead of regular rumbling is because the machines will at least make sure to not destroy the eco system and other species.

Which doesn't affect my point at all.

No it is relavent because the whole reason I'm opening a portal to the machines is because Marley and the rest of the world is coming to genocide us, and this is given as an alternative to the rumbling which will send millions of giants to destroy the world and living things it would turn everything into a barren desert. If those nations did not plan to invade or genocide us then I would be against the rumbling and against opening a portal to the machines.

That's your excuse but if self-preservation was your primary concern you wouldn't condone harvesting people *after* they are no longer a threat. You wouldn't be inclined to cozy up with a race which has already wiped out humanity and turned it into a cattle race.

What you want is power to punish your enemies. That's the only thing that sounds genuine is when you're talking about punishing others. Your claims that you just want to genocide 98% of your planet's population but then you'll live in harmony in contrast sounds cartoonishly silly.

It's not more advantageous to keep them alive, in fact I'd like to ask you Mr. Robot to stop the battery farm idea because you don't need it our world unlike the Matrix world has a visible sun you can use solar power and we can just kill all the Marleyans to make sure they don't rise up in the future and genocide us.

1.) Yes, it was. Your entire plan was to enslave the Non-Eldia to sell to the Machines. To essentially farm them.

2.) In addition to proving you are untrust worthy you now want to try and weasel out of paying what you're owed to the Machines. All in order to destroy what the Machines value. Which will likely make them rethink this alliance, assuming they ever intended to honor it in the first place.

No 500 people from a post apocalpytic modern society is not enough to stop 1 million men.

It's 500 plus the upteched Eldia and I think you are underestimating what modern mobility and firepower can do. Your not fighting 1 million men. You are using your assets like helicopters to ferry small, hard hitting units to disrupt key segments of the larger advance.

Since you are familiar with Warhammer, fight like the Tau not the IG.

@King Arts
@Crom's Black Blade


What's the concencus on the NCR contribution?

The NCR was my second choice. My primary concerns was 1.) their price of 10 million gallons of water per year seemed steep to me. Admittedly I'm unused to waters in such quantities so I'm not absolute how truely large that is. 2.) Being in less desperate stakes than the Commonwealth, I felt there was a greater chance of them betraying me

 

[Husky_Khan]

For the Marleyans to bring their million person army into conquering Eldia they'll have to engage in a Normandy style cross channel invasion with a lesser technology base and less overall resources and then have to supply and sustain this force.

The Eldians meanwhile can win by achieving a military victory over the Capitol of the enemy. AFAIK the Eldians already won Battles over the Marleyan territory on their own.

With the addition of Vertibirds, Missile Launchers, artillery, automatic rifles, combat armor and even Heavy Troopers I'm actually intrigued at the potential of winning decisive military battles over enemy Capitols unless they want to draw back significant amount of forces to protect their lameass palaces or whatever.

Plus I'm not sure offhand the Eldian population but it's likely in the same ballpark as the NCR if not more. The water ration might even be less onerous after the first conquests of enemy Capitols. We can build up anti-Marleyan style forces who can join in our enterprise against Genocidal campaigns and the NCR will be available to invest and benefit off of access to this new world overseen by Eldia.

 

[King Arts]

Not at all. First it's merely a statement of fact and a fact does not have any political bias. A is A after all.

Second, the issue is not, as you allege, that you prioritize your group over another's. The issue is the dehumanization. That rather than treating Non-Eldia as individuals with equal right to live their life peacefully as the Eldia, you treat them as inferiors who can only exist at your whim. That turning them into vassal slaves is not objectionable or morally wrong because they are essentially aliens.

I am all for prioritizing the interests of one's own group over others. That's the entire backbone of America First after all, a government should reflect the interests and concerns of its people rather than, say, some global oligarchy. The issue is the particular interests you've chosen to prioritize and your either ignorance of their implication or your chilling indifference to them.

Third, my argument is rooted in uplifting the individual and inalienable rights. It is the very bedrock upon which any right of center argument could be forged. In contrast your argument is rooted in collectivism from singular Volk to guilt being tied to identity rather than actions which are all just warmed over flavors of Leftist thought.

No you are arguing for leftism. Individualism is a hallmark of liberalism. Before the 17th century most western nations 100% embraced collectivism you were part of your religion, tribe, village, or city for the rich Mediterranean Republics.
I also am not treating them as inferiors. I don't think Marley is inferior to Eldia except for the fact we can be Titans and they can't but that does not make one superior.
I'm not enslaving them because they are inferior but because they are a threat to me and mine. Again I don't think other people's children are inferior to my own, but I sure as hell would be willing to sacrafice others for my own. And if you aren't you are kinda a terrible parent.

Once again dehumanizing the "Other" into a single-minded, gestalt entity incapable of change. Condemning them for attempted genocide but applauding yourself for attempting the exact same thing.

I'm not dehumanizing them. They are humans who want to genocide my people. And don't blame me Attack on Titan is a world where racist ideology is true.

Not exactly. I said selling the soldiers into slavery would have been at least one thing. For the record I'm strongly opposed to this entire proposal of yours but was attempting to play Devil's advocate.

As for why, I explained that quite well. The entire thing was that it was tied to them attacking you. They stop, you stop. While one could of course extend that into reprisals against their cities, as an analogue of strategic bombing, that's really splitting hairs on what I was saying. Namely that this slavery be tied to your actual self-preservation as opposed to a Final Solution to punish your enemies.

But a final solution is self defense in attack on titan. Like if Eren did not stop at 80% but went on to kill everyone outside of Paradis then 100 years later a modern bomber would not have destroyed it. I would post more evidence but you did not respond to Mr. Gross and the dogs eating a girl.

Which doesn't affect my point at all.

Well I'd like you to be accurate it's not 99 it's 98.

That's your excuse but if self-preservation was your primary concern you wouldn't condone harvesting people *after* they are no longer a threat. You wouldn't be inclined to cozy up with a race which has already wiped out humanity and turned it into a cattle race.

What you want is power to punish your enemies. That's the only thing that sounds genuine is when you're talking about punishing others. Your claims that you just want to genocide 98% of your planet's population but then you'll live in harmony in contrast sounds cartoonishly silly.

No again, you keep dancing back and forth Mr. robot I think you are the untrustworthy one. I'm willing to abide by the agreement I made with you to save my people. I'm just telling you that if you want you could switch to solar power instead of human bioeletcricity.

1.) Yes, it was. Your entire plan was to enslave the Non-Eldia to sell to the Machines. To essentially farm them.

2.) In addition to proving you are untrust worthy you now want to try and weasel out of paying what you're owed to the Machines. All in order to destroy what the Machines value. Which will likely make them rethink this alliance, assuming they ever intended to honor it in the first place.

Again look to what I said above Mr. Robot I'm telling you that I will abide by the terms to sacrafice non Eldians except Japanese to save the Eldian people but you have the ability to change the deal and make it so that you don't need those non Eldians since the sun is available here unlike your homeworld.

It's 500 plus the upteched Eldia and I think you are underestimating what modern mobility and firepower can do. Your not fighting 1 million men. You are using your assets like helicopters to ferry small, hard hitting units to disrupt key segments of the larger advance.

Since you are familiar with Warhammer, fight like the Tau not the IG.

Again the quality advantage is not that much. The modern forces with helicopters don't have enough missles and guns to wipe out 1 million men.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

No you are arguing for leftism. Individualism is a hallmark of liberalism

Okay...well I think this conversation has continued far enough. I don't see anything productive coming from this. Have a nice day, King Arts.

 

[King Arts]

Okay...well I think this conversation has continued far enough. I don't see anything productive coming from this. Have a nice day, King Arts.

I mean it is

Individualism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Individualists are chiefly concerned with protecting individual autonomy against obligations imposed by social institutions (such as the state or religious morality). For L. Susan Brown, "Liberalism and anarchism are two political philosophies that are fundamentally concerned with individual freedom yet differ from one another in very distinct ways. Anarchism shares with liberalism a radical commitment to individual freedom while rejecting liberalism's competitive property relations."

But if you want to stop arguing it’s your choice have a nice day as well.