ASOIAF/GOT What If? Tytos Lannister actually had/grew a spine alongside good sense?

CarlManvers2019

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Basically, what if Tytos Lannister, the father of Tywin Lannister

A public whore-lover, a guy disrespected and too submissive to his subordinate nobility but sorta nice

Actually had a spine or told off and made guys like the Reyne-Tarbeck’s pay their debts before it was too late?

Would Tywin be like he was in canon without maybe consciously trying to make up for his father? Probably gonna tell Walder Frey off in-regards to marrying Genna Lannister off
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
Basically, what if Tytos Lannister, the father of Tywin Lannister

A public whore-lover, a guy disrespected and too submissive to his subordinate nobility but sorta nice

Actually had a spine or told off and made guys like the Reyne-Tarbeck’s pay their debts before it was too late?

Would Tywin be like he was in canon without maybe consciously trying to make up for his father? Probably gonna tell Walder Frey off in-regards to marrying Genna Lannister off
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He'd essentially be like his son Tywin but before he lost Joanna and lost his humanity. Though I feel like he'd resemble something in between Gerion and Tywin's other brother Kevan. Kevan Lannister is Tywin's right hand man and seems like a stand up fellow when compared to his brother since he's nicer and more respectful to Tyrion. Though someone like Gerion was certainly more joyful and affable. Tytos can keep his genial nature while still being a shrewd and effective ruler. The problem with him was that he was a pushover and let all his vassals walk all over him.

Maybe he grows a spine and somehow realizes his faults when he goes to collect his debts, and all the Lannister Vassals start laughing at him. This would essentially garner him the respect of his son Tywin since his father realized his mistake and is no longer allowing himself to bring further ruin to House Lannister. Though a team up between Tywin and Tytos will be interesting. It might evolve into a good cop bad cop scenario in which Tytos appears as a genial and diplomatic Lord trying to maintain peace while Tywin is his hammer and iron fist who he uses to lay down the law upon his rebellious vassals. Tywin also being more influenced by his father might temper his wroth as well.
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
Maybe Tywin realizes or admits that "Tywin Lannister shits gold" is actually pretty funny. May help that unlike the show, book version isn't having an impending financial crisis.
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The show financial crisis thingy is completely ridiculous. The Lannisters have had that mine working for thousands of years. Its the single source of their strength. If news that the Lannisters no longer shit gold spread it would embolden more of their enemies to openly conspire against them. This would also cause the Lannister to panic as their many expensive wars would likely deplete whatever gold reserves they stored up just like how the many wars in Europe depleted the Spanish Treasury (ie 80 years War against the Dutch and the 30 years war). This was something that D and D pulled out of nowhere. Honestly Season 4 was the peak of GOT, but also the beginning of the end in terms of its quality with things like Tysha not being mentioned at all. This was a major part of Tyrion's and Tywin's character arcs.
 
The Lannister's gold running dry was(at least in my very charitable attitude to the show in general) narrative shorthand for elaborating on/foreshadowing the Lannister's doom. Basically a way of saying "we are about to crash land and we need to soften the landing now", of course that shorthand was undercut with Cersei lasting as long as she did and the Westermen apparently all folding into the redcloak armies of the later seasons. But I can understand what the notion was trying to convey.

Honestly if Tytos had as much spine as say Robert or Ned, you'd never have canon Tywin. Tywin's ruthlessness, his brutality, his coldness, his constant desire to ensure Lannister pride either wasn't slighted or it was-somebody payed, was forged from Tytos ineptitude and doormat tendencies.

It's important to remember Tywin was a boy younger than twelve and he saw his dad constantly laughed at, humiliated, mocked, giving in to everyone who tried to take advantage of him, his own younger sister sold off in marriage to a Frey-and not even the heir of the twins at that but someone far down the line of succession.

Tywin the ruthless pride obsessed monster was forged in the days of a father who was utterly unable to protect the family, a living doormat.
 
Lord Invictus said:
Tywin the ruthless pride obsessed monster was forged in the days of a father who was utterly unable to protect the family, a living doormat.
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He essentially sorta overcompensates for his fathers weakness

Why use diplomacy or even ask questions first when you can offer extreme brutality
 
He told his children such wonderful lessons as "love won't warm your hearth or buy you a horse", "men don't cry"(spoken to Jaimie), and "men are never free".

No wonder his kids are all so screwed up. But his cold hardass routine comes from having a father who was affectionate but also basically a total weakling.

There's also some obvious deep seated sexual insecurities-the way he treated his father's mistress would be a gold mine if Freud had him on the couch. Tywin at some subconscious level probably sees himself as weaker, more impotent or ineffectual than the man he presents publicly-that's why he reacts so viciously to any attack on House Lannister real or perceived, because it threatens to reveal his own feared weakness.

That's not to say he's a joke, or totally incompetent as some in the fandom have swung. He is Tywin Lannister, the most powerful and feared lord in the realm, an able and effective administrator, the man who brought peace and order back to the west, without Tywin there would not have been the stability during most of Aerys reign, without Tywin-pretty much no one could have reigned in Joffrey, and his death was basically the death knell for Lannister supremacy in Westeros.
 
Tywin's whore habit strikes me as something he sees as a shameful weakness. He takes pleasure in having sex with prostitutes, but being image obsessed would not dare let that become public knowledge.
 
Lord Invictus said:
Tywin's whore habit strikes me as something he sees as a shameful weakness. He takes pleasure in having sex with prostitutes, but being image obsessed would not dare let that become public knowledge.
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I’m gonna have to guess even at Casterly Rock, he has whores sent through secret passages
 
Lord Invictus said:
Probably, or through some sort of elevator system.

Its possible he might have sired a few bastards-personally I think Marei at Chataya's brothel is his.
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Hard to remember all the minor characters, but I can see a man his age having a lot of bastards he never met
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
Hard to remember all the minor characters, but I can see a man his age having a lot of bastards he never met
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I don't imagine Tywin gives any money or gifts even discretely to his bastards, both because that would admit he has them and run risk of discovery.

Which is terrible for Marei(if she is his that is)-in theory she could be living the lifestyle of say Joy Hill, and not be working as a prostitute herself.
 
Lord Invictus said:
I don't imagine Tywin gives any money or gifts even discretely to his bastards, both because that would admit he has them and run risk of discovery.

Which is terrible for Marei(if she is his that is)-in theory she could be living the lifestyle of say Joy Hill, and not be working as a prostitute herself.
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Or Cersei has her killed or sold of to slavers
 
CarlManvers2019 said:
Or Cersei has her killed or sold of to slavers
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If we are imagining Tywin as a radically different man-who acknowledged he sired a bastard girl, he would make sure Cersei didn't dare touch her. Though Cersei would likely have an utter breakdown at having a bastard half sibling-it would probably overload her pride and self absorption. That's why I said in theory.
 
Lord Invictus said:
If we are imagining Tywin as a radically different man-who acknowledged he sired a bastard girl, he would make sure Cersei didn't dare touch her. Though Cersei would likely have an utter breakdown at having a bastard half sibling-it would probably overload her pride and self absorption. That's why I said in theory.
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Okay

Say, since you know the Lannisters so well, care to tell how this would end up going


Yes, it’s absurd, but even that stuff can sorta be taken seriously
 
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