Warhammer 40K What if the Emperor ordered Chapters to build up their size?

[Tyzuris]

So basically in Text to Speech Device the Emperor was impressed at the Black Templars so called ''legion building'' and size of 6500 Astartes and sent out orders for other Chapters to do the same.

So basically assume that the Emperor overrides Guilliman's Codex Astartes limits and sets out a new standard for each Chapter to grow into.

There will be 81 line companies divided into three divisions of three regiments of three battalions of three companies of three platoons.

Each line company will consist of 120 Tactical / Intercessor Astartes + Devastator / Fire support Astartes and outside of the 120 count will be the HQ.

So assume there will be something like 7290 Tactical / Intercessor Astartes and 2430 fire support Astartes.

Then each Chapter will have a division of around 2500 Assault / Inceptor Astartes. And 1500 Veterans and 1500 Scouts / Vanguard Astartes.

So overall strength of 15000 Line Marines + Techmarines + Vehicle crew + Apothecharies + Librarians, Command force, etc...

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Assume also that each Chapter is also supplied more ships to transport said Astartes so that a normal chapter fleet is 50-75 strike cruisers and battle barges and about thrice that in escorts.


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How will this affect the military balance of the 40k Galaxy?

 

[bintananth]

So basically in Text to Speech Device the Emperor was impressed at the Black Templars so called ''legion building'' and size of 6500 Astartes and sent out orders for other Chapters to do the same.

So basically assume that the Emperor overrides Guilliman's Codex Astartes limits and sets out a new standard for each Chapter to grow into.

There will be 81 line companies divided into three divisions of three regiments of three battalions of three companies of three platoons.

Each line company will consist of 120 Tactical / Intercessor Astartes + Devastator / Fire support Astartes and outside of the 120 count will be the HQ.

So assume there will be something like 7290 Tactical / Intercessor Astartes and 2430 fire support Astartes.

Then each Chapter will have a division of around 2500 Assault / Inceptor Astartes. And 1500 Veterans and 1500 Scouts / Vanguard Astartes.

So overall strength of 15000 Line Marines + Techmarines + Vehicle crew + Apothecharies + Librarians, Command force, etc...

-------------------------------------------------------

Assume also that each Chapter is also supplied more ships to transport said Astartes so that a normal chapter fleet is 50-75 strike cruisers and battle barges and about thrice that in escorts.


-------------------------------------------------------

How will this affect the military balance of the 40k Galaxy?

Things will be even more of a clusterfuck than they already are because there won't be enough officers to keep track of what's going on.

US Army platoons top out at around 50 people for a reason and historically the good militaries kept small units lead by a junior officer to about half that size.

 

[Battlegrinder]

On a tactical level, not much happens. Chapters typically deploy their forces in in company strength formations, marginly larger companies won't turn the tide wars that would have otherwise been lost.

Strategically, this will help a lot if most chapters can reach this size. This will mean more marines are available to assist in other warzones, and the rare times when full chapters take to the field will have a far larger force of Astartes deployed, and likely a better coordinated one since it's all one chapter instead of the hodgepodge multi chapter joint commands that sometimes don't work together very well.

That said, I should raise few points here, that seem to stem from misunderstanding how the templars are organized. The Templars have a lot of marines, yes, however those marines are still broken up and scattered throughout the crusade fleets and operate as independent forces, they don't have thousands of marines in any one place at the same time.

Each line company will consist of 120 Tactical / Intercessor Astartes + Devastator / Fire support Astartes and outside of the 120 count will be the HQ.

This doesn't work as a marine formation. Marine tactics are built around a trinity of fire support, battleline, and close support sqauds supporting on another. You've stripped out the close support elements and created an incomplete formation.

Then each Chapter will have a division of around 2500 Assault / Inceptor Astartes.

This is also shaky, though not quite as bad as the company thing, some chapters did operate entire battle companies of assault marines after all. However, lumping all the close support sqauds into a single division rather than assigning them to particular companies is still a bad organizational system.

And 1500 Veterans and 1500 Scouts / Vanguard Astartes.

Scouts and vanguard marines are not the same thing. Scouts are novice marines in training who act as recon elements. Vanguard marines are fully trained marines geared up to operate as part of a larger force doing covert ops, rear area infiltration and sabotage, etc. They perform a different tactical role to Scouts. Scouts are a recon element attached to a larger company to support that company, vanguard marines are a company in of themselves operating independently from a larger force.

Things will be even more of a clusterfuck than they already are because there won't be enough officers to keep track of what's going on.

US Army platoons top out at around 50 people for a reason and historically the good militaries kept small units lead by a junior officer to about half that size.

Eh, not really? Remember, the standard formation for marines is a company, the full chapter rarely mobilizes all at once. And a marine company is if anything officer heavy.

Each of the ten squads has a sergeant, who's at minimum a veteran of centuries of warfare, and he might actually be an elite veteran from first company that's rotated back to the company to lead his experience to the men. Above them are the lieutenants that lead each of the two 50 man demi-companies that make up the company, and then above them is the captain. There's also at least one chaplain and one librarian per company, both of whom are also capable of commanding the formation if needed.

 

[Tyzuris]

This doesn't work as a marine formation. Marine tactics are built around a trinity of fire support, battleline, and close support sqauds supporting on another. You've stripped out the close support elements and created an incomplete formation.

That's how a battalion was organized in the Legions back then.

A Space Marine battalion would nominally be 500 Marines divided into 5 companies. The first one was veteran company, the second to fourth were battleline and fire support and fifth was assault and reconnaissance marines. Which makes sense considering Assault Marines are equivalent to paratroopers of today and we don't mix squads of paratroopers into infantry companies, but rather have parachute formations be their own specialist formations used for certain tasks who then support other formations as need arises.

 

[Battlegrinder]

That's how a battalion was organized in the Legions back then.

The issue is that modern chapters don't fight like legions, so reverting to legion formations wouldn't work. Even chapters like the Dark Angels and Black Templars, which ignore or creatively reinterpret the codex's commands regarding chapter size, still organize thier individuals companies roughly in line with the codex's teachings for practical reasons.

Which makes sense considering Assault Marines are equivalent to paratroopers of today and we don't mix squads of paratroopers into infantry companies, but rather have parachute formations be their own specialist formations used for certain tasks who then support other formations as need arises.

All space marines are paratroopers or capable of acting as such, given the existence of drop pods and similar equipment. Assault marine jump packs are first and foremost a tool for moving about the battlefield and into melee combat, the fact that they can get marines into combat is just a bonus.

 

[UberIguana]

The big question is how the Imperium is going to pay for this expansion. It's already being pressed hard on all fronts and is struggling to respond with its current resources. 10 times as many astartes means significantly less of something else. It might be more manageable if they keep the existing fleet size and deploy battalion sized forces on strike cruisers and a small brigade on their main battlebarge(s).

Or they could go back to what was originally intended by the splitting of the legions into chapters. The chapters fight as legions (which may now be arranged in division size), but remain separate during downtime or (relatively) low intensity conflict. That way they maintain a degree of cultural difference within the legion, slowing the spread of corruption so it can be spotted by those with an outside perspective when they reunite for the next big battle.

 

[Tyzuris]

The big question is how the Imperium is going to pay for this expansion. It's already being pressed hard on all fronts and is struggling to respond with its current resources. 10 times as many astartes means significantly less of something else. It might be more manageable if they keep the existing fleet size and deploy battalion sized forces on strike cruisers and a small brigade on their main battlebarge(s).

The Imperium already has enough gene-seed reserves to create millions of new Astartes. The only reason the current number is the cap is a political one.

Alone among the High Lords, Lamma was a representative of the real power behind the Houses, the vast and bloated mutant who occupied the Paternoval Palace of the warp scryers. I liked her too – as a servant like me, albeit an exalted one, she had retained some sense of proportion in life. ‘How many times have we seen the Lex bind our hands, when the Enemy has no law at all? We have held back from creating thousands more Chapters because we are held in thrall by the Lord Commander’s ancient doctrine. I say the day has long since passed for this. Let us unleash the Ten Thousand. Let us unlock the gene-labs and create new Space Marines to serve under our direct command. Let us re-form the Imperial Army, arm the Ecclesiarchy and end these divisions that cripple us.’

Source: The Emperor's Legion book.

 

[Tyzuris]

All space marines are paratroopers or capable of acting as such, given the existence of drop pods and similar equipment. Assault marine jump packs are first and foremost a tool for moving about the battlefield and into melee combat, the fact that they can get marines into combat is just a bonus.

I don't see why Space Marines should rely on so heavily on melee that they need melee units attached to their infantry companies. Shooting someone a few hundred meters away with a bolter is much more efficient and safe than haphazardly going for glorious melee combat.

 

[Battlegrinder]

I don't see why Space Marines should rely on so heavily on melee that they need melee units attached to their infantry companies. Shooting someone a few hundred meters away with a bolter is much more efficient and safe than haphazardly going for glorious melee combat.

40k doesn't always make perfect sense, but I'd note that if it doesn't make sense to have melee units as a part of a standard battle company, it makes even less sense to have them as part of a dedicated melee company devoted to nothing but melee combat.

And given that 40k has repeatedly and explicted established the importance of melee forces by making them a major part of every military force in the setting (bar one, who's feeble hand to hand perform is a major weakness of the faction), it seems unwise to just assert that everyone is crazy and actually guns are the best.

 

[Tyzuris]

40k doesn't always make perfect sense, but I'd note that if it doesn't make sense to have melee units as a part of a standard battle company, it makes even less sense to have them as part of a dedicated melee company devoted to nothing but melee combat.

I would reinvent the assault forces into basically what paratroopers are today. Basically in battle, they'd be the first to drop from Thunderhawks to secure sites for fire support and battleline units and also be dropped behind enemy lines for recon and offensive guerilla style action. Basically no specialization in melee but basically every Astartes would still be trained in melee, but no specific melee units would be involved.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

And then there's the Space Wolves...who decided to use the Codex to start the fires in the stills they use to manufacture Mjod. Mjod, the only substance that can actually get a Space Marine drunk.

Luv me some Wolves!

 

[bintananth]

One question I've got. How large is a Company of Space Marines?

That's something I've never been clear about.

 

[Battlegrinder]

One question I've got. How large is a Company of Space Marines?

That's something I've never been clear about.

Traditionally, it's 100 marines. 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads, 2 assault squads. The command squad, apothecaries, librarians, techmarines, etc are not counted as part of that number, nor are any attached supporting elements from the first or tenth companies.

 

[bintananth]

Traditionally, it's 100 marines. 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads, 2 assault squads. The command squad, apothecaries, librarians, techmarines, etc are not counted as part of that number, nor are any attached supporting elements from the first or tenth companies.

So, roughly 10 Space Marines per squad and they're kept in separate units from their support?

That seems way too divided up into specialties and without enough vital rear echelon support.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

The Codex is dumb. You're not wrong.

 

[bintananth]

The Codex is dumb. You're not wrong.

I was thinking that rear support should outnumber the front line by at least 10:1 because, if it wasn't for the ones in the rear, the ones using the spear wouldn't have a spear.

 

[Battlegrinder]

So, roughly 10 Space Marines per squad and they're kept in separate units from their support?

That seems way too divided up into specialties and without enough vital rear echelon support.

I was thinking that rear support should outnumber the front line by at least 10:1 because, if it wasn't for the ones in the rear, the ones using the spear wouldn't have a spear.

Marines have logistical personal, called chapter serfs. They're a bunch of regular humans that tag along and do all the non combat stuff. And servators, wouldn't be 40k without them. But they're strictly noncombatants so 40k works don't go into a lot of detail about them, because 40k is about the fighting part. And also no one wants to read about life of serf genericus, who spent 90 years making a half dozen vengeance bolts, died, and has his remains stuffed into an anti-aircraft missile.*

I'd also note marines don't usual do "rear areas" in the way you're thinking, the marines deploy from thier ships, go blow stuff up, and the go back to the ship to prepare for the next mission, and then either onto the next warzone or back to the fortress monastery.




*Absolutely none of that is exaggerated.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

@Battlegrinder has it right. The only 'rear area' that Space Marines maintain themselves is the training cadre for the newly 'minted' Marines.

 

[bintananth]

@Battlegrinder has it right. The only 'rear area' that Space Marines maintain themselves is the training cadre for the newly 'minted' Marines.

That makes a lot more sense than what I visualized.

I've always thought of a Marine chapter as a self-contained army that included not the just the "tip of the spear" but the entire shaft as well right down to the little kids doing little kid things meant to prepare them for life as a Space Marine when they grow up.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

I've always thought of a Marine chapter as a self-contained army that included not the just the "tip of the spear" but the entire shaft as well right down to the little kids doing little kid things meant to prepare them for life as a Space Marine when they grow up.

That's true to a degree, b/c each Chapter controls everything that directly supports them, sometimes even to the manufactorums that provide equipment and ammo. However, as a percentage, very few of the total personnel in all that are Space Marines.