What if Canada joined the American Revolution?

Wolf of Arrakis

Active member
What if instead of remaining loyal to the British Crown during the American Revolution the British North American colonies in what is now Canada joined the Thirteen Colonies in rebellion? How would this change the course of the Revolution? How would British war plans change because of this? What are possible repercussions?
 

Buba

A total creep
That would be the Maritimes.
Canada proper would not rebel as the 13 Colonies were rabidly anti-Catholic. Maybe it'd revolt later, if incentivated by the French Crown.
Changing the course - look into a history book and check the role of Halifax.
 
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Skallagrim

Well-known member
I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that the whole premise is pretty tricky to actually get going. In most cases, you'd have to create ATL revolutionary movements in those regions out of thin air. Ironically, even though they were at odds with the colonies, the Quebecois were most inclined to go along with any revolt, out of all the "Canadian" (in the modern sense) colonies. That is to say: there actually were some Quebecois revolutionaries. Presumably because they figured that independence would be an option.

Anyway, supposing this all happens because of some reason, the results are pretty interesting. Losing the Maritimes (Halifax!) and Quebec (Montréal!) means the Brits have about zero reasons left to hold on to Labrador, Newfoundland and Rupert's Land. With no decent ports, those regions are just not going to be worth exploiting. Presumably, they'll offload these regions onto the USA, in return for great peace terms. In practice, that will mean that the USA will promise not to be dickish to ex-Loyalists, will enter into favourable(-to-Britain) trade deals with Britain (as in: private British interests will maintain all their holdings in North America and will not be hindered in their economic undertakings).

It's even possible that the USA might be compelled to explicitly agree to not side against Britain in any European conflicts. (Washington, Franklin et al. wanted to stay out of Euro-wars anyway, and Britain would want to avoid a hostile North America in case of an Atlantic naval war with France -- primarily because such a hostile America could provide harbour to French ships.)

This means better Anglo-American relations, ironically. You have a peace deal where the USA gets more than it ever dreamed of, where good relations with Britain become a fait accompli right away, and which leaves way more loyalists within the USA. Those loyalists will vote, and they'll vote for the pro-British factions. (So... Federalists will benefit.) There will be substantially more trade with Britain as well, so Jefferson can basically suck it: the Francophile faction won't ever get in power here.

Not that relations with France will initially be bad. Quebec will get its independence, and may even try to get annexed by France. (I expect France will say no. Quebec would be a fucking money-sink, and France infamously had no money at this junction.) But we must recall, Quebec was pretty conservative. So ironically, when/if the French revolution happens, Quebec will tend towards the monarchist side. So both the USA and Quebec will be generally aligned with Britain, and against France.

Just to clarify, Quebec will NOT be the area covered in the Quebec Act, of course. Quebec will have the southern border of pre-1774 Quebec. Most likely, it'll keep its direct Western gains, though. So it'll be bordering Rupert's Land. The area South of Quebec and Rupert's Land but North of the Great Lakes will become the State of Canada. To visualise the situation, see this map:

British_colonies_1763-76_shepherd1923.PNG


The USA in general is now 'pointed' North-West. The Federal Capital will almost inevitably become New York. Southern cities can forget about that, here. (Probably no debt assumption, either. Virginia won't fail to notice that it's definitely playing second -- of not third -- fiddle now, so it's not going to play ball.)

One thing the South will want is "more South". It happens that the Federalists (the party of "standing armies are cool, actually") agreed in OTL. And in this ATL, there are way more Federalists, and there's probably a stronger navy and a bit more of an army. So once Britain and France start fighting, there will be an opportunity for land-grabbing. I'm assuming that a French revolution still happens, but even if not, Anglo-French conflict is still extremely likely. Spain is tied to France. Spain has land next door to the USA. The USA will side with Britain. So... land-grab time.

I expect the USA to gain Louisiana and Florida not by purchase and diplomacy, but by walking in and claiming the lot. Depending on just how successful the Federalist push for a real military ended up being, there may also be some Caribbean real estate getting annexed. That's more of a long shot, though.

This will probably be the last real land-grab, though. After this, it'll become too obvious that further expansion will favour the slave power, which the North doesn't like. And there is more North in this ATL. Since the USA basically has all of Oregon Country already, without it ever being an issue, gaining more land from Mexico will be relatively uninteresting. Also: Federalist-style policies will be more popular, and those favour industry over agrarianism. This USA will have land enough. It's economic expansion will be more of an urbanisation than a major land-grab like the Mexican Purchase. I don't think even Texas will be tempting enough. (Especially not if the slave power already got some Caribbean slave states earlier.)

Regarding slavery: I expect the North will be able (and willing) to force it to be formally contained much earlier. Ohio Country will be free soil, no doubt. West of the Mississippi, they may just go back to the Mason-Dixon line, and extend that to the USA's Western border. With further expansion off the table, that'll essentially "solve" the slavery issue for a long time. There will be a bloc of slave states, but they won't be expanding, and they'll never get anything like the Taney Court, so no moving slaves into (or even through) free states.

Eventually, there will still be a clash over the issue. The proximate causes will be different, though.
 

Buba

A total creep
the Brits have about zero reasons left to hold on to Labrador, Newfoundland and Rupert's Land
You missed two significant reasons - fish (look at France holding on St.Pierre and Miquelon) and furs, which add up to the most important reason of all - profit!
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
You missed two significant reasons - fish (look at France holding on St.Pierre and Miquelon) and furs, which add up to the most important reason of all - profit!
It's way easier to pawn the land off to the USA and get your fishing rights (as well as other exploitation rights) secured by treaty. Then it's their land and their headache, but you have economic access.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Provided you can trust the US to keep their word. Which could be a concern in London.
It's a reasonable point to keep in mind, of course. The key thing would be to get financial interdepedency well and set up. Most specifically: have the USA open up a line of credit in London. That's part of why Hamilton wanted the USA to have a public debt (and part of why Jefferson hated the idea): besides the money being used for 'internal improvements', they'd be borrowing it from Britain. Thus tying the USA to British finance. That would go a long way to making a future war less likely.

The basic idea was to turn the USA into a British ally and trade partner. In OTL, the USA was never quite that into it, but Britain was certainly open to the prospect. The Peace of Dives, if you will.
 

lordhen

Well-known member
What if instead of remaining loyal to the British Crown during the American Revolution the British North American colonies in what is now Canada joined the Thirteen Colonies in rebellion? How would this change the course of the Revolution? How would British war plans change because of this? What are possible repercussions?

Would we see Quebec become French.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Would we see Quebec become French.
This is a possibility. Either that or independence or even better than OTL terms from Great Britain.
IMO all the above are more likely than Canada joining the intolerant anti-Catholics down south.
The Québécois -- or at least some segment of the population -- would presumably have a desire to be "truly" French again. But there would also be a republican/independence movement, no doubt.

The USA would not want these Francophone Catholics, to be sure, but would prefer them to form an independent-but-allied republic.

Britain would be very much against renewed French colonialism in North America. Even though the USA would not feel that way per se (since France helped in the war), the desire for a good peace treaty -- and future good relations -- with Britain would certainly lead the USA to side against the idea of France getting its colony back.

Finally, France itself wouldn't want the colony back, because it had been a money sink, and France was terribly in debt by this point.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Had Quebec the population in that time to be a self sustaining independent republic.
As long as they're not suffering some trade embargo, this simply doesn't matter. If they had to make it in an otherwise empty world, they might be in trouble (but even then, humans adapt rapidly). But in a firm alliance with the USA, presumably following the USA into good trade relations with Britain, and almost certainly enjoying good trade relations with France... why wouldn't they be able to thrive?

The only real risk of a very low population is that the neighbours may decide to just march in. But we've established that the neighbours don't want Quebec.
 

Buba

A total creep
The only real risk of a very low population is that the neighbours may decide to just march in. But we've established that the neighbours don't want Quebec.
GASP!
Where's the love?!? Where's the love?!?
:)
You've reminded me of the Monty Python sketch about alternative names for Belgium ...

I'd imagine that ITTL Canada would be OTL Quebec+Ontario.

The population indeed is "big enough" - c.100K - and doubling every 20 years ... if they don't slow down (e.g. through historical emigration to USA) this TL's Canada would match the population of early XXth century OTL Dominion of Canada on its lonesome :)
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
GASP!
Where's the love?!? Where's the love?!?
:)
You've reminded me of the Monty Python sketch about alternative names for Belgium ...

I'd imagine that ITTL Canada would be OTL Quebec+Ontario.

The population indeed is "big enough" - c.100K - and doubling every 20 years ... if they don't slow down (e.g. through historical emigration to USA) this TL's Canada would match the population of early XXth century OTL Dominion of Canada on its lonesome :)
It's a viable country, for sure. Even though the most populated regions of OTL Ontario (meaning Southern Ontario + a strip along the Great Lakes coast including all things below the Lake Nipissing - Lake Nipigon line) would certainly go to the USA in this scenario.

In fact, if Britain absolutely insists, it could turn Quebec (which included Labrador at this time, too) + Hudson Bay Territory + Newfoundland into a viable colony, even without the rest of British North America. The reason they don't want that is because it would be an overwhelmingly French colony, getting more and more French with every passing year. And with a now-established independence movement, it would just be a big can of worms. Constant political trouble, and in the end, there's a good chance anything you invest in it will be lost if/when they do finally break away.
 

stevep

Well-known member
It's a viable country, for sure. Even though the most populated regions of OTL Ontario (meaning Southern Ontario + a strip along the Great Lakes coast including all things below the Lake Nipissing - Lake Nipigon line) would certainly go to the USA in this scenario.

In fact, if Britain absolutely insists, it could turn Quebec (which included Labrador at this time, too) + Hudson Bay Territory + Newfoundland into a viable colony, even without the rest of British North America. The reason they don't want that is because it would be an overwhelmingly French colony, getting more and more French with every passing year. And with a now-established independence movement, it would just be a big can of worms. Constant political trouble, and in the end, there's a good chance anything you invest in it will be lost if/when they do finally break away.

Dubious about the US getting OTL southern Ontario. They were lucky enough to get the old NW terrotory OTL which had been part of the Quebec colony after 1763 and was mainly influenced by fur traders from Montreal. I could see them getting the OTL borders because without a great power supporter Quebec would be a lot more vulnerable but I doubt they would gain territory north of the Great Lakes initially.

Very likely to see them seeking it later due to the level of land greed that fueled the western expansion OTL and without a great power protector they would very likely take it. Absorbing the entire Quebec region might take longer but again without a powerful patron Quebec is a less populous and weaker Mexico. The neighbours don't want the French Canadians but then they didn't want Indians either. Their land is a different matter.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Had Quebec the population in that time to be a self sustaining independent republic.

Not really in the short term. Also the population was socially pretty conservative by most reports. As such and also with the desire for protection I would expect them to want to return to French rule if Britain was driven out. Whether French pride would be less powerful than French need for domestic economy is a matter for Paris but after a long and costly war I could see Louis XVI arguing for regaining such a large colony no matter what his ministers say.

Of course assuming the French economic problems still lead to a successful revolution everything is in flux. Quebec wouldn't welcome the republic, especially with the extremes it went to. It might gain a significant influx of royalists and possibly even become the seat of whoever's the French king in exile - although I suspect the latter is more likely to stay in Britain once republican armies spread across the continent [assuming that happens] as he's nearer the centre of action.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Dubious about the US getting OTL southern Ontario. They were lucky enough to get the old NW terrotory OTL which had been part of the Quebec colony after 1763 and was mainly influenced by fur traders from Montreal. I could see them getting the OTL borders because without a great power supporter Quebec would be a lot more vulnerable but I doubt they would gain territory north of the Great Lakes initially.
I must argue the contrary: the Americans were decidedly unlucky, because events just so happened to transpire that they missed an opportunity to get the Nipissing line as the border. Franklin was pushing for that border in July '82. Britain was willing to concede. Lord Shelburne had come around to the reality of American independence, and resolved that peace should be concluded quickly, then. ("By showering the Americans with concessions he hoped to cause France, Spain, and the Netherlands to face the necessity of making peace on reasonable terms lest America make a separate peace, thereby freeing tens of thousands of British troops for military operations against the West Indies," writes Dull, in A Diplomatic History of the American Revolution.)

At this stage, Franklin had offered a list of 'necessary' and 'advisable' articles for a peace treaty to British peace commissioner Richard Oswald, and had included a border demand in the former category. The demand was clear enough: that Canada (meaning Quebec) be limited to the territorial limits Britain had established by royal proclamation in 1763. You may see my map, in post #3, where "Province of Quebec, 1763" is marked. That was to be the border. Without hesitation, Shelburne instructed Oswald that if the Americans would drop all the 'advisable' articles, Britain would agree to the 'necessary' ones without objection. That would give the USA all of what we now call Southern Ontario. The Cabinet agreed to this. (As late as August 29, a minute of the Cabinet outright states: "We will settle the Boundaries of the Province and Contract the Limits of Canada as desir'd by Dr. Franklin.")

However, the USA -- unaware that Britain was willing to go so far -- interrupted the negotiation process, delayed peace, and lost a chance to get the Nipissing border.

All this is to show: it was very much on the table, even in OTL.

Now, we are discussing a scenario wherein the Maritimes and Quebec are joining the struggle for independence. Britain has little incentive left to hold on to the interior. The primary route West was via the Great Lakes. Those are now encircled by the USA. The St. Lawrence is in the hands of Quebec. As such, "who gets the Ontario country" is a matter between the USA and Quebec. I don't see Quebec winning that one.

Agree.
What for? The US has the Ohio Valley and other sunny areas.
Exclusive control over the Great Lakes = "the interior is now ours, thanks". That's the primary motivation.

It's for this reason that I can easily see Britain throwing the Hudson Bay Territory and Newfoundland in as well, just to get better terms in other regards. Even if that doesn't happen, the USA will get it later.

Very likely to see them seeking it later due to the level of land greed that fueled the western expansion OTL and without a great power protector they would very likely take it. Absorbing the entire Quebec region might take longer but again without a powerful patron Quebec is a less populous and weaker Mexico. The neighbours don't want the French Canadians but then they didn't want Indians either. Their land is a different matter.
I'm not sure the USA would seek to absorb Quebec proper. They'd move into "Hudsonia" for sure, blocking Quebec from the Hudson Bay completely, but it's pretty plausible that they'd keep Quebec as a vassal state instead of annexing it. There's plenty of land out West. (Especially if the British-allied USA later takes the Lousisiana Country of France/Spain, as I expect will happen.)
 

stevep

Well-known member
I must argue the contrary: the Americans were decidedly unlucky, because events just so happened to transpire that they missed an opportunity to get the Nipissing line as the border. Franklin was pushing for that border in July '82. Britain was willing to concede. Lord Shelburne had come around to the reality of American independence, and resolved that peace should be concluded quickly, then. ("By showering the Americans with concessions he hoped to cause France, Spain, and the Netherlands to face the necessity of making peace on reasonable terms lest America make a separate peace, thereby freeing tens of thousands of British troops for military operations against the West Indies," writes Dull, in A Diplomatic History of the American Revolution.)

At this stage, Franklin had offered a list of 'necessary' and 'advisable' articles for a peace treaty to British peace commissioner Richard Oswald, and had included a border demand in the former category. The demand was clear enough: that Canada (meaning Quebec) be limited to the territorial limits Britain had established by royal proclamation in 1763. You may see my map, in post #3, where "Province of Quebec, 1763" is marked. That was to be the border. Without hesitation, Shelburne instructed Oswald that if the Americans would drop all the 'advisable' articles, Britain would agree to the 'necessary' ones without objection. That would give the USA all of what we now call Southern Ontario. The Cabinet agreed to this. (As late as August 29, a minute of the Cabinet outright states: "We will settle the Boundaries of the Province and Contract the Limits of Canada as desir'd by Dr. Franklin.")

However, the USA -- unaware that Britain was willing to go so far -- interrupted the negotiation process, delayed peace, and lost a chance to get the Nipissing border.

All this is to show: it was very much on the table, even in OTL.

Now, we are discussing a scenario wherein the Maritimes and Quebec are joining the struggle for independence. Britain has little incentive left to hold on to the interior. The primary route West was via the Great Lakes. Those are now encircled by the USA. The St. Lawrence is in the hands of Quebec. As such, "who gets the Ontario country" is a matter between the USA and Quebec. I don't see Quebec winning that one.


Exclusive control over the Great Lakes = "the interior is now ours, thanks". That's the primary motivation.

It's for this reason that I can easily see Britain throwing the Hudson Bay Territory and Newfoundland in as well, just to get better terms in other regards. Even if that doesn't happen, the USA will get it later.


I'm not sure the USA would seek to absorb Quebec proper. They'd move into "Hudsonia" for sure, blocking Quebec from the Hudson Bay completely, but it's pretty plausible that they'd keep Quebec as a vassal state instead of annexing it. There's plenty of land out West. (Especially if the British-allied USA later takes the Lousisiana Country of France/Spain, as I expect will happen.)

Interesting. I wasn't aware that Britain was prepared to make such huge concessions to the rebels, although as you say if somehow they lose all of the mainland Maritime region those areas are pretty much undefendable by them. Mind you with such a situation if France and Quebec were to get reunited then Paris would probably have a pretty large say on matters and given how much more contact Quebec has with those lands than the new US that would also be decisive.

I still think Britain would keep Newfoundland for its economic value, i.e. the Grand Banks. Its possible they might make a deal with the US, possibly with France being squeezed out? However could they trust the US who went back on a number of agreements in this time period. [For instance refusing compensation for loyalists who choose to resettle and then after 1814 blocking British trade up the Mississippi].

Steve
 

Buba

A total creep
The Nipissing Line - is this a NS or WE line?
If NS - the US would get land to the west OR east of it - I'm very confused ...
 

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