What if all Axis occupied territories and their maritime EEZs from July 15th, 1943 are ISOT to July 15th 1993?

[raharris1973]

What if all Axis occupied territories and their maritime EEZs from July 15th, 1943 are ISOT to July 15th 1993?

Here are the relevant maps - close enough, maps as of 1 July

European-Mediterranean Theater:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/1943-07-01GerWW2BattlefrontAtlas.jpg


Asia-Pacific Front:

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/1943-07-01JapWW2BattlefrontAtlas.jpg

Most relevant deviation, July 15th is five days into Operation Husky, the Allied Invasion and Sicily, and all of 1943 Sicily, including the downtime Allied invading forces and the supporting Allied fleet in Sicilian waters, comes with the island. Battlefront map: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_invasion_of_Sicily#/media/File:Sicilymap2.jpg

On land, for the most part, the boundary between uptime and downtime is at the Axis and Allied forward line of troops or no-man's land in between, so the Axis side is downtime 1943 and the Allied side, or across the border into neutral countries is uptime 1993. The divide continues in a vertical column up through the whole atmosphere and down underground to below the earth's crust. so in the skies over Axis lands, its likely to be majority Axis aircraft overall, but Allied aircraft over Axis airspace make the time travel also. In certain cases of mixed occupation of certain islands, like Sicily and New Guinea, the whole island is the downtime version, Axis and Allied militaries both, and the 1943 civilian populations. So 1993 will get reacquainted with Patton, and depending on his travel schedule, MacArthur.

On land in Europe, the 1943 European Axis borders the 1993 Russian Federation under Boris Yeltsin, which has been hammered by late Soviet stagnation and post-Soviet economic collapse and shock therapy. It also borders with neutral 1993 Sweden under Prime Minister Carl Bildt. What the Axis thinks as neutral , but with NATO obligations in 1993, Turkey under PM Ms. Tansu Ciller, and Spain PM Felipe Gonzalez. Britain's PM is John Major. In the wider neighborhood, Yitzhak Rabin is PM of Israel. The Middle East and North Africa and all Africa and South and Central Asia all have their 1993 populations, infrastructures, and leaders.

An important detail here is that the 1993 French President Mitterand, PM Juppe, inner Cabinet, special forces, navy, Air Force, and intelligence services are not overwritten but relocated to the French Caribbean departments of Guadalupe, Martinique, and Guiana.

British forces in continental Europe as of 1993 are relocated back to the United Kingdom. United States forces in continental Europe as of 1993 are relocated back to the United States. Russian Federation forces located in former Soviet and Warsaw Pact lands are transported to unoccupied parts of the Russian Federation instead of being overwritten. The Dutch monarch, PM, special forces, intelligence services, navy, and Air Force are relocated to the Dutch Caribbean instead of being overwritten, and the same situation obtains for the Danish government and services with Greenland.

In Asia and the Pacific, things work similarly. Countries wholly occupied by Japan are overwritten by their 1943 versions. But Russian Federation forces in South Sakhalin and the Kuriles are merely teleported to the nearest unoccupied parts of the Russian Federation. Burmese forces to the nearest unoccupied parts of Burma. Residual 1993 Indonesian forces exist in southwest Papua. 1993 US forces in Japan (incl. Okinawa) and Korea are relocated back to Hawaii.

In China, the Japanese occupied zone of Manchuria and China Proper is the 1943 version, and that includes any Communist or Nationalist 1943 'behind the lines' base areas, groupings, or operatives. Unoccupied China however, is the 1993 version of the PRC, and the air, ground, and missile strength of the PRC is relocated to unoccupied China. So is the leadership from the Beijing area, including Jiang Zemin and 'retired' Deng Xiaoping, whose only remaining title was chairman of the national contract bridge association. As a bonus for China, the ground and air strength of the Republic of China forces on Taiwan and the offshore islands is also relocated to Sichuan province, as is the ROC leadership, including Lee Teng-hui from Taipei. Both the PRC and ROC navies disappear however.

Outside the Japanese perimeter, Oceania and America are all the 1993 versions. Bill Clinton is POTUS. Fidel Castro leads Cuba.

ASBs, in addition to all this teleporting and ISOT'ing, also bend the laws of physics in a couple other important ways. They prevent any and all man-made nuclear fission and fusion reactors and reactions from happening, rendering all forms of nuclear weapons, nuclear power plants, and nuclear propulsion instantly, and consistently, ineffective. They also completely negate the harmful effects of radioactivity on all living things.

So, how do the big 5 - Clinton, Yeltsin, Major, Jiang Zemin, Mitterand, deal with the sudden surprise appearance of the Axis powers in their midst, with their nuclear tools all suddenly rendered ineffective, and independent minded sovereign states throughout the world from Latin American to Africa, the Middle East, South Asia, and Oceania in place of formerly reliable colonies? How do they deal with the sudden loss of the 1993 continental European and Pacific rim states from the global supply chains and substitute by other means? How do they match their exquisite quality and technology, but numerically small forces against the Axis primitive, but more massive and redundant forces?

 

[ATP]

You sadist.

You just destroyed all hard work of germans after WW2.
After 1956 they started changed germans with nazi,and after at least 1980 made poles bad nazis.
Now it is all for naught - everybody and his dog would see that german genociders were german genociders.

Germany and Japan would be crushed,but here we would have normal Poland and other countries taken by soviets after 1943 -
no soviet people here.
Germans would pay war reparation this time.

Much better world,with bigger Poland/we would not lost Lwów or Wilno here,but still get german lands/

Pacyfic - no big Indonesia,becouse nobody would let muslims create state there.
Sarawak would survive,and not be betrayed by England.
Entire New Gwinea would be independent,the same goes for Timor and dutch part of Borneo.






On the other hand,we also get 1993 Middle and Western Europe send to 1943,with France and Denmark without leadership and best units.

What would happen here ?

Well,sralin would still want to crush states there,but get beaten - nobody on Ukraine or Belaruss wonted NKWD,even commies.
So,we would have coalition of Ukraine,Belarus and Poland stopping soviets.

With possible help of 1993 Japan and South Korea.North Korea would support sralin,of course.

Germany would try to dominate EU - but i doubt they success.Nobody there wonted to be ruled by germans.

So,better world,too.

In which everybody would still remember,that germans are nazis !

 

[raharris1973]

Well,sralin would still want

He's not around, he doesn't ISOT back - it's 1993 Moscow, and Yeltsin

stopping soviets.

There aren't any Soviets, except for Partisan bands behind the 1943 German lines.

Germany would try to dominate EU - but i doubt they success.Nobody there wonted to be ruled by germans.

Remember, this is a matter for the future, these are 1943 Germans we are dealing with here.

 

[Buba]

The relocations and ineffective nukes ruin the premise. E.g. why duplicate Mitterand - his '43 version is in the French Government. The Vichy Government ...

Of course, the Mother of Economic Slumps occurs.
A poor, underdeveloped and lily white, Christian Europe.
OPEC is fucked - not only nobody is buying their oil, but they lost their public and private investments in Europe. Surviving offshore investments are worthless due to economic crisis.
The downtimers eye the uptimers as disgusting debauched degenerates. Many trends, fashions, policies which in OTL happened here are dead in the water, or whither and die.

 

[Buba]

Panic arms purchases all over the world.

Japan will get hammered by PRC remnant and ... India.
ASEAN will be very different from OTL as late WWII and POST WWII events do not happen.
Once cleared of the Japanese - also relevant by whom - the local Goverments will be only partly be composed of the same people. And there are no colonial govt's trying to reimpose their will. Or at least with capacity to do so.
TOP of mind - Vietnam. Once the US and/or India break the IJN there, a Vietnamese administration will be set up. The French will be told to ... stay away.
Best Korea - LOL! In 1943 Kim Ir Sen (also known as Kim Il Sung) was in the USSR, together with part of the ComParty core. This is Good News for Korea, naturally.

 

[raharris1973]

Japan will get hammered by PRC remnant and ... India.

The PRC's minimum sphere of interest in this is obvious, getting the Japanese TFO their country! And their next level interests are fairly obvious too, their immediate land neighbors and immediate offshore neighbors.

What does India see as its minimum and maximum spheres and interest, and how does that dictate when and where they choose to pummel Japanese downtime forces in Southeast Asia? And how do they balance that opportunity to jockey for position in the downtime Southeast Asian world, with their need to guard against their contemporary/uptime frontiers/rivalries with China in the Himalayas and with Pakistan?

Does Pakistan make itself an ally of convenience to Japan for anti-India purposes?

TOP of mind - Vietnam. Once the US and/or India break the IJN there

This geographic area would be quite low on the USA global priority 'to-do' list. - But the US is still the existing power the the greatest means of power projection. India is closer and has fewer competing worries and with modern gear and population, far outclasses Japan, but Vietnam is a bit ambitious for them given lack of recent (since independence) in multi-division overseas or cross-continental miliary operations - but, they are modern, numerous, and have done plenty of PKOs.

The downtimers eye the uptimers as disgusting debauched degenerates.

They will, but in immediate emergencies many people will have to work together across time-gaps and earn some respect for each other, despite the culture shock.

 

[raharris1973]

The relocations and ineffective nukes ruin the premise.

I get why relocations might, because it makes it easier for moderns, but wouldn't *keeping* nukes ruin it more? By turning it into 'Hitler's Nazi Germany gets nuked into surrender/oblivion, same happens to Japan [if not from USA, from China], then clean up, the end'

----------break/break----------
Great points on the global economic factors. That is such a big issue I will return to that later.

For Russia, the 1st military priority is relieving the siege of St. Petersburg. It might have to be a liberation and revenge for massacre, in case the St. Petersburg police department and national guard equivalent, caught by surprise, is unable to withstand being overrun by a Nazi bum-rush.

On the southern front, modern NATO, 6th Fleet and Allied Fleet units in the Med would have to figure out quickly how to provide continuing support to Patton and Monty on Sicily, and to the 1943 Allied fleet and air units close offshore. No Tunisia based support is available anymore.

For the western/ Atlantic front, Jersey and Guernsey will be lost.

The uptime western Allies will not strictly speaking have to do an opposed beach landing in France. As a NATO member, Spain should be granting all the Allies permissive access through northern Spanish ports for two operations in fairly close succession, Pyrenean Shield and Pyrenean Storm.

Depending on the amount of forces available and Turkish receptivity under the Ciller-Demirel regime, this could be complemented by Op Thracian (or Balkan) Storm. The Turks may insist on feigning neutrality for a bit while evacuating civilians from the Axis border.

One thing Clinton and Major will be compelled to do by political outcry whether it is operationally effective for hastening German surrender or for reducing civilian killings, or not, is long range bombings and missile strikes on Auschwitz and other death camps and rail lines leading to them.

One other area neglected in this discussion so far is the interplay between the downtime war and the uptime Middle East and North Africa. The Israelis will have an objective of punishing Nazis and rescuing Jews while protecting home neighborhood security. Meanwhile, Hitler and Mussolini on the one hand, and Qaddafi, Hafiz Assad, Saddam Hussein and the Islamic Republic of Iran (led by Khamanei) and Bashir of Sudan and his guest, Osama Bin Laden, will see the USA, UK, Israel, and Russia as common enemies, and each other as possible Allies of convenience.

 

[Buba]

Good point about Turkey - as a NATO member it should fight. It will probably advance until forced to take a breather by exhaustion around Belgrade ...
Full agreement on the attack from Spain.

Yes, Sankt Peterburg is a humanitarian disaster, captured by the Germans or not. Feeding it will be quite a bother!

India is not exactly famous for campaigns in far off places - its simply may not have capacity to do so, but here the Japanese are on the border - or even inside India in places. I see India at the very least crushing the Japanese forces on the Indian-Burmese border, and probably liberating Burma. The Indian Navy rips the IJN a new one. But would India move into Thailand and/or Malaya?

 

[ATP]

He's not around, he doesn't ISOT back - it's 1993 Moscow, and Yeltsin

There aren't any Soviets, except for Partisan bands behind the 1943 German lines.

Remember, this is a matter for the future, these are 1943 Germans we are dealing with here.

Sorry for being unclear.

But,you create two worlds:

1.1993 with 1943 Axis - germans and Japan get crushed,free Poland and East Europe,Germans could not play victims of nazis and rule Europe.
And this time,they really pay for their crimes.

Asia - probably no North Korea,free Vietnam and Laos,normal Birma,smaller Indonesia,surviving Sarawak.

2.1943 with 1993 Poland,Belarus,Ukraine,Germany and other european countries - but France and Holland lost their goverments.
In Asia - 1993 Japan,both Koreas,Vietnam,thailand,Indonesia.

USA would probably stop war on Pacyfic,with Indonesia demanding their part of New Guinea.

BUT,IN EUROPE SRALIN WOULD TRY GET EVERYTCHING.
And,everybody would fight him - becouse even 1993 Belarus and Germany would not want NKWD.
So,he [robably get to Dniepr river and be stopped there.

Potential bad ending,becouse germans here could try rule Europe.And could win,just like in OTL.

Good point about Turkey - as a NATO member it should fight. It will probably advance until forced to take a breather by exhaustion around Belgrade ...
Full agreement on the attack from Spain.

Yes, Sankt Peterburg is a humanitarian disaster, captured by the Germans or not. Feeding it will be quite a bother!

India is not exactly famous for campaigns in far off places - its simply may not have capacity to do so, but here the Japanese are on the border - or even inside India in places. I see India at the very least crushing the Japanese forces on the Indian-Burmese border, and probably liberating Burma. The Indian Navy rips the IJN a new one. But would India move into Thailand and/or Malaya?

True about attack from Spain,and India taking Burma.They probably could take Malaya,too.
China - too occupied with taking China and Manchuria to invade Japan,i think.But,they could take Vietnam !.

Petersburg - yes,there could be disaster - but,if Putin die there,it would be good.

 

[raharris1973]

Sorry for being unclear.

But,you create two worlds:

1.1993 with 1943 Axis - germans and Japan get crushed,free Poland and East Europe,Germans could not play victims of nazis and rule Europe.
And this time,they really pay for their crimes.

Asia - probably no North Korea,free Vietnam and Laos,normal Birma,smaller Indonesia,surviving Sarawak.

2.1943 with 1993 Poland,Belarus,Ukraine,Germany and other european countries - but France and Holland lost their goverments.
In Asia - 1993 Japan,both Koreas,Vietnam,thailand,Indonesia.

USA would probably stop war on Pacyfic,with Indonesia demanding their part of New Guinea.

BUT,IN EUROPE SRALIN WOULD TRY GET EVERYTCHING.
And,everybody would fight him - becouse even 1993 Belarus and Germany would not want NKWD.
So,he [robably get to Dniepr river and be stopped there.

Potential bad ending,becouse germans here could try rule Europe.And could win,just like in OTL.





True about attack from Spain,and India taking Burma.They probably could take Malaya,too.
China - too occupied with taking China and Manchuria to invade Japan,i think.But,they could take Vietnam !.

Petersburg - yes,there could be disaster - but,if Putin die there,it would be good.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[raharris1973]

Let's look at economic consequences - For the Axis, already under blockade, fewer direct ill effects, except those that come from impact of alterations to military operations of their besieged economies. However, In the case of Germany, its borders with several 1943 neutral nations see those neighbors replaced with their 1993 uptime equivalents and alter trading relationships accordingly. So this changes Nazi, Italian, and minor Axis trade with Switzerland, Sweden, Spain, and Turkey.

All four of the uptime versions of those countries have decent arguments that any 1943 delivery contracts or payment contracts with the Axis are void or expired, and vice versa. The only thing moderating thing in this is any potential fear of getting invaded, which is most severe for Switzerland. So Switzerland, and possibly the others, may do some trade with the Axis under implicit duress for some days while evaluating and preparing their defenses. People who have discussed Sweden ISOTs on boards in the past have pointed to sheer limited quantity of modern Swedish forces and lack of martial attitudes hobbling Swedish ability to successfully resist a hypothetical Nazi invasion, despite the vastly more advanced technology of the modern Swedes. These have all been from discussions I've sampled in the 2010s and beyond. I do not know if the quantitative disadvantage and loss of martial sharpness would have been quite so lopsidedly severe for 1993 Sweden. For Spain and Portugal and Turkey, the moral repugnance all uptime countries will have for any trade/diplomatic relations with the Axis powers will be compounded by the NATO obligations of their modern incarnations and post-WWII abandonment of neutrality. Even here, the three may not blindly jump into declared hostility with the Axis for a few days as they assess their vulnerabilities, exposure, and capabilities, and plans of other uptime nations they find have come with them.

The Pacific theater is far less affected by neutrals. The only new neutral added to the borders of the Japanese Empire is 1993 Portuguese Macau. Given its isolation and small size, the Portuguese authorities will not try to make themselves anti-Japanese heroes by picking fights with them, and will parley cautiously with the Japanese across the wire to the extent the latter are prepared to reciprocate, for the few days or week it takes for the uptime PLA to blast the Japanese occupiers out of the adjoining portion of China's Guangzhou city and Guangzhou province.

The uptime global economy of the 1993 world, in relative terms, takes a huge hit, and is thrown into trade and financial chaos, or at least disruption. Ultimately, mass disruption and disorder may be a better term than chaos, because the latter implies an inability to reorder things. But there are strong actors with the ability to organize and settle a revised order of things, no matter how different, incomplete, and painful adjustments to the new order is.

Looking at the G7 Economic Powers of 1993 - The USA, Canada, Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Japan..... -- the last four out of the seven are vanished, along with all their corporate headquarters, central banks, finance ministries (except perhaps some refugee French officials in Caribbean), domestic productive bases, infrastructures, domestic supply chains, ports, etc.

So, the G3, the USA, Canada, and Britain are the dominant advanced economies of the world. "France-1993" is a scattering of tropical islands and some random naval and military forces and companies and properties and financial holdings in the form of the Franc or the Euro (not sure if the switch was complete) and foreign currencies, lacking its metropolitan core, so a deflated 'holding company' of a nation. In place of France, Italy, Germany, and Japan are the 1943 versions which are besieged, more primitive, enemy and enemy-occupied lands, autarkically separated from the uptime world.

The American, Canadian, and British economic concerns, focused on middle-management downsizing, loss of manufacturing competitiveness, and soft 'jobless' recovery from the 1990-1992 recession are immediately replaced by an *entirely* different set of economic problems in this brave new world, often 180 degrees in opposition to their previous problems, with the sudden vanishing of the global export powerhouses of the Federal Republic of Germany, Japan, and the Asian "Tiger Economies" of South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and up-and-coming lower end Southeast Asian manufacturing centers like Malaysia, Thailand, and Indonesia. Even China was by 1993 starting to make a global impact on very low-end manufacturing and assembly sectors, but its most active 'enterprise' zones of the time like Shenzen are either overwritten by Japanese occupied coastal territory, or have their export and transit routes to world markets closed off.

Suddenly, there is *very little* competition to American, Canadian, and British manufacturing, and a paucity of expected manufactured industrial and consumer imports. And now there are demands for military products, like precision-guided munitions, or even just 'dumb' but adequate 1980s-level military tech, on a truly industrial, rather than boutique scale. Consumer and industrial price *inflation* is indeed the order of the day, and manufacturing employment and wages should indeed *rise* compared to other sectors.

Of course economic planning and forecasting is difficult in this environment.

Presuming the ISOT changes are permanent, the vanishing of continental Europe and the Pacific Rim at their 1993 developmental level should be considered a long-term factor that will take decades to resolve. Even with postwar technological spread and any Marshall Plan like subsidy for technological/educational upgrade and uplift, cultural and full socioeconomic convergence of 1943 Europe and Pacific Rim to a 1993 world is not a task that can be realistically be expected to be accomplished in less than a full generation. It is not the work of a mere decade.

However, since the war to defeat the Axis is of uncertain length, and may be fairly short, likely shorter until the end than it was downtime, many required wartime manufacturing activities are setting up the Allied powers and people around the world for major wartime boom and postwar bust, with the abrupt drop-off of demand.

Immediate demand for consumer and wartime production, and availability of manufacturing jobs, and inflation, removes controversy away from NAFTA, and indeed presents opportunities for any offshoring or re-shoring of lost Pacific Rim manufacturing to occur in Mexico, and from there possibly in Central America, the Caribbean, and South America. The disappearance of Pacific Rim export-led growth competitors, and hunger to fill their void, may ironically make the 1990s period of economic neoliberalism and enthusiasm for everyone to try liberalization and export led growth in Latin America, actually work out much better for the region than it actually did.
If Mexican manufacturing growth does well enough, in an optimistic scenario, this might substantially crowd out the informal/criminal/cartel sector and reduce some of the endemic violence in the country, while increasing the breadth of increased national income.

All the Middle East and North African and Sub-Saharan African oil exporters exist in their 1993 incarnations and productive capacity. And they've just lost their European and Pacific Rim industrial consumers. So the 1990s, post Persian Gulf War low energy price trend should be accentuated.

The thing working against it is the oil-hungry Allied war effort. Luckily for the Allies, they should be exercising enough naval supremacy that the Libyans, Iranians, and the like are not going to be getting much in the way of oil trade done with the Axis powers except for some lucky small-scale smuggled shipments.

Long term, the fossil fuel exporters should benefit from nuclear energy not working.

The Chinese retain some of the knowledge to down the line become the workshop for Walmart, but need to run the pesky Japanese out of their country first.

If the Indians and Pakistanis are clever and wise, they can capture a greater share of the offshoring-re-shoring manufacturing pie in this world, if they can only get out of their own way soon enough.

When the Allies ultimately defeat the Axis across the board, in some places there may be more damage from conventional weapons, but there will overall be less damage to physical structures due to smarter bombs and more rapid operations. This will retard European and Japanese 'urban renewal' to the extent that was helpful to postwar rebuilding.

Postwar Europe and Japan will have their social capital, but given worldwide increases in education by the 1990s, to some extent, they may be competing only at the same level as Russia and China and third world countries in the quest for development, attracting foreign investment, and innovation. On the other hand, with their 1940s and wartime experiences, even once exposed to uptime technologies, they won't price themselves out of competition with the third world, Russia, and China with high wage and standard of living expectations, the way 1990s Europeans and Japanese would have.

 

[ATP]

Sweden in 1993 had about 200 J.37 Viggen fighters in all variants,so they should be fine.
Only country which could be invaded would be Switzerland.

When Spain and Turkey could lead their own invasions.
Russia,even weakend,could try to take Belarus and maybe Ukraine.

 

[raharris1973]

@Simon Darkshade from another board opined about gross American, and especially British *industrial* underpreparedness to support quantitavely the war effort needed against the Axis.

And how the disabling of nuke tech sidelines a major share of the uptime 1993 navies (nuclear propelled subs and carriers):

Logistically, there are a lot of major problems. In 1993, we haven't quite hit the pomp of the post CW peace dividend cuts, but there have been a lot of them. Munitions production capacity was hugely lower than the height of the CW, with many factories closed down from the 1970s onwards. As in many things, this was more pronounced in Britain than in the USA by virtue of the strategic choices made from 1952 onwards, including obscenely low stocks of arms, missile and ammunition.

Setting up the factories/wartime manufacturing activities is going to be a huge task for the Americans, but they have the basis to do it in ~36-48 months. Britain is much worse off, as it is only equipped to build on a 'boutique scale' as you rightly put it. It isn't just a matter of ROF X or Y, but the whole industrial chain that has been wound up since the 1960s.

Britain has two divisions (2nd Infantry and 3rd Mechanised) at home plus 1st Armoured back from Germany; 4th Armoured had been disbanded before the event. Even with advanced weapons, such as tanks that are invulnerable to conventional German weapons, they don't have enough forces to both be everywhere and cover inevitable attrition. Production rates and capacity are laughable.

The majority of USN and RN submarines are useless - only the 4 Upholders are conventional. The USN has only Constellation, Kitty Hawk, JFK, America, Independence, Saratoga and Forrestal as conventional carriers, and the latter three are on their last legs. 4 very good but old American carriers and 3 fairly mediocre British Harrier carriers aren't going to go a long way.

 

[Buba]

IMO USA and UK simply have to introduce conscription - what sort of excitement from the usual suspects can we expect?

 

[ATP]

If USA need 36 months to invade,then Germans would have time for making new jet fighters/Me 1010 ,i think/,and E.50 tanks.
AA missiles,too.

Not that it help them much.

 

[raharris1973]

IMO USA and UK simply have to introduce conscription - what sort of excitement from the usual suspects can we expect?

Old Left would never bitch about conscription for fighting WWII enemies. Think New Left has a generational change of heart?

Or far Right people, Ku Klux'ers bitch and moan?

 

[Buba]

Thinking of it the UK can't handle conscripts - military is too small. Volunteers will do, at least initially, I think.

 

[ATP]

Thinking of it the UK can't handle conscripts - military is too small. Volunteers will do, at least initially, I think.

UK from 2023 - yes.UK from 1993,which get their troops from Germany magically removed to England -
they should be fine.If i remember sorrectlt,they had 4 dyvisions.
Enough for training new recruits.

 

[Buba]

they had 4 dyvisions.

Three - the 4th was disbanded ASAP after Cold War ended.

 

[ATP]

Three - the 4th was disbanded ASAP after Cold War ended.

Thanks.But - still enough to train new recruits.