What if Alien Space Bats replace Europe in 1878 with virgin earth?

[stevep]

A minority of the Taliban went to Pakistan or came from Pakistan which follows a diametrically opposed Deobandi School of thought, the bulk remained in country, fighting in the Spring-Summer, going home for Winter. Also the US and Afghan Government routinely targeted the Civilian Population and are responsible for the bulk of civilian deaths.

I fully agree that the US made a real mess of their operartions, I think because they were never really thinking beyond the initial 'victory' and ignoring the hard work of putting a decent system in place. However they won so quickly and easily in large part because the Taliban were destested for their brutality and incompetence.

Also the Taliban captured the Country intact in 21, not their fault the IRA Government were corrupt douchebags. If half the country starves its because the IRA government stole all the money and the "West" refused to return it, making all deaths on IRA and the "West" not them.

They captured a mess they had in part created by so many attacks on civilians and infrastructure and continued to command the problem by vindictive persecutions of both formal government military and the many groups they refuse to accept as people. The corruption of the previous regime played a part in this but the blame is largely on the Taliban for their continued excesses and lying which keeps the country in terror.

The issue that would make a difference would be western aid but why should the west send large funds to a regime that's likely to pocket it themselves and pretty certain not to pass it onto those most in need because they want them dead.

Prior rule, the country was already a wasteland due to the warlords, they simply restored order and were in the process of rebuilding the nation. If Bush had been smarter, some cash under the table, and a few knives in the dark would have sufficed for 9/11. Instead he got the US embroiled in a world wide war that is now decisively lost and the US is now broken.

Prior to the initial Taliban conquest the country was in a mess due to civil war, Soviet occupation and then the warlords. They didn't do much to rebuild, being more interested in their deranged ideas of misrule until they then decided to support bin Laden's international terrorism.

US was 1/3 loyalist, 1/3 neutral, and 1/3 rebel in 1776, the war was brutal, but the minority won by force of arms and despite losing more battles than they won. The will of the majority did not matter because the rebels had their shit together and the Loyalists and the motherland did not.

The Reds were outnumbered by the Whites in the Russian Civil War and the bulk of the population was neutral. Reds won, the popular will did not matter.

Same in China, Vietnam, et al.

Some merit in your 1st comment although of course your ignoring that the bulk of British effort was engaged against the assorted great powers who aided the rebels.

I think the Reds, for all their incompetence actually had more support than the Whites because the latter were seen as associated with the old autocratic regime that had caused so much death and suffering. As such many decided, quite probably wrongly in hindsight, that the Reds were the less worst of the options.

I've already pointed out that your wrong in the case of Nazi Germany [could also say Imperial Germany], Imperial Japan and the USSR.

Victory is all the justification needed. Thus has it been and always will be. Your argument is based on a false premise that doesn't hold water.

For the fanatic but they never look to building a lasting state because their only interested in power and ego and their incapable of looking beyond that. Hence why 'states' established by groups such as that tend to be transient and fragile.

 

[Chiron]

I fully agree that the US made a real mess of their operartions, I think because they were never really thinking beyond the initial 'victory' and ignoring the hard work of putting a decent system in place. However they won so quickly and easily in large part because the Taliban were destested for their brutality and incompetence.

They won so quickly because Iran in a rare moment of cooperation that Bush squandered, provided targeting data and all known Taliban HQs to the US which they had gained after years of overflights for the Northern Alliance. The bombing campaign was going nowhere up to that point as the USAF was hitting all the wrong targets.

They captured a mess they had in part created by so many attacks on civilians and infrastructure and continued to command the problem by vindictive persecutions of both formal government military and the many groups they refuse to accept as people. The corruption of the previous regime played a part in this but the blame is largely on the Taliban for their continued excesses and lying which keeps the country in terror.

The infrastructure was intact, they weren't responsible for the bulk of the civilian deaths, and civilians hanging around military targets take their chances under the laws of war. Also the bulk of the prior government that wasn't corrupt is still working. Also the Hazaras who they initially hated are under the rule of a Hazara Taliban unit and Amir. Compared to the IRA and US, their excesses are nothing and girl's schools are opening again, some never even closed. Not that long ago, women even graduated from Medical School in Kabul and were licensed by the Taliban. Now don't get me wrong, they are assholes, but they have certainly changed.

The issue that would make a difference would be western aid but why should the west send large funds to a regime that's likely to pocket it themselves and pretty certain not to pass it onto those most in need because they want them dead.

Because the Taliban keep their word, hence why the UN is able to operate girls schools deep in Taliban controlled territory, why there is a Hazara Taliban Unit running majority Hazara areas, and why they are able to work with diametrically opposed groups like al-Qaeda who have an incompatible belief system. These are not mustache twirling villains, these are pragmatic Afghan Nationalists.

Prior to the initial Taliban conquest the country was in a mess due to civil war, Soviet occupation and then the warlords. They didn't do much to rebuild, being more interested in their deranged ideas of misrule until they then decided to support bin Laden's international terrorism.

They were setting up factories, de-mining large areas of Afghanistan, creating a formal standing army, and unifying the country. Bin Laden ending up in their lap was an accident of Iranian and Pakistani meddling, he was supposed to work with the Northern Alliance to create a Northern Alliance Puppet State for Pakistan. Taliban advances put paid to that plan and the Northern Alliance turned to Iran instead. The Taliban never had anything to do with Bin Laden's world wide operations, tried several times to turn him over to Saudi Arabia, the US, and others while using his men as canon fodder in their war with the Northern Alliance. Bush's war on the Taliban was thus not only stupid, it was illegal under international law.

Some merit in your 1st comment although of course your ignoring that the bulk of British effort was engaged against the assorted great powers who aided the rebels.

Who showed up late and after the war had already been won at Saratoga. Georgie couldn't get the Hannoverian Parliament to join in, and could only borrow a few Regiments to garrison Gib for a bit and could not find the will to fight it out.

I think the Reds, for all their incompetence actually had more support than the Whites because the latter were seen as associated with the old autocratic regime that had caused so much death and suffering. As such many decided, quite probably wrongly in hindsight, that the Reds were the less worst of the options.

They did not, the Peasants certainly didn't give a fuck who was in charge so long as they were left alone.

I've already pointed out that your wrong in the case of Nazi Germany [could also say Imperial Germany], Imperial Japan and the USSR.

No you did not. They threw in the towel as they were not 100% committed to victory.

For the fanatic but they never look to building a lasting state because their only interested in power and ego and their incapable of looking beyond that. Hence why 'states' established by groups such as that tend to be transient and fragile.

USA, PRC, SRV, IEA, IS, PDRA, IRI, et al say hi. Our fanaticism paid off and we are still here flipping you off.

 

[stevep]

They won so quickly because Iran in a rare moment of cooperation that Bush squandered, provided targeting data and all known Taliban HQs to the US which they had gained after years of overflights for the Northern Alliance. The bombing campaign was going nowhere up to that point as the USAF was hitting all the wrong targets.

You mean the bombing campaign that occurred on isolated areas after the Taliban were driven from most of the country?

The infrastructure was intact, they weren't responsible for the bulk of the civilian deaths, and civilians hanging around military targets take their chances under the laws of war. Also the bulk of the prior government that wasn't corrupt is still working. Also the Hazaras who they initially hated are under the rule of a Hazara Taliban unit and Amir. Compared to the IRA and US, their excesses are nothing and girl's schools are opening again, some never even closed. Not that long ago, women even graduated from Medical School in Kabul and were licensed by the Taliban. Now don't get me wrong, they are assholes, but they have certainly changed.

Because the Taliban keep their word, hence why the UN is able to operate girls schools deep in Taliban controlled territory, why there is a Hazara Taliban Unit running majority Hazara areas, and why they are able to work with diametrically opposed groups like al-Qaeda who have an incompatible belief system. These are not mustache twirling villains, these are pragmatic Afghan Nationalists.

So schools, markets, bridges, civil buildings etc are military targets? I will agree that the US is notoriously feckless with firepower but most of the civilian deaths they inflicted were accidental. Although they were stupid enough to continue to deny their mistakes. The vast bulk of the civilian deaths caused by the Taliban were deliberate targeting.

So that's why the Taliban are refusing to allow girls schools to reopen and have imposed further restrictions on women to prevent them leaving their homes and hence making it even more difficult for women to get work when many families rely on that. Also why many people who have accepted a proposed amnesty are in hiding or have been killed? Why some judges have been killed and others are in hiding from prisoners they sentenced for crimes who have been released by the Taliban.

They are definitely not nationalists given their brutality towards any group that they don't like. They are egomaniacs who think their gods, like any bunch of fanatics. Somewhat less deranged than IS and other such groups but not much better for the people who have the misfortune to be ruled by them.

They were setting up factories, de-mining large areas of Afghanistan, creating a formal standing army, and unifying the country. Bin Laden ending up in their lap was an accident of Iranian and Pakistani meddling, he was supposed to work with the Northern Alliance to create a Northern Alliance Puppet State for Pakistan. Taliban advances put paid to that plan and the Northern Alliance turned to Iran instead. The Taliban never had anything to do with Bin Laden's world wide operations, tried several times to turn him over to Saudi Arabia, the US, and others while using his men as canon fodder in their war with the Northern Alliance. Bush's war on the Taliban was thus not only stupid, it was illegal under international law.

BS. If the Taliban were willing to turn him over for trial then they would have avoided the allied invasion. It was their refusal to do that which prompted the alliance that quickly drove them from power. I remember Taliban statements at the time about their refusal to hand him over.

Plus its interesting you suggest that Bin Laden was supposed to work with the Northern Alliance, a moderate group but that Pakistani intervention helped prevent that given that Pakistan was the supporters and very much the creators of the Taliban and continue to be so.

Who showed up late and after the war had already been won at Saratoga. Georgie couldn't get the Hannoverian Parliament to join in, and could only borrow a few Regiments to garrison Gib for a bit and could not find the will to fight it out.

So the war was won in 1777 but continued until 1783. At Saratoga the rebels avoided a major defeat, in part because of idiotic commanding and that presuaded the French and later the Spanish and Dutch to join the war against the British and loyalist. The decisive battle was at Yorktown, in 1782, when a Franco-rebel army in which the French took the heavier losses, aided by French siege artillery and a French fleet forced the surrender of Cornwallis's army.

They did not, the Peasants certainly didn't give a fuck who was in charge so long as they were left alone.

Wrong. Try reading up on the events at the time. Lenin promised peace and land i.e. ending the war with Germany and breaking up the aristocratic estates. He lied on the latter as later on the land was taken from the peasants by collectivisation but they didn't know that at the time. Even so most of the peasants supported the Social Revolutionary Party but they also decided that the Bolsheviks were less of a threat than the Whites.

No you did not. They threw in the towel as they were not 100% committed to victory.

You mean that the forces fighting gave a damn for the population around them and hence gave up a futile struggle. Rather than narcissistic fanatics who are only concerned with their own desires.

USA, PRC, SRV, IEA, IS, PDRA, IRI, et al say hi. Our fanaticism paid off and we are still here flipping you off.

And still slaughtering and enslaving the Afghans.

 

[WolfBear]

They won so quickly because Iran in a rare moment of cooperation that Bush squandered, provided targeting data and all known Taliban HQs to the US which they had gained after years of overflights for the Northern Alliance. The bombing campaign was going nowhere up to that point as the USAF was hitting all the wrong targets.



The infrastructure was intact, they weren't responsible for the bulk of the civilian deaths, and civilians hanging around military targets take their chances under the laws of war. Also the bulk of the prior government that wasn't corrupt is still working. Also the Hazaras who they initially hated are under the rule of a Hazara Taliban unit and Amir. Compared to the IRA and US, their excesses are nothing and girl's schools are opening again, some never even closed. Not that long ago, women even graduated from Medical School in Kabul and were licensed by the Taliban. Now don't get me wrong, they are assholes, but they have certainly changed.



Because the Taliban keep their word, hence why the UN is able to operate girls schools deep in Taliban controlled territory, why there is a Hazara Taliban Unit running majority Hazara areas, and why they are able to work with diametrically opposed groups like al-Qaeda who have an incompatible belief system. These are not mustache twirling villains, these are pragmatic Afghan Nationalists.



They were setting up factories, de-mining large areas of Afghanistan, creating a formal standing army, and unifying the country. Bin Laden ending up in their lap was an accident of Iranian and Pakistani meddling, he was supposed to work with the Northern Alliance to create a Northern Alliance Puppet State for Pakistan. Taliban advances put paid to that plan and the Northern Alliance turned to Iran instead. The Taliban never had anything to do with Bin Laden's world wide operations, tried several times to turn him over to Saudi Arabia, the US, and others while using his men as canon fodder in their war with the Northern Alliance. Bush's war on the Taliban was thus not only stupid, it was illegal under international law.



Who showed up late and after the war had already been won at Saratoga. Georgie couldn't get the Hannoverian Parliament to join in, and could only borrow a few Regiments to garrison Gib for a bit and could not find the will to fight it out.



They did not, the Peasants certainly didn't give a fuck who was in charge so long as they were left alone.



No you did not. They threw in the towel as they were not 100% committed to victory.



USA, PRC, SRV, IEA, IS, PDRA, IRI, et al say hi. Our fanaticism paid off and we are still here flipping you off.

Do you believe that articles such as this one are just empty fear-mongering? :

Protecting the Hazara People of Afghanistan is a Moral Obligation the World is Failing to Meet – Global Security Review

globalsecurityreview.com

Why the Hazara people fear genocide in Afghanistan

With a long history of persecution, the Hazaras fear the worst under Taliban rule.

www.aljazeera.com

You mention that the Taliban has Hazara collaborators but at the same time, the Nazis also had Jewish collaborators, so ...

 

[Chiron]

Do you believe that articles such as this one are just empty fear-mongering? :

Protecting the Hazara People of Afghanistan is a Moral Obligation the World is Failing to Meet – Global Security Review

globalsecurityreview.com

Why the Hazara people fear genocide in Afghanistan

With a long history of persecution, the Hazaras fear the worst under Taliban rule.

www.aljazeera.com

You mention that the Taliban has Hazara collaborators but at the same time, the Nazis also had Jewish collaborators, so ...

Yes, now certainly Hazara's on the bad side of the Taliban will certainly be killed. Those who sided with the Taliban are safe, largely due to Iranian back room dealing to secure its own interests and ensure US Forces have no bases in Afghanistan with which to attack them from.

Nazis were something else, and the Taliban would have joined the Allies to take them down. Massacring non-combatant Jews is a sin in Islam as they are people of the book, and even ISIS has burnt people to death for merely cursing Jews which is also a sin.

There is a high degree of nuance when dealing with the Stans, MENA, and intra-Muslim relationships. The failure of multiple administrations and lay people to understand this is why the USA is breaking apart.

Often times, the best option is to do nothing.