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Warhammer Warhammer General discussion thread: Now with 100% more Space Marines

Marduk

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This is the biggest bit of wonk: Baneblades are, in fact, drastically more technologically complex than Knights. Most obviously the fusion-based power supply that allows for mounting a select few Battle Titan weapons like the Volcano Cannon, but the commonality of true plasma weapons versus Knights tending towards massive-size Chainblades and las-weapons further accentuates the point. The only part of a Knight that's TRULY technologically complex for 40k is the Throne Mechanicus user-interface, being a walker that size is quite trivial.
That's specialist Baneblade variants. Basic, common Baneblades use normal cannons and promethium powered engines.

Also don't forget Knights having actual energy shields of some sort.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Hmm, so idea for creating a powerful, stable, psyker.

Step 1) While the fetus gestates, keep it constantly surrounded by stable psykers who use their power to protect it from any attacks.

Step 2) Once the psyker is born, keep them constantly in the presence of Null's until they reach adulthood.

Step 3) Use a neural interface to put them in a virtual reality environment to undergo training in self control under extreme conditions (i.e. when being tortured to death), repeating (and increasing the intensity) until the subject can remain stable and in control under the most extreme stress.

Step 4) Remove the Null's, so that the first actual exposure of the psyker to the Warp isn't as a newborn child driven by emotion but as an adult with extreme emotional and mental control.

-x-x-x-

At first glance I don't see any inherent problems with the idea (assuming you can get the needed resources), but (as always) I could be missing/overlooking something. So thoughts?
 

Marduk

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Hmm, so idea for creating a powerful, stable, psyker.

Step 1) While the fetus gestates, keep it constantly surrounded by stable psykers who use their power to protect it from any attacks.

Step 2) Once the psyker is born, keep them constantly in the presence of Null's until they reach adulthood.

Step 3) Use a neural interface to put them in a virtual reality environment to undergo training in self control under extreme conditions (i.e. when being tortured to death), repeating (and increasing the intensity) until the subject can remain stable and in control under the most extreme stress.

Step 4) Remove the Null's, so that the first actual exposure of the psyker to the Warp isn't as a newborn child driven by emotion but as an adult with extreme emotional and mental control.

-x-x-x-

At first glance I don't see any inherent problems with the idea (assuming you can get the needed resources), but (as always) I could be missing/overlooking something. So thoughts?
1. Even one null's presence itself causes discomfort to normal people, nevermind what more of them do to a psyker.
2. Does the Imperium have the VR technology to emulate a psyker dealing with warp powers and entities in a way that constitutes useful training, and safely at that, while in many null's presence? I would strongly doubt that it does, nevermind at scale, and AdMech approved kind (the potential for horrible, heretek certified side effect in that kind of thing is massive). Even "mundane" VR training equipment used by Astartes and the like for mundane combat training has its limits, as demonstrated by many valuing real world combat training higher.
 

Emperor Tippy

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1. Even one null's presence itself causes discomfort to normal people, nevermind what more of them do to a psyker.
2. Does the Imperium have the VR technology to emulate a psyker dealing with warp powers and entities in a way that constitutes useful training, and safely at that, while in many null's presence? I would strongly doubt that it does, nevermind at scale, and AdMech approved kind (the potential for horrible, heretek certified side effect in that kind of thing is massive). Even "mundane" VR training equipment used by Astartes and the like for mundane combat training has its limits, as demonstrated by many valuing real world combat training higher.
1. I never said that it would be pleasant for the psyker. But Blanks (as opposed to Pariahs) aren't lethal to psykers, so it is survivable.

2. Depends basically entirely on sources used and interpretation. The tech base for neural interfacing and VR absolutely exists but as to the specifics of its abilities? And it doesn't really need to replicate warp powers and entities, the purpose is to teach self control and harden the mind.

Psykers fall (overwhelmingly) because they don't have the will power to resist and they let Chaos in. A powerful psyker as a babe or young child? They are liable to fall before they ever even become truly conscious because they lack any concept of the danger and feel far too strongly.

The purpose of the process isn't to create someone who can't fall, but to create someone who has to choose to fall. Training them on how to actively wield the warp is something you do after you have turned their mind into a fortress built to resist the temptations offered by the enemy.
 

Marduk

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1. I never said that it would be pleasant for the psyker. But Blanks (as opposed to Pariahs) aren't lethal to psykers, so it is survivable.
The distraction may not help the learning though. Nevermind being cut off from the warp by that.
2. Depends basically entirely on sources used and interpretation. The tech base for neural interfacing and VR absolutely exists but as to the specifics of its abilities? And it doesn't really need to replicate warp powers and entities, the purpose is to teach self control and harden the mind.
Isn't that already done, for whatever it is worth (which is something, but not that much against the level of demonic attention a powerful psyker attracts), as "generic" hypno-indoctrination, even on more common personnel who need such skills, like inquisitorial stormtroopers?
The link a psyker's mind and soul have with the warp is on another level though.
Psykers fall (overwhelmingly) because they don't have the will power to resist and they let Chaos in. A powerful psyker as a babe or young child? They are liable to fall before they ever even become truly conscious because they lack any concept of the danger and feel far too strongly.
Not sure how many of the powerful psykers have much power, nevermind fall, at that age.
My impression was that they start developing powers properly around teenage years.

The purpose of the process isn't to create someone who can't fall, but to create someone who has to choose to fall. Training them on how to actively wield the warp is something you do after you have turned their mind into a fortress built to resist the temptations offered by the enemy.
That's something that ideally Black Ships are already supposed to do. Chuck them into warp warded holds, and move them into a place with enough wards, calm warp etc where they can be trained in relative peace, with competent staff, at least those deemed to be safe enough and worth the effort. The challenge is finding the psykers in the general population before it is too late and holding them until a Black Ship arrives.
 

Zachowon

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Remeber what Jurgen did to Amberly psyker?
He wasn't THAT powerful and the Psyker was pretty bog standard
 

Agent23

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The presence of nulls drives Psykers nuts, I doubt that it is a learned behavior, it is more like forcing a baby to endure while someone drops vinegar into its eyes every few minutes.
Even normies feel extremely uneasy around psykers IIRC, and that is on account of the human soul being connected to the warp.

I think you'd have a better chance taking psycher-potential babies and raising them in the webway, since the insides of that place provided a degree of isolation from the effects of the Dark Gods and other nasties, I mean, that is why Commorragh is a thing.
 

Emperor Tippy

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The presence of nulls drives Psykers nuts, I doubt that it is a learned behavior, it is more like forcing a baby to endure while someone drops vinegar into its eyes every few minutes.
Even normies feel extremely uneasy around psykers IIRC, and that is on account of the human soul being connected to the warp.
That depends a lot on the sourcing. Blanks (as opposed to Pariahs) tend more towards just being unpleasant in most sources. See Eisenhorn. Full blown Pariahs are where you tend to get the really debilitating effects.

I think you'd have a better chance taking psycher-potential babies and raising them in the webway, since the insides of that place provided a degree of isolation from the effects of the Dark Gods and other nasties, I mean, that is why Commorragh is a thing.
Well yes, raising a human psyker in the webway would be a good idea. Except it assumes consistent, long term, access to the webway.

It would be an interesting experiment to raise one inside a sealed wraithbone structure as well, given that it is really good at keeping the daemons out.
 

Agent23

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That depends a lot on the sourcing. Blanks (as opposed to Pariahs) tend more towards just being unpleasant in most sources. See Eisenhorn. Full blown Pariahs are where you tend to get the really debilitating effects.
Didn't Eisenhorn who had some low level psyker abilities feel pretty ill when he was in proximity to one of his psyker underlings, Bequin, was it, IIRC he sort of loved her, but close proximity to her basically have him a headache and made him nauseous?

And he is a fully trained inquisitor with lots of years of life experience that probably ahrdened his stamina and resilence to bad stimuli, read torture, put something like that next to a young kid and the results will probably be worse.


Well yes, raising a human psyker in the webway would be a good idea. Except it assumes consistent, long term, access to the webway.
Well, the Dark Eldar and the Mechanicus already have an IIRC understanding of sorts, since they helped the cogheads to fix up the golden throne according to one book.
Maybe parts of the Inquisition, too.

And humanity does have a lot of undesirables that can be sold to the degenerate knife ears in exchange for some access, criminals, heretics, mutants.

Sounds like a win - win to me.

Also, i think the non-degenerate knife ears also have access to the webway, and they can still spin wraithbone as opposed to the Drukhari.

It would be an interesting experiment to raise one inside a sealed wraithbone structure as well, given that it is really good at keeping the daemons out.
Yeah, maybe Girlyman can get his new girlfriend to make her underlings build some wraithbone structures for the Imperium.
 

Zachowon

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That depends a lot on the sourcing. Blanks (as opposed to Pariahs) tend more towards just being unpleasant in most sources. See Eisenhorn. Full blown Pariahs are where you tend to get the really debilitating effects.


Well yes, raising a human psyker in the webway would be a good idea. Except it assumes consistent, long term, access to the webway.

It would be an interesting experiment to raise one inside a sealed wraithbone structure as well, given that it is really good at keeping the daemons out.
Jurgen and Amberlys psyker.
She was not able to do anything amd he isn't s super special blank
 

Husky_Khan

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"So Brother, you would have better knowledge then I would on this matter. What exactly is the Warp?"

 

Tyzuris

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With some Space Marines, mostly namely Aggressors and Terminators, and also Allarus Terminator Custodes using wrist-mounted-weaponry such as bolters, flamers, grenade launchers, meltas, etc... is there any indication that Space Marines or Custodians are any less accurate with those weapons than they would be with a traditionally aimed rifle weapon?
 
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