Military US Military Is Scared Americans Won't Fight For Globalism

[Agent23]

If we want a bit more realistic exosuits, there’s always Knightmare Frames from Code Geass. Or something like this:

Japan Real Life Mech Kuratas

KMFs are frigging glorified Gundamsz and Sunrise made that series to rip off death note.

Thet series is already known as Gundam: Death Note, and the t ch is very far from realistic.

Can we focus on realistic boom-boom shooty-shooty tech, pls?

 

[TheRomanSlayer]

KMFs are frigging glorified Gundamsz and Sunrise made that series to rip off death note.

Thet series is already known as Gundam: Death Note, and the t ch is very far from realistic.

Can we focus on realistic boom-boom shooty-shooty tech, pls?

Okay.

Though I wonder how big are the exosuits going to be realistically speaking that will be used on the battlefield?

 

[Marduk]

Still, you get to pay for a lot of less capable units, and your money for hescy weapons is reduced.

In terms of the costs of training and equipping a western style infantry battalion with weapons and vehicles, it's little money.

Much bigger troop formation, I'd assume, with specialized air defense vehicles.

Battalion level. As in added to every line battalion.

If those can actually counter drones correctly, and survive against other bigger threats like light artillery, mortars, etc.

They can counter drones correctly. Might wanna stick them on a MRAP, armored car or 8x8 APC for frag resistance.
The alternate route as i mentioned is to just take any of the above that infantry already uses and has a RWS, then adding a software and sensor update to the RWS with a "CIWS MODE" button, and computer going "it flies, it dies".

At this rete the target gets juicer and juicer and easier to track and spot for artillery, and possible in dsnger of anti-vehicpe mines.And the units will be limited to fairly easy to access ground where such vehicles can operate, this negdting some of the infantry's advdnteges.
Being able to spread out and fo through more difficult tersin without sinking in mud or needing something resembling a good road.

It's a ranged weapon. If the infantry has to stray away many kilometers from vehicles and repel drone attacks while doing so by themselves, it better be doing something worth using the really expensive options.
Of course that's for the rich armies who do prefer to do shit with lots of vehicle involvement either war, because it's hard to imagine another scenario where the infantry of such a country is without land or air vehicle support in such shit terrain and attacked by enemy drones.
But for conventional moto/mech infantry, vehicle based solutions are the way to go.

Great, we are reinventing the technical truck, might as well buy a Toyota Helix at this rate.

The devil is in the details, or specifically, the sensors and electronics attached to the gun mount. If its stationary, on a truck, a MRAP or a full on 8x8 or tracked APC chassis is a variable with own pros and cons.

And I think that for adequate garrisoning/ground control you will need a lot more flexible, small detached units.

If they are to be flexible in any meaning of the term, they have light trucks at least, and those can tow an AA gun, if not have it mounted.

Original air combat IIRC started when a bunch of WWI pilots started shooting themselves with revolvers IIRC, they were shooting their own propellers in the process, things evolved quite fast from there.

And the prices of these evolved planes went up faster than the plane's altitudes.
Airforces shrank from tens of thousands of aircraft to thousands and then low hundreds for all but superpower ones. Spitfire alone was built in over 20k in just a decade, that's more than the whole standing USAF now, bah, probably more than all the world airforces combined right now.
Eventually that got us multi million dollar supersonic jets that cheap AA couldn't touch, and in turn AA started using fraction of a million dollar missiles to shoot them down.
Phantom was built in 5k, F-16 4.5k, and F-15 barely over 1k, and the 5th gens are being considered in hundreds usually.
The problem with drones is that they are cheap and spammable. Get them into a performance "arms race" against any weapon, drone, SPAAGS or anything that is in the same economic category, and there's no way prices won't go up, which in turn will make them less spammable, and in turn MANPADS will get back to being a worthwhile counter.

If you can adequately hit a bunch of moving tsrgrte coming at you at speed, maybe.

For a person, not easy. But military grade aimbots are not a new technology, and they do it with supersonic missiles since longer than we are alive, what's a 100 or 300 km/h drone for them.

Assuming they don't use computer assisted controls and guidance to dodge, or some of them don't disperse smoke or chaff to fuck with your visibility or sensors.

They could do that. In the end they can even go straight to reinventing a UAV version of supersonic jet. But then it will no longer be a 1000$ spammable slightly modified commercial drone, it will have the price of a supersonic jet. As i said, force the cheap drones into a performance arms race, and they will stop being so cheap very quickly.

 

[Agent23]

In terms of the costs of training and equipping a western style infantry battalion with weapons and vehicles, it's little money.

Yeah, ok, suuure!

Battalion level. As in added to every line battalion.

So 1k soldiers and a lot of tech staying close together, sounds like a juicy target.

They can counter drones correctly. Might wanna stick them on a MRAP, armored car or 8x8 APC for frag resistance.
The alternate route as i mentioned is to just take any of the above that infantry already uses and has a RWS, then adding a software and sensor update to the RWS with a "CIWS MODE" button, and computer going

Yeah, I am sure that all the extra sensors, EM weapons and drones dying from a machinegun or interference is not something that makes you a juicy target.

"it flies, it dies".

Chaff flies.

It's a ranged weapon. If the infantry has to stray away many kilometers from vehicles and repel drone attacks while doing so by themselves, it better be doing something worth using the really expensive options.

This cuts the area of control.

And the prices of these evolved planes went up faster than the plane's altitudes.
Airforces shrank from tens of thousands of aircraft to thousands and then low hundreds for all but superpower ones. Spitfire alone was built in over 20k in just a decade, that's more than the whole standing USAF now, bah, probably more than all the world airforces combined right now.
Eventually that got us multi million dollar supersonic jets that cheap AA couldn't touch, and in turn AA started using fraction of a million dollar missiles to shoot them down.
Phantom was built in 5k, F-16 4.5k, and F-15 barely over 1k, and the 5th gens are being considered in hundreds usually.

No one needs a datadump about aerospace developmnet since WWII.

This is about a simple cost vs. benefit situation and a concentration of force and power projection situation.

If you overconcentrate you are vulnerable to artillery and missile fire, if you spread out you are vulnerable to drones.

And the current anti-air defenses created to take out expensive, fast missiles are not a good fit for swarms of cheap drone.


And drones can actually be used to smoke out your forces and paint a nice big artillery bull's eye on them.

The problem with drones is that they are cheap and spammable. Get them into a performance "arms race" against any weapon, drone, SPAAGS or anything that is in the same economic category, and there's no way prices won't go up, which in turn will make them less spammable, and in turn MANPADS will get back to being a worthwhile counter.

Or you can use a mix of cannon fodder drones, more capable and more expensive drones and artillelry.

For a person, not easy. But military grade aimbots are not a new technology, and they do it with supersonic missiles since longer than we are alive, what's a 100 or 300 km/h drone for them.

With what active sensors that the enemy can home in on?

They could do that. In the end they can even go straight to reinventing a UAV version of supersonic jet. But then it will no longer be a 1000$ spammable slightly modified commercial drone, it will have the price of a supersonic jet. As i said, force the cheap drones into a performance arms race, and they will stop being so cheap very quickly.

I jsuut loove how you overstretch everything, like for example improving drones to have better ele tronics hardening and maybe a better CPU that can run some more complext control software.

 

[Marduk]

Yeah, ok, suuure!

So 1k soldiers and a lot of tech staying close together, sounds like a juicy target.

So how is that different from an ordinary motorized or mechanized infantry battalion?
A few of decent AA systems can let the battalion safely deploy over 5-15 kilometers depending on the model and terrain.

Look how much juicy tech a battalion has by default. If you add 4 or 8 SPAAGs, it's not a massive difference in anything.

Yeah, I am sure that all the extra sensors, EM weapons and drones dying from a machinegun or interference is not something that makes you a juicy target.

No, we' re not talking about some Eritrean garrison battalion that has so little tech the enemy may not consider it worthy of even using a JDAM or artillery strike lmao, a first world military one already has a shitload of these things anyway.

Chaff flies.

Yeah, sure, look how well that does for multi million jets with EW pods and chaff dispensers bigger and heavier than the whole cheap drone.

This cuts the area of control.

"control" if we are talking infantry with no heavy weapons trying to sneak while drones fly overhead.
Add more AA if needed then. They need much less crew than WW2 ones now anyway, and may even get into semi-autonomous territory soon.
Either way, if the enemy is flying around with drones, trying to sneak around with unsupported infantry is futile either way because they will get spotted and then killed by light artillery if not drones themselves.

No one needs a datadump about aerospace developmnet since WWII.

This is about a simple cost vs. benefit situation and a concentration of force and power projection situation.

If you overconcentrate you are vulnerable to artillery and missile fire, if you spread out you are vulnerable to drones.

You are always vulnerable to that to some degree or another, it's just a question of how much of that enemy has available versus best targets and risk from countermeasures.
Not to mention that with some upgrades the more kinetic anti-drone systems can double as anti-missile ones too.

And the current anti-air defenses created to take out expensive, fast missiles are not a good fit for swarms of cheap drone.

True. Need to take several decades worth of step back for decent means.

And drones can actually be used to smoke out your forces and paint a nice big artillery bull's eye on them.

So can absolutely anything else. That's in fact no different from the purely recon drones of the past. Still, better whack whatever is flying and giving quality intel and fire correction data vs letting enemy know that within half a kilometer that direction because there's probably a SPAAG there (or it moved after shooting lol), flattening grid squares to play whack a mole like that is not something that any army can afford for long.

Or you can use a mix of cannon fodder drones, more capable and more expensive drones and artillelry.

You can. But the calculation is that however useful spotting the loose area where a cheap SPAAG is by having it knock down drones is, letting the drone fly over and provide proper spotting data is far worse.

With what active sensors that the enemy can home in on?

Who is talking about active sensors?
Even mk1 eyeball can do it with leet skillz. Failing that, electro-optics and thermals, we're not in the 70's anymore when that stuff was a multi million dollar luxury that you can maybe put on a bleeding edge fighter jet.

I jsuut loove how you overstretch everything, like for example improving drones to have better ele tronics hardening and maybe a better CPU that can run some more complext control software.

Can you? If only maneuvering made even slowass aircraft immune to flak... Guess no one figured that one out through a century of air warfare.
The problem is that the commercial drones aren't made to take aggressive maneuvering while loaded to their payload limit with a small bomb. Sure, you can upscale them, give them bigger power reserve, more lift, add EM hardening and so on, but keep going that way and soon using $30k laser guided APKWS or 1000$ 40mm AHEAD rounds against them becomes a decent deal again because your drone will now cost $50k instead of 500$.
Upgrades aren't free, citizen. These drones are so cheap only because of how small and mundane mass produced parts they are made out of, plus the economy of scale of building them for random kids all over the world who want a 3 digit USD drone. Start custom building everything as high performance and built to military grade EM resistance standards, and see the cost then.

 

[Agent23]

So how is that different from an ordinary motorized or mechanized infantry battalion?
A few of decent AA systems can let the battalion safely deploy over 5-15 kilometers depending on the model and terrain.

Look how much juicy tech a battalion has by default. If you add 4 or 8 SPAAGs, it's not a massive difference in anything.

I don't know, is the standard infantry battalion made out of anti-air ammo including missiles?

I think not.

No, we' re not talking about some Eritrean garrison battalion that has so little tech the enemy may not consider it worthy of even using a JDAM or artillery strike lmao, a first world military one already has a shitload of these things anyway.


Yeah, sure, look how well that does for multi million jets with EW pods and chaff dispensers bigger and heavier than the whole cheap drone.

"control" if we are talking infantry with no heavy weapons trying to sneak while drones fly overhead.
Add more AA if needed then. They need much less crew than WW2 ones now anyway, and may even get into semi-autonomous territory soon.
Either way, if the enemy is flying around with drones, trying to sneak around with unsupported infantry is futile either way because they will get spotted and then killed by light artillery if not drones themselves.

And maybe they are forced to disperse, maybe their heavier gear is taken out already via missiles or artillery, etc.

You are always vulnerable to that to some degree or another, it's just a question of how much of that enemy has available versus best targets and risk from countermeasures.
Not to mention that with some upgrades the more kinetic anti-drone systems can double as anti-missile ones too.

Yeah, sure, and that will cost how much again?

True. Need to take several decades worth of step back for decent means.

And rework it how much so as to hit smaller targets, with smaller crosssections flying much lower?

So can absolutely anything else. That's in fact no different from the purely recon drones of the past. Still, better whack whatever is flying and giving quality intel and fire correction data vs letting enemy know that within half a kilometer that direction because there's probably a SPAAG there (or it moved after shooting lol), flattening grid squares to play whack a mole like that is not something that any army can afford for long.

because decoys are not a thing, didn't iron Dome allegedly get triggered by pigeons?

You can. But the calculation is that however useful spotting the loose area where a cheap SPAAG is by having it knock down drones is, letting the drone fly over and provide proper spotting data is far worse.

Who is talking about active sensors?
Even mk1 eyeball can do it with leet skillz. Failing that, electro-optics and thermals, we're not in the 70's anymore when that stuff was a multi million dollar luxury that you can maybe put on a bleeding edge fighter jet.

And that has been deployed and shown to work for the task when and where,exactly?

Can you? If only maneuvering made even slowass aircraft immune to flak... Guess no one figured that one out through a century of air warfare.
The problem is that the commercial drones aren't made to take aggressive maneuvering while loaded to their payload limit with a small bomb. Sure, you can upscale them, give them bigger power reserve, more lift, add EM hardening and so on, but keep going that way and soon using $30k laser guided APKWS or 1000$ 40mm AHEAD rounds against them becomes a decent deal again because your drone will now cost $50k instead of 500$.

yeah, because electromagnetic shielding is not commercially used and available...
And even for system critical military applications it has not been around for a long while...

Upgrades aren't free, citizen. These drones are so cheap only because of how small and mundane mass produced parts they are made out of, plus the economy of scale of building them for random kids all over the world who want a 3 digit USD drone. Start custom building everything as high performance and built to military grade EM resistance standards, and see the cost then.

Well, citizen you don't seem to understand that there is a huge room between zomgoverpriced hangar queen and cheap ass flying lawnmower.
Observe.

 

[Marduk]

I don't know, is the standard infantry battalion made out of anti-air ammo including missiles?

I think not.

Depends on whose standards, but as you can see, it's not anything juicier than whatever multi million dollar vehicles carrying the infantry normally.

And maybe they are forced to disperse, maybe their heavier gear is taken out already via missiles or artillery, etc.

In which case they are no longer an effective unit anyway.

Yeah, sure, and that will cost how much again?

No more than several armored vehicles in the battalion, possibly less than one.

And rework it how much so as to hit smaller targets, with smaller crosssections flying much lower?

Usually not much lower, radio will drop link if they are.
Smaller but much slower, so overall evens out.
Worse case scenario, switch gun to 30-40mm with HE proxy fuzing, not that expensive old tech.

because decoys are not a thing, didn't iron Dome allegedly get triggered by pigeons?

What decoys? Will you run after the drone towing decoys on a line like a kite? It's not a ballistic missile reentry vehicle with hundreds of kilograms of spare payload and budget in millions of dollars, it's a 500$ commercial drone already made as cheap as possible.
If it uses .50 or something like that, it's not a $40k missile, no one cars if sometimes it whacks some pigeons.

And that has been deployed and shown to work for the task when and where,exactly?

The truck i pictured? Already deployed as you can read, using thermals.
If you played War Thunder you would even know Poland modded Shilkas to do it over 20 years ago.

yeah, because electromagnetic shielding is not commercially used and available...
And even for system critical military applications it has not been around for a long while...

I wasn't arguing that it's impossible, i was arguing that it's not cheap. It is one of the reasons why military crap is normally not cheap.

Well, citizen you don't seem to understand that there is a huge room between zomgoverpriced hangar queen and cheap ass flying lawnmower.
Observe.

Yeah, vacuum metallizing parts for a several hundred $ commercial drone and then rebuilding it to take that into account, surely that won't multiply its price.

 

[Agent23]

Depends on whose standards, but as you can see, it's not anything juicier than whatever multi million dollar vehicles carrying the infantry normally.

Yay, even larger units with more costly equipment.

In which case they are no longer an effective unit anyway.

Yeah, and the leftovers can be mawled down more effectively with cheap drones.

No more than several armored vehicles in the battalion, possibly less than one.

Yeah, surez because we have not seen larger vehicles getting to go boom because of Geran drones.

Usually not much lower, radio will drop link if they are.
Smaller but much slower, so overall evens out.

Yeah, ok, sure citation needed.

Worse case scenario, switch gun to 30-40mm with HE proxy fuzing, not that expensive old tech.

And you got how many rounds of ther laying around?

What decoys? Will you run after the drone towing decoys on a line like a kite? It's not a ballistic missile reentry vehicle with hundreds of kilograms of spare payload and budget in millions of dollars, it's a 500$ commercial drone already made as cheap as possible.
If it uses .50 or something like that, it's not a $40k missile, no one cars if sometimes it whacks some pigeons.

Oh, I don't know, I assume some foldable piece of plywood or cardboard thet is metalized and had a small, oneshot motor that costd a few 10s of USD could be deployed a few kilometers close to where you are losing your drones.
Maybe they can be deployed by another, larger drone.
And by thet I mean, a few hundred, enough to overwhelm tergrting/give more of a chance to the real drones.

And also you could add some normal bombs to explode and disperse chaff when hit.

Got any real data about how efficient much your glorified technical trucks are?

The truck i pictured? Already deployed as you can read, using thermals.
If you played War Thunder you would even know Poland modded Shilkas to do it over 20 years ago.

>War Thunder...
You are seriously using a MMO as a reference here...

I wasn't arguing that it's impossible, i was arguing that it's not cheap. It is one of the reasons why military crap is normally not cheap.

Yeah, ok, sure, cause you don't have the habit of arguing just for the lulz.
Including about stuff you don't know anything about, like Bulgarian media and politics.

Yeah, vacuum metallizing parts for a several hundred $ commercial drone and then rebuilding it to take that into account, surely that won't multiply its price.

Orz you can buy the drone components and metalize or replace the parts you want to serve as EM shielding...
Or just outright pay the manufacturer under the table to make a slightly more expensive and more rugged drone, given the volumes we are talking about they might be happy to do that.

 

[Zachowon]

Large units have the manpower and capability to enforce such a large area of influence.
From jammer to SHORAD/VSHORAD, it would not be hard to defend them during this time.
He'll, if you do any research you can find out the US Army is investing in a solution, with the new STRYKER SHORAD, and potentially DEW in dealing with drones

 

[Agent23]

Large units have the manpower and capability to enforce such a large area of influence.
From jammer to SHORAD/VSHORAD, it would not be hard to defend them during this time.
He'll, if you do any research you can find out the US Army is investing in a solution, with the new STRYKER SHORAD, and potentially DEW in dealing with drones

Questions are.
Does it work?
Does it scale?

He will, who will what, my dude?

 

[Marduk]

Yay, even larger units with more costly equipment.

Yeah, and the leftovers can be mawled down more effectively with cheap drones.

Not everyone is Russia, forbidding crippled units from withdrawing to reform

Yeah, surez because we have not seen larger vehicles getting to go boom because of Geran drones.

In case i was not clear enough, the point of SPAAGs is to shoot down the drones, not to soak their attacks with their sheer size.

Yeah, ok, sure citation needed.

The Earth being fucking round is your citation, radio horizon, have you heard of it?
This is why on most kamikaze drone videos as the drone goes down and closes to target the video feed starts going to shit few seconds before it hits the target.

And you got how many rounds of ther laying around?

Plenty, this shit is made and stored by countless countries.

Oh, I don't know, I assume some foldable piece of plywood or cardboard thet is metalized and had a small, oneshot motor that costd a few 10s of USD could be deployed a few kilometers close to where you are losing your drones.
Maybe they can be deployed by another, larger drone.
And by thet I mean, a few hundred, enough to overwhelm tergrting/give more of a chance to the real drones.

By definition it has to have the same parts as the cheapest drone... So it's basically most of the way to a real one in cost and logistics already.

And also you could add some normal bombs to explode and disperse chaff when hit.

These drones have payload capacity on the level of few kilograms, you can't load them with random shit like a jet bomber.

Got any real data about how efficient much your glorified technical trucks are?

If i had i could not share it, lmao. But many countries add passive optical as alternate, and in few cases, only targeting method for their SPAAGs, regardless of what chassis they are mounted on.

>War Thunder...
You are seriously using a MMO as a reference here...

Yes, google the name in wiki if you don't believe.

Yeah, ok, sure, cause you don't have the habit of arguing just for the lulz.
Including about stuff you don't know anything about, like Bulgarian media and politics.

Likewise.

Orz you can buy the drone components and metalize or replace the parts you want to serve as EM shielding...

Yes, you theoretically can, who's going to do that for free for tens or hundreds of thousands of drones so that it doesn't add to the cost?

Or just outright pay the manufacturer under the table to make a slightly more expensive and more rugged drone, given the volumes we are talking about they might be happy to do that.

>slightly more expensive
No, that's not how economies of scale work. The whole lines that make the parts would need to get much more expensive.

 

[Agent23]

Not everyone is Russia, forbidding crippled units from withdrawing to reform

Or get massacred by remote deployable landmines, artillery and drones while retreating...

In case i was not clear enough, the point of SPAAGs is to shoot down the drones, not to soak their attacks with their sheer size.

They have a rate of fire, limited ammo, can not defend the whole sky, will get smokes out more easily and hit with artillery/missiles while they are chewing through drones...

The Earth being fucking round is your citation, radio horizon, have you heard of it?

Yup, bouncing signals off the Ionespohere is not a thing, nor is retranslation, or purely computerized guidance.

This is why on most kamikaze drone videos as the drone goes down and closes to target the video feed starts going to shit few seconds before it hits the target.

Yeah, ok, sure.

Plenty, this shit is made and stored by countless countries.

Ammo has a shelf life, and what about spare partd for the machines?
And new ammo production?

By definition it has to have the same parts as the cheapest drone... So it's basically most of the way to a real one in cost and logistics already.

Whose definition???

These drones have payload capacity on the level of few kilograms, you can't load them with random shit like a jet bomber.

So, larger drone dumps them a kilometer or so out of the other side's AA renge.Ar several drones do that.

Maybe dual purpose ones that can also shoot missiles after the enemy's AA is degraded.

If i had i could not share it, lmao. But many countries add passive optical as alternate, and in few cases, only targeting method for their SPAAGs, regardless of what chassis they are mounted on.

Yeah, ok, I will believe your hearsay, (not).

Yes, google the name in wiki if you don't believe.

I have seen it, it is basically the precursor of the ZSU, I think.

Likewise.

From you, that is quite rich.
If I am a pot them you are that light absorbing carbon material the Saudis invented.

Yes, you theoretically can, who's going to do that for free for tens or hundreds of thousands of drones so that it doesn't add to the cost?

Obviously you'd have to pay slightly more per drone, but suppliers are willing to bend over backwards for huge customers that can be a reliable source of income.

>slightly more expensive
No, that's not how economies of scale work. The whole lines that make the parts would need to get much more expensive.

Criterion needed.


In any case, back to the original discussion thet is again derailed by Slav autism.

Much of this tech, drones of all kinds, powered exoskeletons and the like should make the individual Voter/Citizen a much more capable fighter.

As to the states problem with churn, well, no one said thet people could not get a career our of all this as well as voting rights.

Out of the better people, some will get promoted, which will kinda have to extend their service direction.



So if you are good enough, you might stay longer, say 2 years for a grunt + 2 for sergeant, +2 for officers.


With some of the prerequisites training being put into civil defense classes in schools.

 

[Marduk]

Or get massacred by remote deployable landmines, artillery and drones while retreating...

Because staying in one spots really makes you immune to these things...

They have a rate of fire, limited ammo, can not defend the whole sky, will get smokes out more easily and hit with artillery/missiles while they are chewing through drones...

They can relocate after shooting much like SPGs, some can even move when shooting unlike SPGs, they have a rate of fire in hundreds of rounds per barrel and ammo reserve in thousands

Yup, bouncing signals off the Ionespohere is not a thing, nor is retranslation, or purely computerized guidance.

I thought we were talking about small cheap drones...

Yeah, ok, sure.

Ammo has a shelf life, and what about spare partd for the machines?
And new ammo production?

We're talking about the same stuff as used by ship CIWS and IFVs in many cases, or plain ol' M2's, so you can cease this whatabouting, it obviously has plenty of production, and unlike advanced missiles it lasts very long.

Whose definition???

Who cares?

So, larger drone dumps them a kilometer or so out of the other side's AA renge.Ar several drones do that.

And that chaff will do a whole lot to... electrooptics. Sensor fusion is a bitch.

Maybe dual purpose ones that can also shoot missiles after the enemy's AA is degraded.

And then they eat a MANPADS because they are more costly than one.

Yeah, ok, I will believe your hearsay, (not).

Yeah, several defense companies that make millions of dollars worth of SPAAGs are stupid and use targeting systems that don't work since decades, only you know what SPAAG targeting works.

I have seen it, it is basically the precursor of the ZSU, I think.

>precursor
Are you trolling or this bad at English?
That was doable for a mid income country with electronics from the age of Windows 98 and 32 bit Pentiums:

Ukraine’s Updated, ZSU-23-4 Shilka Air Defense Guns

By: Warren Gray Copyright © 2022 “The ZSU-23-4 Shilka…with its four 23 mm autocannons… was a revolutionary (system), proving to be an extremely effective weapon against enemy attack aircraft and helicopters under every weather and light condition…The appearance of the Shilka caused...

gunpowdermagazine.com

Most of the problems and weaknesses associated with the early, ZSU-23-4 Shilka series were the result of RPK-2 Gun Dish radar limitations. The Polish solution was to bypass the radar altogether with their Biała conversion, relying instead upon passive, electro-optical and infrared detection systems, which effectively makes the Biała undetectable to enemy aircraft through electronic emissions. However, it also significantly decreases detection range and reaction time, which is another weakness in itself.

From you, that is quite rich.
If I am a pot them you are that light absorbing carbon material the Saudis invented.

Blahblahblah, i know you enjoy pointless shitflinging so you start it so often, but we can stop wasting perfectly good keyboards on it.

Obviously you'd have to pay slightly more per drone, but suppliers are willing to bend over backwards for huge customers that can be a reliable source of income.

Criterion needed.

Sorry, i don't own a drone factory.
Citation needed that it can be done cheaply, take your claim and burden of proof
The reality is that so far no one is doing it.

 

[Agent23]

Because staying in one spots really makes you immune to these things...

Running right into an artillery deployed minefield doesn't help, either.
Or getting pinned down at a position and getting slaughtered.

They can relocate after shooting much like SPGs, some can even move when shooting unlike SPGs, they have a rate of fire in hundreds of rounds per barrel and ammo reserve in thousands

Yeah, within a certain radius, so they can still be hit by laser guided shells.

I thought we were talking about small cheap drones...

I am talking about multiple types of you have not noticed, platform that can help out at longer range and cheap drones that do the martyrdom into haven shit.
Why are we limiting ourselves to just one type of drone again?

We're talking about the same stuff as used by ship CIWS and IFVs in many cases, or plain ol' M2's, so you can cease this whatabouting, it obviously has plenty of production, and unlike advanced missiles it lasts very long.

How Long Does Ammo Last (And How to Tell If It's Bad)?

What is the shelf life of ammunition? Has your ammo gone bad? Learn about helpful ammo storage tips in order to avoid bullet degradation, moisture, and more.

proarmory.com

Guaranteed for 10 years, can stretch for more with proper storage.

Who cares?

I don't know, the guy that was making the remark I was responding to?

And that chaff will do a whole lot to... electrooptics. Sensor fusion is a bitch.

It will make problems for any radar being used.

And then they eat a MANPADS because they are more costly than one.

Yeah, except they will dump their decoys and missiles from beyond the aoe of said manpads.

Yeah, several defense companies that make millions of dollars worth of SPAAGs are stupid and use targeting systems that don't work since decades, only you know what SPAAG targeting works.

After the problems they have had with stuff like resuming stinger production and increasing JAVELIN PRODUCTION, and all the problems the F-35 had had...well, they are not stupid ad much as they are greedy, and they will try and get the most money for the least effort/maximize profit per unit.

>precursor
Are you trolling or this bad at English?
That was doable for a mid income country with electronics from the age of Windows 98 and 32 bit Pentiums:

Well I am sorry if I do not care about the designations of every single piece of equipment on the planet unlike some obsessively compulsive people on here that can't stop trying to throw around their alleged credentials in a discussion thet HAS ZERO TO DO WITH THIS SHIT TO BEGIN WITH!

Ukraine’s Updated, ZSU-23-4 Shilka Air Defense Guns

By: Warren Gray Copyright © 2022 “The ZSU-23-4 Shilka…with its four 23 mm autocannons… was a revolutionary (system), proving to be an extremely effective weapon against enemy attack aircraft and helicopters under every weather and light condition…The appearance of the Shilka caused...

gunpowdermagazine.com

Most of the problems and weaknesses associated with the early, ZSU-23-4 Shilka series were the result of RPK-2 Gun Dish radar limitations. The Polish solution was to bypass the radar altogether with their Biała conversion, relying instead upon passive, electro-optical and infrared detection systems, which effectively makes the Biała undetectable to enemy aircraft through electronic emissions. However, it also significantly decreases detection range and reaction time, which is another weakness in itself.

Yeah, yeah, sure, a piece of equipment that has what track record against modern drones again?

Blahblahblah, i know you enjoy pointless shitflinging so you start it so often, but we can stop wasting perfectly good keyboards on it.

Interesting how this happens when you are around.

Sorry, i don't own a drone factory.
Citation needed that it can be done cheaply, take your claim and burden of proof
The reality is that so far no one is doing it.

Great, another non-argument.

 

[Scottty]

If you shoot down every drone that comes within a certain radius of your position, you are thereby telling the OpFor where the stuff that you don't want them to see is.
Just saying...

 

[Zachowon]

Questions are.
Does it work?
Does it scale?

He will, who will what, my dude?

Hell* my phone keeps autocorrecting it to He'll

Does the M-SHORAD work?
Yes.
We actually switched fron a Vulcan mounted APC to the Avenger because of helicopters being our main problem and missiles work better.
We know the DEW is in development and works to a degree as we have seen versions used in many ways.

And it scales to the level needed for M-SHORAD.

And for some if the other stuff you brought up woth Marduk,
Modern drones is a catch all term, because of how small they are is the big verity of them. You have to account for all the sort.

If you shoot down every drone that comes within a certain radius of your position, you are thereby telling the OpFor where the stuff that you don't want them to see is.
Just saying...

With a C-RAAM maybe, but that would be outside artillery range, and have the most AD protections.
The M-SHORADS are specifically for mobility. The M stands for maneuver. It allows them to be able to move and engage, and if you are able to have them everywhere, then it doesn't really matter what they are protecting.
Add in Jamming effects and the like.
By the time you figure out what is there it may be to late

 

[Agent23]

Hell* my phone keeps autocorrecting it to He'll

Go to your keyboard's dictionary settings and delete it.

 

[Zachowon]

Go to your keyboard's dictionary settings and delete it.

Will do that, because I use Hell more then He'll

 

[Agent23]

Will do that, because I use Hell more then He'll

Might wanna give that dictionary a nice purge, too.

 

[Zachowon]

Might wanna give that dictionary a nice purge, too.

That's just me being horrible at my native tongue of English