Two ASB scenarios related to Japan

They are closer to the US which can get more troops faster to them than the British can and they are no longer close to China and Korea or the Dutch with which to play off of. So their entire strategic calculus changes, that and in their minds, this occurred after Commodore Perry came calling and thus it is a sign from the Heavens. So an alliance which greatly benefits both parties and brings in American investments as Japan is seen as a midway refueling stop and transhipment area.



Their ships pre-Sakoku policy were ocean going and were sufficient for travel, they won't win a naval fight with a European ship which is more manurable and heavily armed, till they start mounting cannons that is or get lucky and face an idiot Captain who allows himself to be boarded. That said, the European Navy is irrelevant in the mid to late 1500s as they have yet to get sufficient numbers to dominate the trade routes and the bulk will be tied up fighting the Ottomans who actively contested them for control of the Indian Ocean for centuries. So they by dint of position and numbers take this easily and after a few skirmishes with the Europeans, they rapidly start building new ships to counter. This in turn means they will ally with the Indonesians, Mughals, and Iranians, and Ottomans to secure their western flank while guarding their Eastern Flank where the Europeans Americas Colonies will be building the naval ships that enabled the Europeans to start gaining a decisive naval advantage in the mid 1600s.

If Hideyoshi or another Unifier can keep focus and a long term view combined with the ample forests of Japan and elsewhere near them, they can build sufficient ships to counter the European ship building spree and lock out the Europeans from the core Pacific and Indian Ocean areas and buy time for China to get its shit back together which has other knock on effects later.


All this outward reaching empire building, and alliance building, from an isolated location in east bumfuck north central Pacific, is patently ridiculous. All the more so from a starting point when the premise is they are teleported mid-ocean before having met any sea-going Europeans. Japan's geographic horizons were far more local, towards opposite shores in Korea and China, for easy piracy and trade. Longer distance enterprises pre-Sakoku were all copycat efforts from after contact with the Portuguese and Spanish. Now even their familiar local neighbors are gone. Distant seas look even more like an inhospitable, here be dragons, situation, quite literally.

Tamatori_being_pursued_bya_dragon.jpg


Even a couple decades after Portuguese contact, Japanese global geographic comprehension, the kind needed to map out Oceania and make alliances with Indian Kingdoms and Ottomans and all that, was pretty sparse and poor compared to the geographic and geopolitical savvy of native east coast North Americans like Massasoit in New England or the Abenaki in Maine
 
I find these predictions for speedy Japanese expansion in both these scenarios to be *massive* overestimates.

Chiron is almost treating it as if any teleportation or time-travel of a territory also comes with a message from the supernatural spirits that says, "You are now in a new location, show us how fast you can expand, go!" and the political leaders of the teleported land are *compelled* to go for maximum expansion, for our entertainment, as if they are in a boardgame.

I don't see any reason to assume or expect any of this.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean its not valid. That is an A Priori statement.

On the 1854 scenario:



No. 1854 Japan isn't in shape to just go imperializing right away. Japan needs to sort out its internal situation and get a real national government going first and figure out how to react to foreigners demanding access. In OTL, Japanese adventurers didn't start doing overseas expeditions until 20 years after the Perry expedition. (the Taiwan punitive expedition). While trying to copy western ships, Japanese crews weren't skilled enough to crew western style steam-ships across the ocean until the 1870s.

The Shogun, Tokugawa Iesada, is in firm control at this time. Nor do they need "western ships" to reach Hawaii. Meiji doesn't become a thing till Tokugawa Yoshinobu just implodes in 1867 and effectively resigned.

While Hawaii is weaker, smaller population neighbor than Korea, China, or China's Taiwan province, it was frequented in the 1850s and beyond by American, British, French, and Russian ships that could blow anything the Japanese had and could operate out of the water. Also, while Japan on the map is somewhat close to Midway island, that is still a long distance (like at least Key West Florida to Maine) from Midway to Oahu or Hawaii's big island.

And irrelevant, as neither of those powers cared about Hawaii till the 1890s when the US began the process of annexing it. What matters is who can pour in troops faster and sustain the attrition and will to fight longer.

American interests were getting pretty strongly established in Hawaii from the 1840s and 1850s. It's proximity to the new Japanese trading partner will probably only accelerate that US interest.

Those interests had no teeth till the late 1880s and 90s, till then, Congress wasn't going to bankroll an intervention when it had large areas of its interior to still pacify and Mexico's instability to the south. Britain is too busy elsewhere to really do anything other than maybe sting. And the Japanese have a cultural memory of going up against a superior navy and it not mattering one way or another to the ground war they fought in Korea.

The French might contest this, but they were also tied up elsewhere. Russia doesn't really care about Hawaii, too busy elsewhere. Germany wasn't a thing at this moment of time.

On the 1540 scenario:

The Japanese don't have reliable or sophisticated long-distance sailing technology at this time. Their traders, monks, and pirates, mainly traveled short distances on nearly inland seas like the the Sea of Japan, Yellow Sea, South China Sea. They can investigate, but in most directions, they will be shocked to find...nothing.

The Japanese merchants were trading as far away as Byzantium in the late 790s, multiple byzantine instruments made their way to the Heian Court in this time period. The Japanese also captured multiple ocean going vessels from the Mongols.

They had extensive ocean contacts with India, Indonesia, and with the Siberians and Inuits. They can also do star reckoning and calculate very accurately how far they have shifted and where to go to re-establish contact with China and other trade partners.

They had the technology, the scientists, knowledge, and the resources to do this. Its a matter of the Daimyo ordering the investments be made.

Unless Japanese leaders get a detailed briefing with maps and so on from the ASBs, all the Japanese can tell went down is that sunset and dawn hours are messed up, and in a couple weeks/months they'll find that trading neighbors like Korea, China, and the Ryukyu Kingdom have vanished. They won't know what happened, and can only guess at things like maybe the sea God Ryujin/Watatsumi grew angry and swallowed their neighboring countries. Their focus will be as much on propitiating angry sea gods as exploring the edges of their new surroundings.

Most Nobles will figure out quickly from their court's wise men that they shifted far away from their normal spot and exactly how far they have to adjust sea voyages. Expeditions will be sent out immediately. The propitiating will be a matter of course, but that is mainly for the gullible sheep of the masses. Most nobles are more practical.


No they didn't. They had no matchlock technology for personal firearms anything like the European muskets or arquebuses of the day. Don't confuse the fact that they had the good blacksmithing skills to soon start copying them once they had some and saw them in action with the idea that they had these pre-western contact. Personal weapons were still archery, sword, and spear-based. Cannons were probably around, maybe small crew weapons like a fire lance or hand cannons, but the shooter in those cases always needs helpers to fire and aim their weapons.


Dude, they first got a taste of gunpowder in the Mongol Invasions and captured quite a bit of it. Teppō from 1270 was known in Japan and fire lances were in widespread use by the 15th century. 1510 matchlock pistols of Chinese origin are recorded in use. Even if the Portuguese never arrived, the Japanese were well on their way to an independently developed firearms industry and was experimenting with flintlocks before the Tokugawas enforced Sakoku. This Eurocentrism is unfounded.

Also the Japanese produced more guns in the 16th Century than the rest of the world combined by a vast amount and was transitioning to an all gun army when the Shogunate went Sakoku for everyone. Europe in that same timeframe was pikes, and more pikes, and stick a few guns here and there. So tactically the Japanese were outpacing Europe, so good thing Tokugawa threw out the baby with the bath water for them.


No. Why would they run into the Spanish galleons? The Spanish galleons went way to the south, in the tropics, and they never went to Hawaii. The whole premise presented here vastly underestimates distances in the Pacific. Distances between each major segment of the Pacific where there are islands and people are vast, like distances between Europe and the US east coast, and the Japanese have no experience, and no motive, to go that far.

Because, their Astronomers can crunch numbers and star positions, Daimyos have an incentive to figure out what is out there, and they do have cultural and trade ties with the world in both obvious and subtle ways few appreciate and want to re-establish contact as well as assess the new strategic outlook. Many of them are also dependent on taxing said trade as well.

Seriously dude, ditch the Eurocentric nonsense and look at what other cultures actually had done well before Europe came along. Especially the Oceania Cultures who used canoes to expand and trade from Africa to the Americas and traded with the Aborigines of Australia and absent European Conquest, may even have settled in Australia.

For Japan which is far more capable than the Oceanian Cultures, exploring south is a strategic imperative and easier logistically for them as they have proper ocean going ships which can carry large amounts of supplies for said trips.
 
@Chiron - What was stopping the Japanese from doing your master plan from their historic location? Did meeting Catholic missionaries made them incredibly shy or something? Why didn't they have any Zheng He style voyagers pre-1540?

If the Japanese were so irresistibly, omnidirectionally expansionist in the 1500s-early 1800s era, why did they:

1. Basically *reduce* their involvement in the Wako piracy business between the 1300s/1400s and the 1500s in favor of Chinese crews and captains.

2. Not fully take over Honshu from the Emishi/Ainu until the 1500s, and not touch Hokkaido until then.

3. Not levy any conquest or tribute on the Ryukyus until 1609

4. Ignore Taiwan for centuries, not colonize until the Dutch, Spanish, Chinese all took their shot, and only get involved in the 1870s

5. Not fully even populate or colonize all Sakhalin and the Kuriles during the Tokugawa era

This Eurocentrism is unfounded.

I think your estimates are Eurocentric in implanting European (specifically West European) style goals in non-European minds.

I did allow independent development/advancement of gunpowder weapons as a definite possibility in my opening post.

The problem with your referring to pre-Sakoku, is that anything pre-Sakoku (pre-1639-ish), *but* still post 1543, is *contaminated* by recurring interaction with Western European influences.

I am interested in cites for any claimed technical levels achieved on shipping, long-distance travel, specific firearms types, precision astronomy in Japan up to 1543.

You mentioned Japanese astronomers figuring everything out about the displacement very quickly- Would that be as helpful for changes in longitude as changes in latitude? Were the Japanese as advanced, or ahead of the Chinese? By the late 1500s, the Ming Court, was relying on European Jesuits for more precise astronomical calculations than their own guys could do, so that was a sign of Europe being ahead of China by that time.
 
Each scenario was separated by a 1. and a 2. which clearly separated them. The other posters clearly were able to see what I scenario I was responding to. Which makes the issue you as others could not determine what scenario you were responding to.

Wrong. You used that for your brief 1st post but not the 2nd one I replied to.

Uh no, because proper storage of food results in food that lasts years and we still use many of those ancient techniques today to store dried food for years. Japan also has access to shipping and is right on the Oceania Trade Routes which were quite extensive and stretched all the way to India and Africa in the west, Americas in the East and North and Australia to the South. So the food issue is a non issue.

Proper storage in what circumstances? I know China at least had frequent famines throughout its history so would be surprised to hear that Japan is greatly different, especially in the 1540 scenario.

In either time period but especially the former its definitely NOT on all the major trade routes after its moved. Its likely to be discovered or even contact other IF it breaks the isolation its centred its policy on in the 1853 scenario but markedly less so in the 1450 one.

Given the historical fishing in Lake Biwa alone, yes these are primary fisheries. And given Japan's historical and large merchant marine and pirate fleets, they certainly have the fleet to explore and in the process hit the Oceania cultures which solves all their imagined problems you think they will have.

I'll take your word for it on local fisheries.

In 1853 when their spent centuries in deliberate isolation? In 1540 when they have how much deep ocean exploration experience? As opposed to going via well known routes to nearby states/islands such as Korea, China, Taiwan etc?


You are making a controversy where none exists. The Japanese have dealt with Tsunamis for millennia and developed a culturally ingrained system of dealing with them. It also helps that their protective terrain is not paved over like in this modern era and the heartland is inland and not threatened by Tsunamis. So Cascadia is nothing new to them, they shake it off, honor the dead, appease the Kamis, and move on. Just as they did in 1700 when it occurred, and given it hit Oceania and those cultures weren't wiped out, you are making up an existential threat where none exists.

My point was that they will be hit when it comes and be hit markedly harder as their closer to the source. You were the one that basically argued it wouldn't influence them. Possibly it was bad phasing on your part but it will definitely hurt them.
 
What happens to Korea in either of these two scenarios?

In the 1854 scenario and map, Sakhalin sticks up between the Aleutian Islands (then part of Russian America) and the Kurils are close to the Aleutians.

in 1854, the Russians and Japanese had a condominium over Sakhalin, (kind of amazing considering Japan’s isolation policy!) and the Russian claim to the northern and central Kurils was more strongly asserted tha Japan’s.

would Sakhalin and the Kurils, in their new locations, have been included by the Russians in the 1867 sale of Alaska to America?
 
In terms of Korea, without Japan as an even partial counter source I would say its likely to be even more under the thumb of China when the latter is strong.

Of course in 1854 the Qing are seriously starting to falter while Russia is growing more powerful to the north. Its possible that Britain might seek to step in to support China and - probably more importantly - keep Russian access to ice free ports as limited as possible. Which could set up some interesting scenarios. Plus how long does Japan stay in isolation here and assuming we get the radical reforming of much of Japanese society of OTL what directions does it look to? West would seem logical as its what they know but the distance is a big barrier now at least until Japan has a powerful navy to project [and protect] its influence.

Good question about Sakhalin and the Kurils. If Russia sold its claims to them to the US - assuming this is still occurring - then that makes Japan and the US very close neighbours.
 

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