Transinsanity thread

[ShadowArxxy]

I just wanna know who the hell is making all these pronoun rules?

All I see is randos making these videos, like they're not a governing authority just some random tik toker.

There are no governing authorities for the English language and the United States would pointedly ignore them even if there were.

That said, the whole argument about singular they as a generic or non gender specific pronoun being totally unacceptable "because grammar!" is completely absurd considering singular they has been historically established as absolutely and unquestionably gramatically correct; it just sounds a little unusual to many modern English speakers because it's less popular in the current vernacular.

 

[Abhorsen]

Fraternal birth order effect is a thing. Which is something that does happen before birth technically, but isn't strictly genetic.
Funny enough, it also demonstrates that there are have to be many different biological routes to the same forms of atypical sexual tendencies.

So to cut through some of the bs here, I'll quickly cover some basic things:
Fraternal Birth Order: Yes, it exists. No, it doesn't imply that it doesn't happen from birth, just that it isn't genetic. It might be that it's hormones given off by the pregnant mother during birth for all we know. But even if that's not the case, we have a whole lot of evidence that it's basically immutable from a very young age (well before kindergarten). This includes that all the 'ex'-gay organizations eventually shut themselves down. Conversion therapy has a very long and well developed track record of not working even with the convertee trying their best, which makes it immutable for all practical purposes.

So this:

Between the "abuse effect" and the cultural differences, i think it's established that it is possible to manipulate the sexuality of a person after birth, even though the exact mechanisms aren't well explored, their reliability is hard to quantify, and researching it further is both politically and ethically challenging... though it has to be done as early as possible for effectiveness, early teens at the latest, which does raise certain alarm bells with initiatives like early childhood sexual education and drag queen story hour, while also having implications for discussions around related topics, like conversion therapy generally not working (generally too late), and the leftist meme of "if being gay is a choice then choose to be gay to prove it" (it's not exactly choice to be abused and you're probably too old).

Is basically not true and impossible, at least passed very young ages (like pre-k ish is well past it becoming immutable from what I've read).

Interestingly, fraternal birth order makes some sense from an evolutionary POV: evolutionarily, having a successful nephew is about as useful as having a successful grandkid (25% shared genes), so at some point it makes sense to stop competing over a possibly limited number of females and have kids competing over similarly limited resources, and instead just work to help the family out. With homosexuality being so prominent in nature, it strikes me as a possible explanation of why there seems to be an evolutionary reason for it.

Add to that the well observed ability of traumatic events in childhood, especially sexual abuse, to correlate with development of many types of unusual sexual behaviors both more and less illegal, and here you have a psychological, post-birth route to it too. Not to mention that we even have historical and current society wide cases with certain odd cultures, like ancient Greece and modern Afghanistan, that have an unusual numbers of men attracted to boys.

In regards to gay kids being more likely to be abused, a lot of that is that they are more likely to go out and do risky stuff and also more likely to become homeless ( a huge percentage of homeless kids are LGBT because it's pretty rare for kids to be kicked out of homes in general).

And then there are the more and less famous cases of adult men, sometimes pretty old and normal, with a wife and children, suddenly deciding that they want to be a woman, which is even beyond the above pattern.

This is not evidence for gay conversion, because being gay and being trans are two completely separate things biologically that are just associated together politically. Note that we don't have a ton of trans animals, but we do have gay animals. This is because actual trans people suffer(ed) from a mental disorder of gender dysphoria. One of the treatments for this is surgery, and it seems to work on some people. But it being a mental disorder of hating your own body, it can be caused, (you can give yourself a disorder if you try hard enough), and it can be confused with other things, like having a fetish for dressing up like a woman (not trans) or a variety of other stuff. It's also socially advantageous. There's also a fair number of people who just don't give a shit about looking like a girl or guy (that's me) and some of those think that makes them trans (that was me years ago) when it doesn't.

 

[Yinko]

As to the bolded: I suspect most cultures that exploit boys in such a way, do so because of the relative lack of social consequences for abusing boys.

There is very little record (none that I know of) that shows that Greek pederasts were into anal, it's something of an expectation of the present due to how things work now. The only case I am aware of that would indicate so would be the part where Julius Caesar was accused of being a bottom, but that is later Roman and not Greek.

Anal sex requires far more skill and preparation than any other form to do correctly. I'm not sure how willing I am to buy into a Greek society that has done that much innovation and experimentation when they weren't that good at either of those in any other field.

 

[Marduk]

So to cut through some of the bs here, I'll quickly cover some basic things:
Fraternal Birth Order: Yes, it exists. No, it doesn't imply that it doesn't happen from birth, just that it isn't genetic. It might be that it's hormones given off by the pregnant mother during birth for all we know. But even if that's not the case, we have a whole lot of evidence that it's basically immutable from a very young age (well before kindergarten). This includes that all the 'ex'-gay organizations eventually shut themselves down. Conversion therapy has a very long and well developed track record of not working even with the convertee trying their best, which makes it immutable for all practical purposes.

So this:

Is basically not true and impossible, at least passed very young ages (like pre-k ish is well past it becoming immutable from what I've read).

What's the BS here then? I said exactly that this phenomenon does happen before birth.

In regards to gay kids being more likely to be abused, a lot of that is that they are more likely to go out and do risky stuff and also more likely to become homeless ( a huge percentage of homeless kids are LGBT because it's pretty rare for kids to be kicked out of homes in general).

That explanation could apply only to pubescent, sexually active gay teenagers. But a lot of this statistically unusual abuse happens well before the age when even heterosexual kids become sexually active in any remotely socially acceptable manner either.

This is not evidence for gay conversion, because being gay and being trans are two completely separate things biologically that are just associated together politically. Note that we don't have a ton of trans animals, but we do have gay animals. This is because actual trans people suffer(ed) from a mental disorder of gender dysphoria. One of the treatments for this is surgery, and it seems to work on some people. But it being a mental disorder of hating your own body, it can be caused, (you can give yourself a disorder if you try hard enough), and it can be confused with other things, like having a fetish for dressing up like a woman (not trans) or a variety of other stuff. It's also socially advantageous. There's also a fair number of people who just don't give a shit about looking like a girl or guy (that's me) and some of those think that makes them trans (that was me years ago) when it doesn't.

Of course examining extreme childhood event induced mental disorders in animals and comparing them to human ones has crippling problems that make attempting such experiments both worthless and unethical...

There is nothing saying that all the gays need be gay for exactly the same biological reason, like you have read in the description of fraternal birth order hypothesis explaining 29% of them at most. But the rest has to come from somewhere too...

The Bogaert et al. (3) report also provides additional support for biological theories of sexual orientation. Note that the FBO effect accounts for only a maximum of 29% of gay males, or possibly a bit more if one assumes that a fraction of the primiparous mothers who

This is the kind of theories i'm implying here:

Sexual Disorientation of Male Sexual Abuse Survivors

Sexual abuse disorients you; it does not orient you.

www.psychologytoday.com

On the other side you have women deciding they are lesbians after bad experiences with men, or even political lesbians who openly state that this has everything to do with their socio-political views rather than biology.

 

[Abhorsen]

What's the BS here then? I said exactly that this phenomenon does happen before birth.

Little, I was talking about the whole post there, should have put that line above the quote. Other paragraphs, yes.

That explanation could apply only to pubescent, sexually active gay teenagers. But a lot of this statistically unusual abuse happens well before the age when even heterosexual kids become sexually active in any remotely socially acceptable manner either.

Obviously the abuse happens before it's socially acceptable, that's one of the chief reasons it's called abuse when it happens.

Kids know they are gay (more accurately, who they are attracted to and that its different, they very well may not know the term) far before it's morally acceptable for people to act on it. Some kids do sexual stuff far before it's morally acceptable for people to act on it. So gay kids are vulnerable to an additional attack vector (sympathy for being different) and are more likely to be vulnerable to someone preying on that, with same sex offenders of children being disproportionately large percentage because of ease of access.

Also, note the age ranges used in studies about this, for example this study:

Disparities in Child Abuse Victimization in Lesbian, Bisexual, and Heterosexual Women in the Nurses’ Health Study II

A growing body of research documents multiple health disparities by sexual orientation among women, yet little is known about the possible causes of these disparities. One underlying factor may be heightened risk for abuse victimization in childhood in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Which splits kids into two groups, those 11 and under which it calls kids, and those 12-17, adolscents. From this, people in both groups could be acting differently based on knowing that they are different. I'd need a fair bit more evidence to show causation.

Of course examining extreme childhood event induced mental disorders in animals and comparing them to human ones has crippling problems that make attempting such experiments both worthless and unethical...

Using prevalence of something in animals as a benchmark to see if behavior is evolutionarily normal is quite fine though. Which is why I used it to separate gay behavior from trans behavior. One is evolutionarily normal, the other isn't. That's evidence to me the second must be a disorder of some sort.

There is nothing saying that all the gays need be gay for exactly the same biological reason, like you have read in the description of fraternal birth order hypothesis explaining 29% of them at most. But the rest has to come from somewhere too...

Genes is one of them, other environmental impacts would be another. A ton of effects on the mother's hormone levels, I could go on. There's way to many other possibilities to go "and thus some of the rest must be because abuse."

This is the kind of theories i'm implying here:

Sexual Disorientation of Male Sexual Abuse Survivors

Sexual abuse disorients you; it does not orient you.

www.psychologytoday.com

I get for these people, they don't want to consider themselves as gay, and that may be what is healthy for them. But having a bunch of gay fantasies and then going out to have gay sex is gay. They might just be gay, but hate it, because their time with it was rape and awful, which is pretty normal behavior. But this hits again the correlation causation part. We do not know if they were gay before the abuse, and it's hardly worth asking.

On the other side you have women deciding they are lesbians after bad experiences with men, or even political lesbians who openly state that this has everything to do with their socio-political views rather than biology.

Political 'lesbians' aren't. Simple as. Being gay implies an attraction that they lack by their own definition.

The BS I was talking about is the correlation/causation stuff you've put here. There's a correlation between abuse and being gay. But I could see a lot of evidence that gay -> abuse rather than the other way around given the repeated inability of abuse or therapy to cause straightness despite a lot of effort put forward to do so. Basically, the large amount of evidence for the lack of ability for conversion therapy to work is heavy evidence that it doesn't work in the opposite way either. So absent evidence of causation, I'm not going to care about just a correlation.

 

[Marduk]

Little, I was talking about the whole post there, should have put that line above the quote. Other paragraphs, yes.


Obviously the abuse happens before it's socially acceptable, that's one of the chief reasons it's called abuse when it happens.

But why would homosexual children would be more likely to be abused because they "go out and do risky stuff" like you called it before being in the same age as heterosexual teenagers who also more or less do it, but only when they get old enough to be interested in this kind of stuff?

Kids know they are gay (more accurately, who they are attracted to and that its different, they very well may not know the term) far before it's morally acceptable for people to act on it.

If that was the core of the issue, you would expect the past abuse rates to be identical below the ages where ordinary boys are normally way more interested in giant robots and videogames than girls.

Some kids do sexual stuff far before it's morally acceptable for people to act on it. So gay kids are vulnerable to an additional attack vector (sympathy for being different) and are more likely to be vulnerable to someone preying on that, with same sex offenders of children being disproportionately large percentage because of ease of access.

Also, note the age ranges used in studies about this, for example this study:

Disparities in Child Abuse Victimization in Lesbian, Bisexual, and Heterosexual Women in the Nurses’ Health Study II

A growing body of research documents multiple health disparities by sexual orientation among women, yet little is known about the possible causes of these disparities. One underlying factor may be heightened risk for abuse victimization in childhood in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Which splits kids into two groups, those 11 and under which it calls kids, and those 12-17, adolscents. From this, people in both groups could be acting differently based on knowing that they are different. I'd need a fair bit more evidence to show causation.

How do those 11 and under "know they are different"? How can they know? Kids at that age normally have no sexual interests outside of edge cases of biology or outright abuse causing them to emulate such in the first place. So if the abuse was only a secondary effect, one would expect very little difference there, unless we go with a theory that homosexuals are very different from heterosexuals biologically in ways completely unrelated to sexual preferences too.
Yet the gap between heterosexual vs homosexual does not change much between adolescent and teenage categories.

Using prevalence of something in animals as a benchmark to see if behavior is evolutionarily normal is quite fine though. Which is why I used it to separate gay behavior from trans behavior. One is evolutionarily normal, the other isn't. That's evidence to me the second must be a disorder of some sort.

What i was saying is that if it was normal, we couldn't see it either no matter how hard we would try for very obvious reasons - good luck interviewing animals.

Genes is one of them, other environmental impacts would be another. A ton of effects on the mother's hormone levels, I could go on. There's way to many other possibilities to go "and thus some of the rest must be because abuse."

I don't disagree here. However, that doesn't mean abuse can't possibly be one of those many factors, or even a big one.

I get for these people, they don't want to consider themselves as gay, and that may be what is healthy for them. But having a bunch of gay fantasies and then going out to have gay sex is gay. They might just be gay, but hate it, because their time with it was rape and awful, which is pretty normal behavior. But this hits again the correlation causation part. We do not know if they were gay before the abuse, and it's hardly worth asking.

The prevalence of such cases is why this question is absolutely worth asking - as it seems that those sexually abused even at ages where any sexual interests would biologically unreasonable later "mysteriously" turn out to have significantly higher chances of developing some kind of unorthodox sexuality than the boring normal kids.

Political 'lesbians' aren't. Simple as. Being gay implies an attraction that they lack by their own definition.

Some of them would claim otherwise.

The BS I was talking about is the correlation/causation stuff you've put here. There's a correlation between abuse and being gay. But I could see a lot of evidence that gay -> abuse rather than the other way around given the repeated inability of abuse or therapy to cause straightness despite a lot of effort put forward to do so. Basically, the large amount of evidence for the lack of ability for conversion therapy to work is heavy evidence that it doesn't work in the opposite way either. So absent evidence of causation, I'm not going to care about just a correlation.

That one is simple. It is far easier to cause lifelong mental traumas to a child than to fix their fallout in a teenager or adult. Just like it is far easier to break someone's bones with a sledgehammer than to put those bones back together, and do it correctly at that, especially when all you have is a sledgehammer.

As another argument for causation the same pattern was observed separately in case of Afghanistan:

Bacha bazi: The stolen childhood of boys turned into dancers, sex slaves in Afghanistan

For some boys, the only escape is to forge a secret deal with the Taliban, which has successfully recruited boy sex slaves hungry for revenge to kill their abusers within police ranks.

www.hindustantimes.com

Now a youth activist in Kabul, he said he did not want to end up the way that many other victims do -- becoming predators themselves.

The secret shame of Afghanistan's bacha bazi 'dancing boys'

Bacha bazi - which translates as 'boy play' - was almost wiped out under the Taliban, but crept back into society after the war, endorsed by Afghanistan's rich and powerful.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The boys are trapped in their world - and are drawn into becoming the predators themselves by the time they are considered too old to be a bacha bereesh anymore.

Speaking to Reuters in 2007, Ahmad, then 17, revealed: 'I love my lord. I love to dance and act like a woman and play with my owner.

'Once I grow up, I will be an owner and I will have my own boys.'

'It is a a psychological trauma,' said Dr Sobhrang. 'They think they can continue like a bacha baz.

'Now he is 20 years old, he can also take other boys for this process. And so it goes from one generation to another generation.'

The very existence of bacha bazi also implies some kind of unusual proclivity towards pedophilia among at least certain cultures of Afghanistan that has to be biological, cultural, or combination of both, as the scale of this is definitely larger than that of pedophilia in most countries.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The very existence of bacha bazi also implies some kind of unusual proclivity towards pedophilia among at least certain cultures of Afghanistan that has to be biological, cultural, or combination of both, as the scale of this is definitely larger than that of pedophilia in most countries.

That argument presumes that all nations report incidence at a consistent rate, which I would say is not likely to be accurate.

 

[Marduk]

That argument presumes that all nations report incidence at a consistent rate, which I would say is not likely to be accurate.

The counterargument presumes that most of the world, including the first world countries with transparency laws and low corruption, are uniquely bad at statistically quantifying the percentage of pedophiles, and only Afghanistan reveals the full scale of the problem.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The counterargument presumes that most of the world, including the first world countries with transparency laws and low corruption, are uniquely bad at statistically quantifying the percentage of pedophiles, and only Afghanistan reveals the full scale of the problem.

I'm pretty sure that "first world countries" in fact have exceptionally high corruption and that so-called transparency laws are just a smokescreen for it.

In any case, the counterargument presumes no such thing; the counter-argument is simply that you cannot make a general argument from the assumption that unknown data points are not only extant but consistent.

 

[Abhorsen]

But why would homosexual children would be more likely to be abused because they "go out and do risky stuff" like you called it before being in the same age as heterosexual teenagers who also more or less do it, but only when they get old enough to be interested in this kind of stuff?

Again, because the age threshold for being more vulnerable is much lower than you think. People know they are gay when they are very young, a lot under 11. And they know they are different, and this has been exploited by predators.

If that was the core of the issue, you would expect the past abuse rates to be identical below the ages where ordinary boys are normally way more interested in giant robots and videogames than girls.

Again, no, you wouldn't. Just feeling different can be exploited. Because someone who feels different might respond differently to the first move of the predator. And I could go on.

On top of that, the age at which kids do sexual stuff can be absurdly young because of the lack of any understanding. The most extreme example I know of is that they have some (albeit disputed) evidence of a fetus masturbating in the womb. But there are other examples, all of which are gross but happen.

How do those 11 and under "know they are different"? How can they know? Kids at that age normally have no sexual interests outside of edge cases of biology or outright abuse causing them to emulate such in the first place. So if the abuse was only a secondary effect, one would expect very little difference there, unless we go with a theory that homosexuals are very different from heterosexuals biologically in ways completely unrelated to sexual preferences too.
Yet the gap between heterosexual vs homosexual does not change much between adolescent and teenage categories.

Look up any stories about people who knew they were gay and what age they were when they did. I knew something was up with me in first grade, I had no idea what, but I knew something was different. Simply watching disney princess movies and wanting to be the 'wrong' person cause you get with the same gender character is common.

Look at this study, for example, which shows different choices of play:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

(Also, note the guy at the bottom whining because he wants non-comforming to gender roles to mean they should be trans. This notion is causing the erasure of gays and lesbians in favor of trans kids.)

This might be young enough I could see the influence in the other direction (i.e. playing with gender non-conforming toys as a young kid might cause gayness instead of gays play with gender non-) perhaps, though I haven't read the paper, they may have a reason they believe or don't believe that.

What i was saying is that if it was normal, we couldn't see it either no matter how hard we would try for very obvious reasons - good luck interviewing animals.

Interviewing? Just look for animals visibly enacting opposite sex exclusive behavior consistently throughout its life. I don't know of any evidence for this, which I know people would be crowing about if it existed, but maybe I missed it?

I don't disagree here. However, that doesn't mean abuse can't possibly be one of those many factors, or even a big one.

No, but it isn't evidence for it, which is my point. You have not evidence for your positive position outside of correlation, and I've given evidence against it

The prevalence of such cases is why this question is absolutely worth asking - as it seems that those sexually abused even at ages where any sexual interests would biologically unreasonable later "mysteriously" turn out to have significantly higher chances of developing some kind of unorthodox sexuality than the boring normal kids.

First, you haven't shown prevalence. People have a preference far before they actually awaken to sexuality. People

Some of them would claim otherwise.

And they'd be morons. News at 11.

That one is simple. It is far easier to cause lifelong mental traumas to a child than to fix their fallout in a teenager or adult. Just like it is far easier to break someone's bones with a sledgehammer than to put those bones back together, and do it correctly at that, especially when all you have is a sledgehammer.

You might have a point if there was any success, even rarely, but there was no success. Being gay isn't a trauma, and so really isn't fixable.

As another argument for causation the same pattern was observed separately in case of Afghanistan:

Bacha bazi: The stolen childhood of boys turned into dancers, sex slaves in Afghanistan

For some boys, the only escape is to forge a secret deal with the Taliban, which has successfully recruited boy sex slaves hungry for revenge to kill their abusers within police ranks.

www.hindustantimes.com

The secret shame of Afghanistan's bacha bazi 'dancing boys'

Bacha bazi - which translates as 'boy play' - was almost wiped out under the Taliban, but crept back into society after the war, endorsed by Afghanistan's rich and powerful.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The very existence of bacha bazi also implies some kind of unusual proclivity towards pedophilia among at least certain cultures of Afghanistan that has to be biological, cultural, or combination of both, as the scale of this is definitely larger than that of pedophilia in most countries.

Oh, fetishes and abuse in general definitely work this way, though not always (ant that's what pedophilia is, not an orientation). Associate something enough with pleasure (even forced, unwilling pleasure), and it'll get ingrained into your mind.

But that's separate from sexuality. These guys aren't having long term relationships with gay adults. They are preying on boys while being straight in their adult lives.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Look at this study, for example, which shows different choices of play:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

(Also, note the guy at the bottom whining because he wants non-comforming to gender roles to mean they should be trans. This notion is causing the erasure of gays and lesbians in favor of trans kids.)

I'm going to point out here that the infamous study about "transgender desistance" in children made exactly that error, only they applied it the other way around to claim that trans kids *should* be erased. When a different research team took a more unbiased look at the data set, they found that children who actually assert a clear gender identity do in fact consistently maintain that gender identity into adulthood; it was only children who were assumed by their parents to possibly be transgender based on 'non conforming' behavior who had a high incidence of 'desistance'.

The sensible bottom line is to not jump to conclusions based on childhood behavior, and to trust what the child actually communicates over the parents' interpretation.

 

[Cherico]

I'm going to point out here that the infamous study about "transgender desistance" in children made exactly that error, only they applied it the other way around to claim that trans kids *should* be erased. When a different research team took a more unbiased look at the data set, they found that children who actually assert a clear gender identity do in fact consistently maintain that gender identity into adulthood; it was only children who were assumed by their parents to possibly be transgender based on 'non conforming' behavior who had a high incidence of 'desistance'.

The sensible bottom line is to not jump to conclusions based on childhood behavior, and to trust what the child actually communicates over the parents' interpretation.

Gender reasignment is a bid serious fucking decision one that will impact you for the rest of your life. This is not something that should ever be done lightly and it certainly shouldn't be done to children, and no Parents shouldn't volunteer their children for this surgery either.

Personal adult decisions should be made by some one who is an adult and only after very careful consideration. Not by minors or on minors.

 

[Culsu]

Being a part of the Alphabet Soup Community is the latest fad. I guarantee you a lot of these teens are completely straight, but "being" gay, bi, or a transtrender gives them social clout.

Probably so. The difference being that going the transgender route means there's a very high chance of lasting, irreversible physical and psychological damage. That's bit more than just a fad, like, say, the Emo phase of the early 2000s. It's one of the reasons I'm relieved I don't have any kids, yet.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Gender reasignment is a bid serious fucking decision one that will impact you for the rest of your life. This is not something that should ever be done lightly and it certainly shouldn't be done to children, and no Parents shouldn't volunteer their children for this surgery either.

It isn't and they aren't. The study in question was based on looking at cases of children who were referred to one specific clinic by their parents for 'gender nonconforming behavior', then following up some years later when they reached adulthood. Gender reassignment surgery in minors is not a thing under the standards of care.

Note that another huge flaw of the study -- one that shows how utterly biased the team was -- was that the study authors counted anyone whom they couldn't follow up on because they weren't still using the same medical clinic, could not be contacted, or declined to participate in the follow up as "no longer transgender" rather than "no follow up".

 

[Abhorsen]

I'm going to point out here that the infamous study about "transgender desistance" in children made exactly that error, only they applied it the other way around to claim that trans kids *should* be erased. When a different research team took a more unbiased look at the data set, they found that children who actually assert a clear gender identity do in fact consistently maintain that gender identity into adulthood; it was only children who were assumed by their parents to possibly be transgender based on 'non conforming' behavior who had a high incidence of 'desistance'.

The sensible bottom line is to not jump to conclusions based on childhood behavior, and to trust what the child actually communicates over the parents' interpretation.

Agreed. Trans kids exist (it doesn't just spring outta nowhere), while at the same time most 'trans' kids aren't, they are just useful tools for their parents to get attention.

Obviously, don't give them drugs or do surgeries (and those surgeries do happen, such as masectomies for very underage girls), until they are an adult and can choose for themselves.

I will note that some people do desist. In some sense I did, as I realized what I was wasn't trans, but was just bi. I'm honestly unsure how much of desisting has to do with a person just growing up, or if it's all just 'trans' people (like I was) realizing they aren't and never were. I don't know of any real good studies either way on the affects of what would be conversion therapy for trans people. We know from experience it doesn't work for gays, but is there a lot of evidence of trans people going through unchanged?

 

[Marduk]

I'm pretty sure that "first world countries" in fact have exceptionally high corruption and that so-called transparency laws are just a smokescreen for it.

In any case, the counterargument presumes no such thing; the counter-argument is simply that you cannot make a general argument from the assumption that unknown data points are not only extant but consistent.

That is quite a wild statement and you should know better - after all, it implies that places like China, Russia, Egypt or Pakistan are less corrupt and produce more reliable statistics than the western countries, at least in something as specific as the amount of pedophiles they know of.
However, no matter what has lead to this, by all means Afghanistan, and not even the whole thing, but certain cultures in it, works differently from most of the world in that regard, and that is an obvious fact, and there has to be some kind of underlying mechanism, biological and/or cultural, that makes it so.

Again, because the age threshold for being more vulnerable is much lower than you think. People know they are gay when they are very young, a lot under 11. And they know they are different, and this has been exploited by predators.

Of course any age is vulnerable, but not in the way you are implying. Just like 8 year old drag queens, 7 year olds on twitter being deeply interested in healthcare law or climate policy, and vegan cats, chances are there's a manipulative adult behind that odd phenomenon.

What you are indirectly implying here is that homosexual sexual maturity works by quite different rules than the ordinary heterosexual kind, with considerably lowered age ranges.

Again, no, you wouldn't. Just feeling different can be exploited. Because someone who feels different might respond differently to the first move of the predator. And I could go on.

On top of that, the age at which kids do sexual stuff can be absurdly young because of the lack of any understanding. The most extreme example I know of is that they have some (albeit disputed) evidence of a fetus masturbating in the womb. But there are other examples, all of which are gross but happen.

Oddities of biology and spurious evidence usually found by people who have a very dark axe to grind in the topic aren't very convincing when it comes to statistical data that's supposed to represent the whole population.
Yes, suggestion by very improperly functioning caretakers can get kids to emulate sexual behaviors, even if not out of their own natural tendency, but as an act of mimicry, well before puberty, but that's a thing that's not supposed to be enabled, tolerated or accepted.

Look up any stories about people who knew they were gay and what age they were when they did. I knew something was up with me in first grade, I had no idea what, but I knew something was different. Simply watching disney princess movies and wanting to be the 'wrong' person cause you get with the same gender character is common.

That pictures another not really politically correct theory - homosexuality has wider effects on a person that merely "same as hetero in all ways except same sex attraction".

Look at this study, for example, which shows different choices of play:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

(Also, note the guy at the bottom whining because he wants non-comforming to gender roles to mean they should be trans. This notion is causing the erasure of gays and lesbians in favor of trans kids.)

Mere 10 point statistical difference with parental self reporting is not nearly as conclusive as you imply.
Also, the trans form-fitting goes beyond even "gay and lesbian erasure", there are plenty of heterosexual women with a tomboyish backstory who are shocked at imagining how would they be treated if they were kids under the trans-advocate institutions:

The Trans War on Tomboys

Compact Magazine, a radical American journal

compactmag.com

This might be young enough I could see the influence in the other direction (i.e. playing with gender non-conforming toys as a young kid might cause gayness instead of gays play with gender non-) perhaps, though I haven't read the paper, they may have a reason they believe or don't believe that.

The bigger question is, how well do the numbers add up? Is the percentage of non-conforming kids multiplied by percentage of non conforming kids turning out to be some predicted kind of sexual minority later on anywhere close to explaining the later population of such minorities?

Interviewing? Just look for animals visibly enacting opposite sex exclusive behavior consistently throughout its life. I don't know of any evidence for this, which I know people would be crowing about if it existed, but maybe I missed it?

You have missed a lot of drama then, of course they claim that those exist.

Transgender Monkeys Prove That Trans People Are Part Of The Animal Kingdom – Sdlgbtn

www.sdlgbtn.com

$500,000 'to turn monkeys transgender': Watchdog trashes government spending

Watchdog group American Transparency is not pleased with how the government is monkeying around with taxpayer dollars. In a review of federal discretionary spending over the past two years, the group discovered a number of federally funded projects such as studies on zombified cats, toilet...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

No, but it isn't evidence for it, which is my point. You have not evidence for your positive position outside of correlation, and I've given evidence against it

Your evidence against doesn't exclude such a mechanisms, it's just evidence that it's not the only mechanism.

First, you haven't shown prevalence. People have a preference far before they actually awaken to sexuality. People

And as the study shows, the reliability of that preference for predicting future sexuality is not very good.

You might have a point if there was any success, even rarely, but there was no success. Being gay isn't a trauma, and so really isn't fixable.

That is a blanket assumption. Just because it's not a trauma for some, doesn't mean it's the same for all.
Why is there little success and if any, it's widely questioned (and it's not that there is exactly zero, there is plenty of controversy about that, and massive differences of opinion internationally)?

‘I know personally it works’: Man who sued Maryland to overturn gay conversion ban at center of new film

Whether as the plaintiff in a recently filed lawsuit or a central figure in a new documentary, therapist Christopher Doyle portrays himself as both healer and healed. “The same-sex desires, j…

www.baltimoresun.com

Report: Therapy Is Often Successful at Treating Gender Dysphoria - The American Spectator | USA News and PoliticsThe American Spectator | USA News and Politics

A report cuts against the belief that it is impossible for people who believe they are the opposite sex to overcome their gender dysphoria.

spectator.org

Even adults can get nasty lifelong psychological disorders, obviously the same goes for children with such experiences.

Is There A Cure For Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder? | Steps to Recovery

By using a combination of treatments and type of therapy, people can alleviate symptoms of PTSD over time. Read more about PTSD here.

www.stepstorecovery.com

Can Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Be Cured?

Unfortunately, even with the many treatment methods available, there is no cut-and-dry cure for PTSD. Most people with PTSD do have to live with the disorder forever; however, by developing the right coping strategies and prioritizing their mental health, they can begin to feel more confident in themselves and their actions. By using a combination of treatments and type of therapy, people can alleviate symptoms of PTSD over time.

If even bog standard PTSD can be only alleviated, and not fully cured, why would you expect that childhood trauma induced sexual disorders need to be fully curable for them to be considered disorders?
And the other side of the coin is that conversion therapy was often done by people with an axe to grind from the other side of the barricade, often out of religious motivations, with little in the way of qualifications in psychological therapy, so statistically they would ruin success rates even if it was hard but doable.

Oh, fetishes and abuse in general definitely work this way, though not always (ant that's what pedophilia is, not an orientation). Associate something enough with pleasure (even forced, unwilling pleasure), and it'll get ingrained into your mind.

But that's separate from sexuality. These guys aren't having long term relationships with gay adults. They are preying on boys while being straight in their adult lives.

There are many things gay adults are known for, but stable long term relationships between them definitely aren't one of them.

In the current western institutions obsessed about checking their diversity quotas, it's quite possible people like that would be pressured into recognizing themselves as some kind of LGBT+ even if not L\G, which then leads to inevitable conclusion that it's quite possible for there to exist a number of "true" homosexuals caused to be such by in-utero hormonal anomalies, and some number of "confused" homosexuals caused by some combination of manipulation and inappropriate upbringing, the latter number being far more malleable and changing with more and less intentional environmental factors, and being the mythical "variable" part in all the "rising LGBTQ youth" statistics, with the former number being the "floor".

 

[DarthOne]

 

[Abhorsen]

I've slightly messed around with the order to group related stuff up, and hopefully keep the spaghetti posting to a minimum.

Of course any age is vulnerable, but not in the way you are implying. Just like 8 year old drag queens, 7 year olds on twitter being deeply interested in healthcare law or climate policy, and vegan cats, chances are there's a manipulative adult behind that odd phenomenon.

What you are indirectly implying here is that homosexual sexual maturity works by quite different rules than the ordinary heterosexual kind, with considerably lowered age ranges.

Oddities of biology and spurious evidence usually found by people who have a very dark axe to grind in the topic aren't very convincing when it comes to statistical data that's supposed to represent the whole population.
Yes, suggestion by very improperly functioning caretakers can get kids to emulate sexual behaviors, even if not out of their own natural tendency, but as an act of mimicry, well before puberty, but that's a thing that's not supposed to be enabled, tolerated or accepted.

Again, no, I'm not claiming an earliness in sexual maturity. I'm noting that girls want to marry the prince when they watch Disney movies, despite having no knowledge of sexuality. And gay girls want to be the prince. Gay kids sometimes act differently from a young age. Nothing dark happened to me, and I was acting different. Not very different, but different.

Mere 10 point statistical difference with parental self reporting is not nearly as conclusive as you imply.
Also, the trans form-fitting goes beyond even "gay and lesbian erasure", there are plenty of heterosexual women with a tomboyish backstory who are shocked at imagining how would they be treated if they were kids under the trans-advocate institutions:


And as the study shows, the reliability of that preference for predicting future sexuality is not very good.

The only thing it needs to be is statistically significant, which it is. Also, the differences shown in abuse at a young age was about that size, IIRC.

It doesn't have to be a lot of impact. It needs to show a difference in behavior on average at a young age, which it does. Maybe it's gender non-conforming behavior that opens one up to sexual abuse. Regardless, it shows that gay kids act in ways that are on average, different than straight kids, at a young age. This difference in action could explain the difference in exploitation. You don't have any evidence that it doesn't.

Since you are making a positive claim, you need to show that this doesn't trigger predatory behavior.

Your evidence against doesn't exclude such a mechanisms, it's just evidence that it's not the only mechanism.

...

That is a blanket assumption. Just because it's not a trauma for some, doesn't mean it's the same for all.
Why is there little success and if any, it's widely questioned (and it's not that there is exactly zero, there is plenty of controversy about that, and massive differences of opinion internationally)?

‘I know personally it works’: Man who sued Maryland to overturn gay conversion ban at center of new film

Whether as the plaintiff in a recently filed lawsuit or a central figure in a new documentary, therapist Christopher Doyle portrays himself as both healer and healed. “The same-sex desires, j…

www.baltimoresun.com

Report: Therapy Is Often Successful at Treating Gender Dysphoria - The American Spectator | USA News and PoliticsThe American Spectator | USA News and Politics

A report cuts against the belief that it is impossible for people who believe they are the opposite sex to overcome their gender dysphoria.

spectator.org

Even adults can get nasty lifelong psychological disorders, obviously the same goes for children with such experiences.

No, the evidence I'm talking about here is the long term repeated failure of conversion therapy.

Now you try to cite evidence, but again, your cites are lacking. Your second piece of evidence is about gender dysphoria, which I've specifically not stated whether gender conversion therapy works (my guess is that it could). So that's completely irrelevant to my claim that sex orientation conversion therapy never works. Your other citation is a guy saying "But I know it works." Yeah, so did Exodus International. Then they admitted it didn't and closed down.

If even bog standard PTSD can be only alleviated, and not fully cured, why would you expect that childhood trauma induced sexual disorders need to be fully curable for them to be considered disorders?
And the other side of the coin is that conversion therapy was often done by people with an axe to grind from the other side of the barricade, often out of religious motivations, with little in the way of qualifications in psychological therapy, so statistically they would ruin success rates even if it was hard but doable.

... Your first paragraph makes a ton of assumptions. It already assumes gay can be caused by sexual trauma (this lacks evidence). It also arbitrarily assumes that PTSD is the similar comparison. Why PTSD, and not other, effectively beatable conditions. I have a friend who beat Anorexia. Why not that one? This isn't the evidence you are looking for.

Sure, you can call being gay a disorder if you want, but the definition of a disorder is really that it causes one problems in day to day life. Gayness doesn't, not like PTSD with flashbacks, Anorexia with the refusal to eat, etc. What matters isn't if you consider it a disorder, but if it can be trauma induced. Which you haven't shown at all. You've just claimed a correlation, and then declared that causative.



Below is quick one off stuff that I'm not going to continue responding to past this, because otherwise the replies will just keep getting longer and longer, sorry:

That pictures another not really politically correct theory - homosexuality has wider effects on a person that merely "same as hetero in all ways except same sex attraction".

And? That's irrelevant to the point at hand.

You have missed a lot of drama then, of course they claim that those exist.

Transgender Monkeys Prove That Trans People Are Part Of The Animal Kingdom – Sdlgbtn

www.sdlgbtn.com

$500,000 'to turn monkeys transgender': Watchdog trashes government spending

Watchdog group American Transparency is not pleased with how the government is monkeying around with taxpayer dollars. In a review of federal discretionary spending over the past two years, the group discovered a number of federally funded projects such as studies on zombified cats, toilet...

www.washingtonexaminer.com

That ain't trans monkeys. That's just a monkey injected with hormones from the opposite sex. Again, I laid out what a trans animal would be. This ain't it.

There are many things gay adults are known for, but stable long term relationships between them definitely aren't one of them.

Yeah, that's the thing, those exist now. They have for about 20 years. Gay culture was fucked up, but it was actively unfucking itself very rapidly since the 70s til about 5 years ago.

In the current western institutions obsessed about checking their diversity quotas, it's quite possible people like that would be pressured into recognizing themselves as some kind of LGBT+ even if not L\G, which then leads to inevitable conclusion that it's quite possible for there to exist a number of "true" homosexuals caused to be such by in-utero hormonal anomalies, and some number of "confused" homosexuals caused by some combination of manipulation and inappropriate upbringing, the latter number being far more malleable and changing with more and less intentional environmental factors, and being the mythical "variable" part in all the "rising LGBTQ youth" statistics, with the former number being the "floor".

Yeah, and what does this have to do with the alleged existence of trauma caused gayness? Oh, wait, nothing. People can lie about stuff. Shocker.

 

[ATP]

Rather obvious.In USA media attacked catholic Church for pedophilia - till they discovered,that homo lobby among priests did it.After that,they stop talking.

 

[Marduk]

I've slightly messed around with the order to group related stuff up, and hopefully keep the spaghetti posting to a minimum.


Again, no, I'm not claiming an earliness in sexual maturity. I'm noting that girls want to marry the prince when they watch Disney movies, despite having no knowledge of sexuality. And gay girls want to be the prince. Gay kids sometimes act differently from a young age. Nothing dark happened to me, and I was acting different. Not very different, but different.

Yes, children are easily encouraged to mimic what they see as social norms. In a different society they would be wanting to marry a viking instead, and in a yet different one, become a nun. The "sometimes" you put there is a very strategic qualifier though.

The only thing it needs to be is statistically significant, which it is. Also, the differences shown in abuse at a young age was about that size, IIRC.

But if it is only "statistically significant" rather than "proportional to the expected amount of homosexuals" that does fit with my theory of variable causes and forms of psychological development that later in life may coalesce into general homosexuality, though with many subgroups that may have their subtle differences.

It doesn't have to be a lot of impact. It needs to show a difference in behavior on average at a young age, which it does. Maybe it's gender non-conforming behavior that opens one up to sexual abuse. Regardless, it shows that gay kids act in ways that are on average, different than straight kids, at a young age. This difference in action could explain the difference in exploitation. You don't have any evidence that it doesn't.

Possibly. There is however a warning to be made out of taking conclusions from gender non conforming behaviors. After all, we know this can be something leading both to growing out of it, unusual but heterosexual life like mentioned tomboys, homosexuality or lately, transgenderism. What absolutely cannot be said is that this reliably and inevitably leads to one of these 4 options no matter what. So the best we can say is that unusual children tend to often lead to unusual adults, but the specifics of which leads to what resolution, why, and if those ratios can be affected by environmental factors remain murky at best.

Since you are making a positive claim, you need to show that this doesn't trigger predatory behavior.

Absolutely not. There is no reason why lack of conclusive evidence either way should lead to a default to your opinion that this fully explains such differences, even though there is no conclusive evidence that it does. Perhaps the evidence is not conclusive either way, but rationally that should lead to it being considered, well, inconclusive, and in need of more research.
Even if it does make such children the preferred target for pedophiles, it would need to do so at sufficient numbers to explain this disproportion to confirm your theory.
Meanwhile there is separate research on what exactly makes children targets of pedophiles, and it's not exactly that:

Who Do Child Molesters Target? - TAALK

TAALK - Talk About Abuse to Liberate Kids

www.taalk.org

What the experts know about child sexual abuse and exploitation

What is grooming? How does abuse happen online? We speak to the experts at Barnardo's answering some common questions about sexual abuse and exploitation.

www.barnardos.org.uk

The pattern seems pretty obvious - unassertive, neglected by parents, disabled, generally as incapable of resisting physically and mentally as possible. While you could argue this does fit with the stereotypes of gays, by that logic girls with masculine tendencies should in fact be less likely to be targeted than the average, did anyone observe that?

No, the evidence I'm talking about here is the long term repeated failure of conversion therapy.

Now you try to cite evidence, but again, your cites are lacking. Your second piece of evidence is about gender dysphoria, which I've specifically not stated whether gender conversion therapy works (my guess is that it could). So that's completely irrelevant to my claim that sex orientation conversion therapy never works. Your other citation is a guy saying "But I know it works." Yeah, so did Exodus International. Then they admitted it didn't and closed down.

Perhaps it doesn't work. But my argument is that this in no way invalidates your argument that it not working somehow means the abuse theory can't be true even in some cases, even though many other trauma induced psychological disorders also have no cure, only alleviation of symptoms.

... Your first paragraph makes a ton of assumptions. It already assumes gay can be caused by sexual trauma (this lacks evidence).

Does Abusing Children Have Consequences for Sexuality?

Are they abused because they’re gay or because of their “inappropriate” gender?

www.psychologytoday.com

Here you have a developmental psychologists linking and discussing 4 studies on answering precisely that question. And he is very much trying to take into account correlation-causation related issues.
Overall he doesn't give a conclusive yes or no to this theory, and brings up some studies that confirm your view (4), some to mine (3), and some that this issue may be more complicated than either, that the relationship between abuse and homosexual tendencies may be bidirectional, and that it may be dependent even on the specific type of abuse.
Overall, seems rather inconclusive, i don't see why this should be handwaved away in favor of taking your view as conclusive for no reason at all.

It also arbitrarily assumes that PTSD is the similar comparison. Why PTSD, and not other, effectively beatable conditions. I have a friend who beat Anorexia. Why not that one? This isn't the evidence you are looking for.

Why the assumption that if some cases of homosexuality can be caused by traumatic experiences, these cases have to be curable, and if they aren't, that means this whole theory has to be invalidated?

Sure, you can call being gay a disorder if you want, but the definition of a disorder is really that it causes one problems in day to day life. Gayness doesn't, not like PTSD with flashbacks, Anorexia with the refusal to eat, etc. What matters isn't if you consider it a disorder, but if it can be trauma induced. Which you haven't shown at all. You've just claimed a correlation, and then declared that causative.

That's an argument going into technicalities and politics. Some skin disorders have no meaningful impact on one's life besides aesthetics which can be relative, yet they are still considered disorders.

And i've shown multiple articles by psychologists claiming that trauma may have some causative effect, even if they aren't willing to call it a 100% sure thing.

Below is quick one off stuff that I'm not going to continue responding to past this, because otherwise the replies will just keep getting longer and longer, sorry:



And? That's irrelevant to the point at hand.

It is relevant to the point about early childhood behavior, and if we are digging into that direction, that in turn raises question about how far do these difference reach, and in turn also what other impacts may they have psychologically, which in turn could interfere with all the assumptions about psychological health.

That ain't trans monkeys. That's just a monkey injected with hormones from the opposite sex. Again, I laid out what a trans animal would be. This ain't it.

That's the second one, and you obviously didn't read the first one:

One study found that of the chimpanzees that were observed in a captive setting, 4% of males and 2% of females displayed transgender behaviors. This suggests that transgenderism is more common in chimpanzees than in humans, where the prevalence is estimated to be around 0.6%. Transgender chimpanzees generally display behaviors that are more typical of the opposite sex, such as using the opposite sex’s bathroom, playing with the opposite sex’s toys, or displaying aggressive behaviors typically seen in males.

Yeah, that's the thing, those exist now. They have for about 20 years. Gay culture was fucked up, but it was actively unfucking itself very rapidly since the 70s til about 5 years ago.

Of course on the scale of millions of people unusual cases exist - people who lift cars, people who can bend themselves at unusual angles, people who can outrun most animals, but that doesn't invalidate the average.