Breaking News Trans Activists Breach Oklahoma Capitol

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Frankly I'm at the point where I don't care what trannies do to mutilate and sterilize themselves anymore, not after the shit they've given people who don't enable their insanity.

Let them sterilize themselves and remove themselves from the gene pool, so long as they are over 18 when they chose to.

For the 'detransistioners', who realized the irrevocable mistake they made, need be blasting warnings everywhere about how no amount of hormones or surgeries can make a man into a woman or a woman into a man.

Trying to get kids to 'trans' themselves should be a crime and enabling the 'gender theory' madness over 'biological sex' should be grounds for revocation of any professional license.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
3. Your argument about the definition of insanity can be applied to literally every single law, and is thus meaningless. A sufficiently malicious actor can redefine 'disturbing the peace' to mean 'not actively and vociferously supporting the party in all things to ensure social harmony.' Does that mean that we should consider it acceptable and legal for someone to move into the middle of a residential neighborhood, then play loud music at deafening volumes 24/7, crippling the other residents ability to work, sleep, or anything else? Obviously not.
What's the limiting principle here that stops this here? Harm to others (namely that the loud noise stops one from sleeping or similar). What's your limiting principle to stop the surgery? Insanity, as defined by whoever. One of those is measurable, as someone complains of harm to themselves. The other is not, as it's only able to be judged by an outside observer, as the person purportedly harmed is not complaining of harm. That's the big lie of big government: government claiming that person A was harmed by person B, despite A and B consenting.

If you believe in that lie, you do not believe in limited government, but unlimited nanny state government.
1. I do not want 'daddy government' involved in education in the first place. Punishing people for injuring others is one of few roles I believe the government should be involved with, which is why I am arguing for it here.
I know you don't. But government caused the problem, why do you think they will fix it, and not instead cause another problem?

And you missed the bus on injuring. I think this is the key problem. It's not about what is done, it's about what was consented to. Should people be able to sell another person a cigarette? We know it'll harm the user. Yes, it's a lot less harm, but it still causes harm. Same with tanning beds and tattoos and going into a UFC ring to fight (and there, they turn them on, not the user, as if that matters). There's nothing morally wrong with that, because it was consented to. The difference you try to split between the person doing X to themselves, and a person doing X to another with consent, is morally meaningless.

And then a person is a cripple and needs to be supported for the rest of their life, forcing an externality on the rest of the community. The fact that they paid to become so doesn't mean they aren't inflicting the consequences of their actions on others.

Your next answer is likely to be that you also don't want the community to support the person who crippled themself, but that's just betraying a lack of understanding about basic human nature. Humans are social animals and the community will feel compelled to support the weak because that's how humans work.
No, I also don't believe in government assistance for this, especially as it's self caused. And I doubt the community will do the same for a self inflicted wound. They know it's different, everyone does.

But if they do, then that's the choice of the individuals that make up the community, that they have consented to. And if the guy goes somewhere else and lies about why he's an amputee, that's fraud, something that is wrong.

To make an analogy, a person is not allowed to put up an advertisement depicting incredibly gory and sexual imagery where other people can see it, just because it's on their own property. The view extends past their property boundaries and saying "people don't have to look at it if they don't want to" is a thin excuse for unloading the externality of disturbing people's mental state for the profit of putting up the advertisement, human nature doesn't work that way.
Yes, they pretty much are in the US. That'd be a content based restriction on speech, and the bar for obscenity is getting ever lower until it just covers CP and maybe revenge porn. A big middle finger statue 6 feet in the air is legal, I'd bet on the sign being legal unless it was egregious to hit obscenity, where it isn't legal anywhere, not just not on a sign. There are people with cartoon porn on their sweatshirts walking around, which, while gross, is legal. You just get community backlash for wearing it.

This is just a Slippery Slope fallacy.
Which the government always goes down. Every time. Like it's a waterslide park. Crime victims rights? Used by bad cops to keep their names outta the press. 2 weeks to flatten the curve? Two years. I could go on.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
What's the limiting principle here that stops this here? Harm to others (namely that the loud noise stops one from sleeping or similar). What's your limiting principle to stop the surgery? Insanity, as defined by whoever. One of those is measurable, as someone complains of harm to themselves. The other is not, as it's only able to be judged by an outside observer, as the person purportedly harmed is not complaining of harm. That's the big lie of big government: government claiming that person A was harmed by person B, despite A and B consenting.

If you believe in that lie, you do not believe in limited government, but unlimited nanny state government.
...Are you actively engaging in bad faith, or are you really that blind?

The standard is not 'insanity, as defined by whoever,' the standard is 'a person crippling another person.' I have said this before.

To quote myself:
We are not talking about someone doing something to their own body.

We are talking about someone doing something destructive to someone else's body.

I believe it is immoral to mutilate yourself because you're pursuing an insane dream. It is your body however, and even if it is immoral, you have ownership over your own body, so you generally get to do what you like with it.

It's quite a different thing for someone else to do that to your body.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
...Are you actively engaging in bad faith, or are you really that blind?

The standard is not 'insanity, as defined by whoever,' the standard is 'a person crippling another person.' I have said this before.

To quote myself:
Sure, fine, let's use crippling as your limiting principle. This still bring us to this:
And you missed the bus on injuring. I think this is the key problem. It's not about what is done, it's about what was consented to. Should people be able to sell another person a cigarette? We know it'll harm the user. Yes, it's a lot less harm, but it still causes harm. Same with tanning beds and tattoos and going into a UFC ring to fight (and there, they turn them on, not the user, as if that matters). There's nothing morally wrong with that, because it was consented to. The difference you try to split between the person doing X to themselves, and a person doing X to another with consent, is morally meaningless.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
If you believe in that lie, you do not believe in limited government, but unlimited nanny state government.
False dichotomy fallacy. Slider bars do not have to be pushed all the way to the end, some people have enough common sense to move them around and look for the sweet spot.

No, I also don't believe in government assistance for this, especially as it's self caused. And I doubt the community will do the same for a self inflicted wound. They know it's different, everyone does.

But if they do, then that's the choice of the individuals that make up the community, that they have consented to. And if the guy goes somewhere else and lies about why he's an amputee, that's fraud, something that is wrong.
Why do you even presume the community knows in the first place? Is there some kind of nanny-state information system that would inform them? Sounds like big government to me.

Saying it's fraud, well, fraud happens and you want the government to be too small to combat fraud. The fact that human nature conflicts with your philosophy is a flaw in your philosophy.

This also punctures your attempt to say what you think people would do in this situation. You do not have a good track record of understanding how humans act and react and your opinion on what you think they would do is invalid due to those many failures.

Yes, they pretty much are in the US. That'd be a content based restriction on speech, and the bar for obscenity is getting ever lower until it just covers CP and maybe revenge porn. A big middle finger statue 6 feet in the air is legal, I'd bet on the sign being legal unless it was egregious to hit obscenity, where it isn't legal anywhere, not just not on a sign. There are people with cartoon porn on their sweatshirts walking around, which, while gross, is legal. You just get community backlash for wearing it.

Which the government always goes down. Every time. Like it's a waterslide park. Crime victims rights? Used by bad cops to keep their names outta the press. 2 weeks to flatten the curve? Two years. I could go on.
It's true that some slopes are slippery. But the example you're making is pretty bats, your claim is that the government recognizing that externalities exist leads directly to censorship and gun control. Do you have any examples of such a slope happening, ever?

Externalities are the great Achilles Heel of libertarians. By (libertarian) definition, an externality that isn't checked is putting a gun to someone's head. Person A offloading an externality on person B is forcing them to subsidize their lifestyle, by suffering the consequences of Person A's decisions without consent. By definition, an externality is something you can offload on another person without them being able to prevent it*. By definition, the only thing that can stop it is... strict government regulation.

*Some classic examples are putting a waterwheel on a stream that runs downriver (which will reduce the flow and prevent the person downriver from also being able to operate a waterwheel, the amount of regulation required for waterways is absolutely staggering because of how many externalities water allows one to offload onto their neighbors) and putting pollution into the atmosphere that will affect everybody in the surrounding area.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Sure, fine, let's use crippling as your limiting principle. This still bring us to this:

The difference is not meaningless, and yet again you are drawing false comparisons.

Removing a leg or sexual organs is inherently crippling.

Getting a tattoo is not. Smoking a cigarette is not, and also is something a person does to themselves. Even professional fighting is high risk activity for serious injury, not a guarantee.

Boxers wear gloves specifically to limit the chance of serious injury. Martial arts contests have rules forbidding things like eye gouges to minimize the chance of crippling.

By contrast, we are talking about a surgery specifically designed to permanently cripple a person.

Your continued refusal to acknowledge the difference is nothing less than wilful blindness. As Bear Ribs said, it isn't one extreme or another. Things exist on a slider, and acting like you can only be purely on one end or another is the same kind of childish thinking that socialists and identity politics types rely on for their nonsense.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
The difference is not meaningless, and yet again you are drawing false comparisons.

Removing a leg or sexual organs is inherently crippling.

Getting a tattoo is not. Smoking a cigarette is not, and also is something a person does to themselves. Even professional fighting is high risk activity for serious injury, not a guarantee.

Boxers wear gloves specifically to limit the chance of serious injury. Martial arts contests have rules forbidding things like eye gouges to minimize the chance of crippling.

By contrast, we are talking about a surgery specifically designed to permanently cripple a person.

Your continued refusal to acknowledge the difference is nothing less than wilful blindness. As Bear Ribs said, it isn't one extreme or another. Things exist on a slider, and acting like you can only be purely on one end or another is the same kind of childish thinking that socialists and identity politics types rely on for their nonsense.
Because to Ab, all that matters is the fig leaf of consent in legal matters and such.

Never mind the 'consent', in this case, is often based on progressive lies about biology and on not looking at the number of post-op tranny suicides and medical issues.

This is part of why AnCaps don't get anywhere, and make more moderate libertarian positions seem toxic by association.

Edit: There is a reason I compare AnCaps to the Ferengi; they have effectively the same moral code, minus the religious bits and forcing females to no wear cloths.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
Removing a leg or sexual organs is inherently crippling.
Sure, whatever. Why is it fine for government to allow a person to do it to themselves, but not allow another to do it? That's my issue here. Square this circle please.
That's you showing yourself off, outside your own property. And note, there are times this is legal too, such as when a man stripped in an airport to protest the TSA.
It's true that some slopes are slippery. But the example you're making is pretty bats, your claim is that the government recognizing that externalities exist leads directly to censorship and gun control. Do you have any examples of such a slope happening, ever?
No, it's governments using those externalities as a smokescreen to go down the slope on purpose. I just gave two examples, and I didn't mention gun control or censorship at all here?

But sure, let's use gun control: The entire history of gun control up until the mid 2000s. A slippery slops of promised safety used to rob freedoms.

Or censorship. Banning harmful words in the UK eventually lead to arresting people praying silently. Not quite censorship, but the government (notably the FBI) uses the excuse of needing to investigate crime such as child porn to campaign and sue anyone offering strong encryption, to try to get them to break it. And I want laws against child porn, I'm just well aware the government will try to use them to expand its reach.

Externalities are the great Achilles Heel of libertarians. By (libertarian) definition, an externality that isn't checked is putting a gun to someone's head. Person A offloading an externality on person B is forcing them to subsidize their lifestyle, by suffering the consequences of Person A's decisions without consent. By definition, an externality is something you can offload on another person without them being able to prevent it*. By definition, the only thing that can stop it is... strict government regulation.
No, they really aren't. Because most externalities are willingly taken up, including this one, so it is no harm. The only externalities that matter to a Libertarian are those that aren't consensually taken up, such as pollution.

Basically, you can leave someone to starve on the street. You choosing not to do so does not mean you were harmed.
*Some classic examples are putting a waterwheel on a stream that runs downriver (which will reduce the flow and prevent the person downriver from also being able to operate a waterwheel, the amount of regulation required for waterways is absolutely staggering because of how many externalities water allows one to offload onto their neighbors) and putting pollution into the atmosphere that will affect everybody in the surrounding area.
This can actually be solved via property rights, by assigning each lot of the river a tradeable right to decrease flow by some %, etc. Not fatal to libertarianism at all. There's more specifics here, but it works similarly-ish to how a state can sue another state for using too much water, but on an individual basis. Combine that with the ability to buy and sell legal harms, and you've got a business going that sues people for overusing water. And initial hand out of % would be based on what % was historically used, as per Locke's understanding of creating property by combining nature with labor, they then own that % of flow. Or maybe don't use % but absolute flow rate.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Sure, whatever. Why is it fine for government to allow a person to do it to themselves, but not allow another to do it? That's my issue here. Square this circle please.

1. Because seriously harming another, even with their consent, is fundamentally different than harming yourself.
2. Because it opens the door to massive amounts of abuse. Have fun getting the mob in trouble for roughing you up when they forced you to sign a consent form to your beating before they'd stop.

How do you not already know these things?
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Here's the thing, you can believe all of the above, and also believe it's Blaire White's right to transition (not it being provided for her free of charge, but for her to pay someone willing to do it, and that person doing it). Basically, it's not the job of the government to nanny state you.
Yes you can believe all of this. I was saying the government already restricts what you can do the government WILL stop you from killing your self it’s not some brand new restriction we came up with this is consistent with practices that are already happening and most don’t complain about.

Thanks! What view do you have of government in regards to this, that allows the government to step in and use violence to stop this?
Me personally? I har a big thing on why I don’t believe in most rights earlier. I’ll summarize it. Basically I think that if there is no god then nothing is true and everything is permitted, rights do not exist as they are not physical things we can see. Thus assuming god exists is the only way we can believe in unalienable universal self evident rights or god given. But to say something is god given we have to show how or where god gave it. I’m Christian so I use Christianity. God did not sanction you to cross dress or change your sex. Thus someone stopping you from doing that is not violating your god given rights. The way I see it for humans there are three categories of actions first is always prohibited god ordered man to not do this. So even if a government made something legal like gay sex it’s not a right. You won’t face legal sanctions but it’s still not a right it’s just what the government said is permitted. The second are things that are permitted unless the law forbids it. Christians are told to obey the earthly authorities so if where you live the government banned the color red for example then a Christian should follow the law. These are up to the government to give and take within reason. The final thing are those that Christian’s are obligated to do or can do no matter what. For example praying, breathing living, eating, wearing clothes to be modest. These are the things I would consider actually rights in the way others do they are inviolable the government may not prohibit or make them illegal.

Fair enough. What about the comparison to signing up for a combat role in the military?
Still not a good example because there is only a POSSIBILITY of dying or getting maimed it’s not a guarantee. Being a tranny is one way once you go through with that you can’t come back and have your genitals fixed to what they were before you are a unique eunuch. If tech advances far enough where people could do brain transfers to other bodies then your arguments about trans kids and adults would hold water as they could switch between male and female and it would be reversable. But now it’s a permanent thing there is no reversing it.
A human body has an inherent moral value that a car lacks. I'd still say it's a minor moral failing to damage a functional car for no other reason than a fit of pique, but not something the state should get involved with.

My standard of government is quite consistent. I don't go with Abhorsen's libertarianism because it is blind to reality. I do hold a Christian standard, because God has given us stewardship of our own bodies. That's part of why physical self-destruction is not moral, but because I have stewardship of my own body, I can still do so if I wish.
Ok I do agree with stewardship ship but stewardship is not ownership.

On the whole, 'it is acceptable for a doctor to help a patient self-harm' is a terrible door to leave open, fraught with massive abuse potential and perverse incentives. And that's before we get into political types using this open door to push for various undesireables to be given 'treatments,' such as what some people on this forum like to talk about with lobotomization having once been considered a 'treatment' for homosexuality.
Oh another thing to consider is that doctors have an oath to do no harm cutting someone up like that seems like harm to me another reason to not let doctors kill suicidal individuals. Thank you lord fire.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
That's you showing yourself off, outside your own property. And note, there are times this is legal too, such as when a man stripped in an airport to protest the TSA.
You know full well that indecency laws apply to broadcasts, signage, and other displays, including displays on your own property if there's any expectation anybody can see it from off the property. Quit trying to use pedantic tricks.

No, it's governments using those externalities as a smokescreen to go down the slope on purpose. I just gave two examples, and I didn't mention gun control or censorship at all here?

But sure, let's use gun control: The entire history of gun control up until the mid 2000s. A slippery slops of promised safety used to rob freedoms.
Or censorship. Banning harmful words in the UK eventually lead to arresting people praying silently. Not quite censorship, but the government (notably the FBI) uses the excuse of needing to investigate crime such as child porn to campaign and sue anyone offering strong encryption, to try to get them to break it. And I want laws against child porn, I'm just well aware the government will try to use them to expand its reach.
Yes, that was my error, I misread your putting the phrase "Put a gun to their heads" as a gun control message.

The two examples you did give, parenting and the government claiming distrust of government is an externality.

For the first, there's no connection between externalities and parenting. Abusive parenting causes direct harm, it has no externality involved. Non-abusive parenting causes no harm, it has no externality involved.

For the second, words have meanings. Given how pedantic you are I'm surprised you'd miss that.

Gun control does have externalities involved and most reasonable gun control advocates understand and accept it. That's why, f'rex, most gun control advocates are in favor of gun owners using safes and responsible storage, and why all but the most fanatic 2A supporters do not support rando civilians owning explosives or nuclear weapons because they have a 100% chance of blowing up bystanders if used in self-defense. That externality matters.

No, they really aren't. Because most externalities are willingly taken up, including this one, so it is no harm. The only externalities that matter to a Libertarian are those that aren't consensually taken up, such as pollution.

Basically, you can leave someone to starve on the street. You choosing not to do so does not mean you were harmed.
And that is why you fail. Not bothering to take basic human nature into account guarantees your system of ideals will not work in real life.

You can leave someone to die in the street... but you will create negative externalities for the whole community. First the starving person is likely to spread disease as they sicken. Second, they'll become a nuisance in the public square. If they die in the street, well somebody's going to have to pay to clean up that corpse and bury them.

Of course, it won't come to that, because nobody actually follows libertarian ideals and the starving person is going to turn to crime to survive, which will further cause harm to external people and the community.

And of course, the reason most externalities are willingly taken up these days is because we regulate the hell out of externalities. We don't have factory workers getting phossy jaw because the government came down on the unsafe practices that caused it like the fist of an angry god, but it happened for decades before that and years of citizens trying to come up with market-based solutions failed utterly. We don't have utter bullshit like the Triangle Shirtwaist Company* anymore because of regulations stopping it, not because human nature would prevent another Triangle Shirtwaist, otherwise it wouldn't have happened the first time. Remove those regulations and the externalities will be forced upon the citizenry again. We don't have buildings routinely collapsing and killing people or massive fires like the one that ate Chicago in 1871 because of building codes and regulations, but we did have that happening all the time before those regulations existed.

This can actually be solved via property rights, by assigning each lot of the river a tradeable right to decrease flow by some %, etc. Not fatal to libertarianism at all. There's more specifics here, but it works similarly-ish to how a state can sue another state for using too much water, but on an individual basis. Combine that with the ability to buy and sell legal harms, and you've got a business going that sues people for overusing water. And initial hand out of % would be based on what % was historically used, as per Locke's understanding of creating property by combining nature with labor, they then own that % of flow. Or maybe don't use % but absolute flow rate.
And who is going to assign these lots and regulate them? Sounds like a big government to me.

And to toy with your slippery-slope all-the-way-to-one-side-slider fallacies, why won't they apply this system to everything else? Assign lots to people for how high and what shape they can build their homes, because it could cast a shadow on their neighbor's yard and reduce the sunlight available (Note this isn't purely hypothetical, Japan actually needs laws for this due to how closely buildings are spaced). Assign lots for how much air pollution you can cause. Hey, why not assign lots for how many children a person is permitted to have? After all, having too many kids risks causing harm by them not being able to feed them all, so logically only the really wealthy should be able to have as many children as they want. The public roads, well those are maintained at the taxpayer expense, and the atmosphere we breath is supported by plants, which are crushed when people walk on them, so let's assign lots as to how much walking and driving a person is allowed to do each week, and enforce that every person must grow maintain a specific amount of plants that will offset their carbon production.

And then at the end... you've made a government bigger and more intrusive than the one you're railing against.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
And you missed the bus on injuring. I think this is the key problem. It's not about what is done, it's about what was consented to. Should people be able to sell another person a cigarette? We know it'll harm the user. Yes, it's a lot less harm, but it still causes harm. Same with tanning beds and tattoos and going into a UFC ring to fight (and there, they turn them on, not the user, as if that matters). There's nothing morally wrong with that, because it was consented to. The difference you try to split between the person doing X to themselves, and a person doing X to another with consent, is morally meaningless.
Except it isn't consent, because most people are deliberately kept ignorant as to what they're consenting to when it comes to transition surgery. In fact, many of them are being tricked into getting a surgery to fix a problem they don't actually have; so when it turns out that chopping off their genitals doesn't fix what's actually wrong with them, they end up either cast out and shunned like a leper from the very cult that tricked them into mutilating themselves for coming to the realization that they are not in fact trans, or committing suicide.

That's not even getting into the fact that, in today's insane regressive left controlled society, not being trans is treated more and more like an unforgivable sin; a sign that one is inherently evil, and a threat to everyone who is trans.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Part of the issue @Abhorsen is that you're pulling a thing a lot of Libertarians do: talking about Spherical Cows. AKA Talking about a perfect theoretical situation where both parties are fully informed and fully within their mental capacity with no outside pressure. In such a perfect scenario, it really does only come down to what the two parties involved will consent to and want, and within that his viewpoint makes a degree of sense.

That said, those opposing Abhorsen are reacting to the situation as they see it: a situation in which the pro-gender reassignment surgery group has falsified studies, uses cult tactics (isolation, love-bombing, shunning) to indoctrinate and draw people in, and in general act in such ways that make them suspicious of anyone who wants such surgery as actually wanting such things. Within the world as these folks see it, there IS no actual ability for either party to have informed consent, as the information sphere is so polluted by false information and cultist pressure to supply people with gender reassignment surgeries. Because of this it is better for both the individual and society at large to explicitly suppress and deny such surgery until such a time as true information can come out and proper assessments of a person's mental state, without the preconceived bias that is inherent to the present methods of treating bodily sexual dysmorphia.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top