Trade Unions for or Against?

[Free-Stater 101]

What it says. What is all of your opinions on trade unions?

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

good in theory in practice they essentially just become guilds with a different name.

 

[Abhorsen]

Eh, I'm fine with private sector unions. The public sector ones are problems.

 

[The Mandarin]

They are terrorist organizations, often as corrupt and murderous as the greedy, apathetic board of directors they allegedly oppose. Nothing good has been done for common people by Unions in almost a century.

 

[gral]

Good in theory; in practice, similar to what the above post says.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

So, what'd you guys propose as an alternative?

And aside from function, you have to be able to account for whatever biases those in favour of said Unions have, as I've tried arguing similar stuff before only for them to double down and proceed to start gaslighting

Yeah....they kinda went around the whole "That "free education" isn't free and those universities jack up their prices to pay for their corrupt professors and worthless college degrees that don't lead to paying jobs in large numbers" only to keep going around what I'm actually saying and accuse me of shit

So whatever alternative there is, really has to be something easy even for crazy commies to actually acknowledge

 

[Abhishekm]

Certifications. Trade Schools as in actual trade schools. Teach a skill, certify a person's skill in their vocation backed by the institution and call it that. Actual path like it back in India. After our 10th grade education general paths are higher education or vocational. So 2 more years of highschool or switch to a practical vocation training for 3-4 years immediately. Both have avenues for college if you desire.

One just has on job training and gets you work experience for the resume.

 

[Doomsought]

They are terrorist organizations, often as corrupt and murderous as the greedy, apathetic board of directors they allegedly oppose. Nothing good has been done for common people by Unions in almost a century.

Having worked a union job, yes They only care about weird things like seniority.

For 30 minutes of extra pay, they reduced our lunch by 10 minutes, which had a knock on effect of making us loose our cafeteria service (which was excellent).

 

[Battlegrinder]

This really depends on the country and climate. In the US, unions suck. In Europe, I hear they're a lot better, because unions there are more about working with the company to reach the best outcome, instead of the US system where it's more adversarial.

 

[Von_Lohengram]

This really depends on the country and climate. In the US, unions suck. In Europe, I hear they're a lot better, because unions there are more about working with the company to reach the best outcome, instead of the US system where it's more adversarial.

This!

So my own answer regarding unions:
Private sector permitted, just ban public sector ones.

And with permitted, I mean just that: Unions are allowed to exists and you are allowed to join. No Closed Shops or Agency Fees or any of that other stuff unions in the US and until Maggie also in the UK had to compel people to de-jure or de-facto join a union. I believe that most of the issues with Unions in the American private sector would not be, well issues if members could vote with their feet like in Europe.
If someone considers this position naive then let me draw your attention to another matter, where things are different in Europe:
I don't think anyone here is going to die from shock upon hearing that the curriculum in Swedish schools is rather progressive, when it comes to "teaching" about feminism, racial harmony, economics, world peace, etc. Yet unlike state schools in Democrat areas in the US, they also manage to teach reading, writing, math, natural sciences, the laws of supply and demand, even reactionary stuff like why private investment requires profits, etc. Now it just so happens, that Sweden has School Choice. Parents can pick which school in their municipality they send their children to and schools funding is affected by that.
That same mechanism is why I think, that most of the problems with US Unions in the private sector would be at the very least much reduced if the was no mandatory unionization and members could vote with their feet.

 

[The Mandarin]

Having worked a union job, yes They only care about weird things like seniority.

For 30 minutes of extra pay, they reduced our lunch by 10 minutes, which had a knock on effect of making us loose our cafeteria service (which was excellent).

LOL! Holy shit, that's a great example of them being as short sighted and stupid as the Board that doesn't care about its customers and only the shareholders. Pray tell, how does that extra pay help if your ability to shoot the shit and have a decent lunch vanishes and morale crashes or you end up blowing those extra bucks on take out?

So my own answer regarding unions:
Private sector permitted, just ban public sector ones.

I don't even know why those exist, their mere existence violates any form of representative government by creating an elite class.

 

[Cherico]

I feel like their envitable part of capitalism.

When ever the price of labor goes below what the market can bear unions spring up, when management gets too abusive unions spring up. I neither hate nor love them and just see them as a part of the system.


Now when it comes to public sector unions that is a different story, private sector unions are held in check by the balance of power between management and the economy. There is inherently less of a balance when your job is from the government, all that did was take a group of people who already had secure lively hoods and make it almost impossible to get rid of the assholes.

 

[JagerIV]

For Unions, I more or less take this stance:

"I'm not an anarchist, but I do not support the USSR and maybe no state would be better than the USSR."

I am not anti union, and recognize something like them probably has to exist, but the American Union is often a terrible thing that needs to die, and nothing might be better than the current organization.

Current unions in the US because they have these elaborate regulations and close relations with the state almost act as de facto arms of the state, and act more as pro government entities rather than pro worker pro industry organizations.

 

[Grimn]

Employees banding together as a union is absolutely a good thing and should be part of any free market. Unions becoming institutionalised as closed shops, protecting seniors or the corrupt is not. It seems to me that the US has the worst of it, with the corruption etc. Teacher's unions is one thing but fucking cops? Jesus.

 

[Navarro]

Employees banding together as a union is absolutely a good thing and should be part of any free market. Unions becoming institutionalised as closed shops, protecting seniors or the corrupt is not. It seems to me that the US has the worst of it, with the corruption etc. Teacher's unions is one thing but fucking cops? Jesus.

This is one thing the USA could copy the EU on - closed shops are illegal there as a result of a court case which granted that they violated a right of freedom of negative association.

 

[Sailor.X]

I feel like their envitable part of capitalism.

When ever the price of labor goes below what the market can bear unions spring up, when management gets too abusive unions spring up. I neither hate nor love them and just see them as a part of the system.


Now when it comes to public sector unions that is a different story, private sector unions are held in check by the balance of power between management and the economy. There is inherently less of a balance when your job is from the government, all that did was take a group of people who already had secure lively hoods and make it almost impossible to get rid of the assholes.

This. Some people here may not be aware of just how abusive the Robber Barons and other Businessman of the Late 19th and Early 20th Century were to their workers. I mean some straight up slavery shit. And multiple violations of the US Constitution going on in Company Towns and Factories. That is the reason we ended up with so many unions. And now in some right to work states you are seeing some Businesses try to screw over workers claiming the Right to Work mantra. When those same Businessman collude with their buddies to keep wages low. That is why we need to have an option in Right to work states for workers to form a union if their rights are being violated.

 

[Doomsought]

This is one thing the USA could copy the EU on - closed shops are illegal there as a result of a court case which granted that they violated a right of freedom of negative association.

There was an effort to do that, called right to work, but the Unions have propagandized that right to work means something else.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Employees banding together as a union is absolutely a good thing and should be part of any free market. Unions becoming institutionalised as closed shops, protecting seniors or the corrupt is not. It seems to me that the US has the worst of it, with the corruption etc. Teacher's unions is one thing but fucking cops? Jesus.

If it's totally ok for teachers to have a union, why shouldn't the police (or if the cops shouldn't have a union, why do the arguements against them not apply to teachers?).

 

[JagerIV]

Yeah, if anything recent events have shown many reasons cops need something like a union, to protect members from politically driven prosecution.

Thus, you need things that can perform the role of Unions, but not necessarily unions.

 

[Abhorsen]

If it's totally ok for teachers to have a union, why shouldn't the police (or if the cops shouldn't have a union, why do the arguements against them not apply to teachers?).

In my opinion, they are both corrupt as hell, but there is an argument to be made that since cops can kill and unions have a say over whether they get prosecuted, that makes them an order of magnitude worse in results given similar levels of corruption.

Yeah, if anything recent events have shown many reasons cops need something like a union, to protect members from politically driven prosecution.

Thus, you need things that can perform the role of Unions, but not necessarily unions.

Oh hell no they don't. Police unions are perhaps the worse of them all. Although there have been a couple of politically motivated prosecutions, there have been far, far more politically motivated non-prosecutions.