Stargate Through the Looking Glass and into Heaven.

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
O’Neill blinked. Why the hell did Hammond want him? He’d been retired, did he want to give some sort of motivational speech to new recruits? Jack sucked at that. He had to know that, so then…wait, his commission got reactivated? Could they even do that anymore? Even to old Spooks like him? Why the hell did they…And then it hit him.

No, no, no, no, no he fucking warned them!

<Adam Jensen>I never asked for this</Adam Jensen>


Apophis couldn’t control his lusts, he’d been dangerously bored this last century and the System Lord Teal’c had once respected, admired and loved was now acting like a drunken thug.

Immortality, peace, and plenty leading to ennui and moral degeneration. I'm sensing a theme here...
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Odds are that the SGC, as a spec ops branch, will have first dibs on these things, whatever their formal designation will be:


Admittedly, since the trials aren't over yet, there's a decent chance they get these things too:



It'd be funny as hell if the SGC wound up deciding they want the Textron ammo in the GD bullpup format for their rifles.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
Odds are that the SGC, as a spec ops branch, will have first dibs on these things, whatever their formal designation will be:

I am not a fan of this program. 6.8 is less efficient logistically (rounds per unit of volume and mass shipped/carried) than 5.56 for a negligible gain in momentum carried down range. Last I looked the NGSW has a twenty round box magazine. A twenty round box magazine in an automatic rifle? Is thing state of the art for 1918? And the super 'over-match' performance from the new ammo requires stupid high chamber pressures, this doesn't bode well for long term maintenance.

If I'm stepping into a hole in reality to travel between the stars to fight ancient alien daimon possessed men, I want to carry proven weapons with lots of ammo that are simple to maintain and repair in the field away from main support.
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
If I'm stepping into a hole in reality to travel between the stars to fight ancient alien daimon possessed men, I want to carry proven weapons with lots of ammo that are simple to maintain and repair in the field away from main support.
The Textron stuff is super simple to clean and clear. It's even easier than the existing guns in inventory.

That said, whether or not the Army's overmatch thing is dumb (and this is certainly something characters in the story can comment on), it's not just a new rifle/LMG and new ammo. It's a new smart sight and whatever other gizmos they're whipping up, like the suppressors. They're committed to this, and every branch is going to be forced to conform, so Stargate Command getting in early (assuming SOCOM doesn't force it into the trials regardless) makes the winner more conformant to their needs.

Plus, I get the feeling that the Jaffa are generally going to be more capable and much more of a threat than in canon, and I don't think 5.56x45mm is going to cut it past scrub garrison troops with shitty gear. 7.62x51mm would be the only available option, except there isn't a standardized rifle for it, and the ammo would weigh more than any of the polymer cased 6.8mm ammo, never mind the other performance characteristics.

Plus, at this stage of the game, they're not going to be getting into any long firefights, so ammo capacity and availability wouldn't really matter for the recon teams.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
The Textron stuff is super simple to clean and clear. It's even easier than the existing guns in inventory.

That said, whether or not the Army's overmatch thing is dumb (and this is certainly something characters in the story can comment on), it's not just a new rifle/LMG and new ammo. It's a new smart sight and whatever other gizmos they're whipping up, like the suppressors. They're committed to this, and every branch is going to be forced to conform, so Stargate Command getting in early (assuming SOCOM doesn't force it into the trials regardless) makes the winner more conformant to their needs.

Plus, I get the feeling that the Jaffa are generally going to be more capable and much more of a threat than in canon, and I don't think 5.56x45mm is going to cut it past scrub garrison troops with shitty gear. 7.62x51mm would be the only available option, except there isn't a standardized rifle for it, and the ammo would weigh more than any of the polymer cased 6.8mm ammo, never mind the other performance characteristics.

Plus, at this stage of the game, they're not going to be getting into any long firefights, so ammo capacity and availability wouldn't really matter for the recon teams.

I'll admit the stated design goals of the program make more sense if you're fighting Goa'uld than Russia or China, but it all still reeks of military industrial complex boondoggle nest feathering to me. Since SG teams are special forces, issuing tungsten cored ammo shouldn't be a deal breaker like it would be for line troops, which really changes the penetration curve for 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. Look at m995 AP3 and AP4 for the 5.56 and m993 and m948 SLAP for the 7.62 DMR, these can defeat class IV.

Besides the USMC/USN M27/M110A1/Mk48 combo are already in the system and don't rely on TS/SCI vaporware prototypes. Although I will say, if Immortal goes this way, the Textron telescoped-case (CT) ammo is the way to go, lighter and shorter than the equivalent conventual loading, that's revolutionary if it works. As far as the General Dynamics bullpup, bleh :sick:. Bullpups are just a way to make everything more difficult than it has to be, with little real benefits in the field. Worse trigger pull, worse reload ergos, worse immediate action ergos, just worse ergonomics overall. The ideal would be the SIG platforms with the Textron ammo.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
Keep going on the gun conversation, this shit is informative as hell and its helping me figure out how to equip the SG teams going forward!

The Infantry School at Fort Benning is also interested in new improved projectiles for existing platforms as an interim solution cum stopgap if the NGSW fails to materialize.

During Thursday’s hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, Army Chief of Staff Mark Milley spoke before the Senate and answered questions about the Army’s readiness and future modernization efforts. One of the concerns raised by the hearing’s members was that of the inability of current US Army small arms ammunition to penetrate current Level IV-type hard ceramic plates, such as the Army’s own E-SAPI plates. A transcript of a conversation between General Milley and Senator Angus King is given below:

King: “…One of the things we learned [from the hearing on the 18th] was that the current M4 caliber ammunition will not penetrate the newly developed body armor of our adversaries, which is to me a disaster in waiting. Your thoughts on a new weapon and how do we do the procurement in a timely and cost-effective way, and avoid some of these problems that we’ve had in the past. First do you think this is an important area of attention, and second can we pull it off in a reasonable amount of time at a reasonable cost?”

Milley: “I think yes and yes. I think it is critically important. 70% of American casualties are ground forces, typically infantry, special forces type units or units performing infantry missions, and the small arm and the other equipment to include body armor SAPI plates, and so on is critical, and we oughta be providing the very very best for our soldiers that our nation can provide. The 5.56 round, we recognize that there is a type of body armor out there that it doesn’t penetrate – we also have that body armor ourselves – and that adversarial states are actually selling that stuff on the Internet for about 250 bucks. So, yes, there’s a need, and there’s an operational need, and we think we can do it relatively quickly. The key on any of these things is not so much the rifle, it’s the bullet. It’s the ballistics of the bullet, and down at Fort Benning, we’ve done some developmental work, we think we have a solution that we know we have developed a bullet that can penetrate these new plates, so-

King: “Does this bullet require a new rifle?”

Milley: “It might, but probably not. It could, it could be chambered – the bullet can be chambered in various calibers – I don’t want to get into the technicals of ballistics, but it can be modified to 5.56, 7.62, or, uh-”

King: “Is there a possibility of an off the shelf, an existing rifle that could be an upgrade to the M4?”

Milley: “Yes. There’s several options out there.”

King: “And that would be an option, I-”

Milley: “There’s absolutely options out there.”

King: “I commend that option to you.”

 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
The discussion on the lack of penetrating power is interesting for a lot of alarming RL reasons but for this fic it's gonna mean anything that isn't capable of shredding the best armor earth has probably isn't going to be of much use against Jaffa.

Theyre probably also going to need stuff that can dissipate heat to some degree.

One question I wanted to ask is when should I start incorporating some back engineered armor and weaponry into the SG teams? I intend to do it later in the story, during the equivalent of season 5 or so. But to what degree and how much of it is what I'm iffy on.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
The discussion on the lack of penetrating power is interesting for a lot of alarming RL reasons but for this fic it's gonna mean anything that isn't capable of shredding the best armor earth has probably isn't going to be of much use against Jaffa.

Theyre probably also going to need stuff that can dissipate heat to some degree.

One question I wanted to ask is when should I start incorporating some back engineered armor and weaponry into the SG teams? I intend to do it later in the story, during the equivalent of season 5 or so. But to what degree and how much of it is what I'm iffy on.

Right that's the big question, how effective is the Jaffa's body armour? Level III? IIIa? IV?

If the Jaffa are wearing full body suits of armour that exceeds our level IV plates, that's a nightmare scenario that pretty much requires something like the very finest tungsten-carbide AP ammo, the new NGSW, or a new family of weapons based on something like .338 Lapua necked up to .50 to handle the sabot for the steel penetrator, to defeat.

As far as reverse engineering; they could get a head start on teching up for the war to come if they swallow their pride and make nice with the icky eugenics warriors in that season IV episode, 'The Other Side'; the Eurondans .
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
The discussion on the lack of penetrating power is interesting for a lot of alarming RL reasons but for this fic it's gonna mean anything that isn't capable of shredding the best armor earth has probably isn't going to be of much use against Jaffa.

Theyre probably also going to need stuff that can dissipate heat to some degree.

One question I wanted to ask is when should I start incorporating some back engineered armor and weaponry into the SG teams? I intend to do it later in the story, during the equivalent of season 5 or so. But to what degree and how much of it is what I'm iffy on.

That really depends on how much exposure risk you want the Earth's governments to embrace.

Higher risk means quicker development. I'm betting there will be lots of secrecy. So I wouldn't expect to see much beyond prototyping for the first over the 1st 5 years, production would require probably a decade for the tools to be made to make the tools to make the tools...you get the picture.
 
Jaffa armor

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Right that's the big question, how effective is the Jaffa's body armour? Level III? IIIa? IV?


It's armor designed primarily to stand up to energy weaponry, hence Ras honor guard could take two or three hits from a staff weapon to the chest before going down when they were armored properly. Final battle had a bunch of them rushed outside. Their helmets contain their own life support system in case they have to fight in a low to no oxygen environment. Jaffa are immune to most poisons and resistant to a lot of nerve agents so the masks are designed more for visual aid and communications.

The original SG team was equipped with the standard stuff that marines would carry at the time minus Ferrettis Ventura style minigun :p

They were able to wear down Jaffa armor through sustained fire, is how I've written it.

So they can be penetrated but it takes time and time and ammo wasted wearing them down = lives lost as Hammond and O’Neill both found out. Though Hammond more so due to the fact that Ra's guys were equipped for ceremonial duty and dealing with primitives.l and thus they were able to shoot at exposed areas where they were barely clothed.

A properly armored Serpent Guard who are the military backbone of the Empire would look something like this

Es7SqEfXMAMyEXe.jpg





]If the Jaffa are wearing full body suits of armour that exceeds our level IV plates, that's a nightmare scenario that pretty much requires something like the very finest tungsten-carbide AP ammo, the new NGSW, or a new family of weapons based on something like .338 Lapua necked up to .50 to handle the sabot for the steel penetrator, to defeat

For stopping power it would probably be above level IV plates. At least when going up against the Serpent Legions or the Bull guard that belong to Horus. That would be the Marine/Army equivalent.


As far as reverse engineering; they could get a head start on teching up for the war to come if they swallow their pride and make nice with the icky eugenics warriors in that season IV episode, 'The Other Side'; the Eurondans .

Well SG1s primary job would be to avoid that war via politicking. They aren't opposing all System Lords and while what they did to Ra and what they will do on Chulak will be the Goa'uld equivalent of 9-11 but once it becomes clear why they did what they did it will make both Ra and Apophis look like the aggressors and mitigate that.

Plus you're assuming this will be like the show where all System lords are enemies period
There's no reason for say Amaterasu or Ba'al to make a low key alliance with the Tau'Ri or hell even Hathor for that matter.

Since they're not interested in tearing apart the empire and ruining the only source of stability. They may wish to use The SGC against Apophis to keep their hands clean.

That really depends on how much exposure risk you want the Earth's governments to embrace.

Higher risk means quicker development. I'm betting there will be lots of secrecy. So I wouldn't expect to see much beyond prototyping for the first over the 1st 5 years, production would require probably a decade for the tools to be made to make the tools to make the tools...you get the picture.

For now, what the SGC is ordered to obtain are clean energy sources and pharmacological stuff. And some atmosphere scrubbing flowers that will show up in a few "episodes"

Weaponry and armor is going to be a secondary concern which O'Neill and Hammond both will think is mighty bizarre.

But yeah there will be a lot more civilian involvement in this.

Hell even Sam Carter is technically civilian in this timeline.

So security concerns will be paramount and maybe something I'll explore.

What I really expect to see more of in the first 2 seasons is the use of captured equipment.

Yes! That indeed will happen.

Yes, especially if Jaffa armour is hard to penetrate, stealing and using their blasters will be a priority, as will reverse engineering them.

Indeed.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
For stopping power it would probably be above level IV plates.

Well shit. Then they absolutely need the NGSW (which needs a better name) in their hands. The initial teams will probably start with USMC m27 IARs and find themselves undergunned, going to increasingly rare special purpose AP ammo to get penetrations, before Hammond pulls strings to get the new toys. The only other alternative would be breaking out SCAR-Hs from the USSOCOM inventory and loading with SLAP. They'd look like XCOM operatives then.

The little P90s from the show? Forget about it.
 

bullethead

Part-time fanfic writer
Super Moderator
Staff Member
The ideal would be the SIG platforms with the Textron ammo.
Sig's guns are literally the worst of all worlds and wouldn't work with Textron ammo. You have to use an entirely different action because they feature push-through extraction, not pull-out extraction like modern guns do.

Sig is only in the running because they needed two competitors to Textron for legal reasons. They literally won this race before it even started due to their work on the LSAT program with 5.56mm and 7.62mm. (The reason the Army didn't just go with that is because they didn't think those rounds were good enough anymore, which is how we wound up with the new 6.8mm ones.)
During Thursday’s hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, Army Chief of Staff Mark Milley spoke before the Senate and answered questions about the Army’s readiness and future modernization efforts.
This is from 2017.

The Army did put out a new armor piercing round last year, but it's one of those "here's some part of a failed M4 replacement program that didn't work" things that's probably going to be drawn down once the NGSW winner is announced.


I'm not denying that the AP rounds we have aren't good, but saying it's worth dismissing the NGSW stuff out of hand is kind of dumb - especially when 2 out of the 3 competitors are definitely lighter and handier than existing weapons in inventory, which is a big help when you're off on some planet walking around looking at things.

And even if the SGC did go conventional, they'd have to switch over to the NGSW winner anyway, so it's not like they'd be saving themselves any time, money, or hassle by punting the issue down the line.

Edit: Well, that word of god made all the arguing pointless. It's a matter of which NGSW solution is better for the SGC's use case now.
 

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
The Army did put out a new armor piercing round last year, but it's one of those "here's some part of a failed M4 replacement program that didn't work" things that's probably going to be drawn down once the NGSW winner is announced.

Not to derail the story thread, but I remain skeptical that a winner will be declared in real life. The idea that the DoD actually wants to spend money of infantry firearms, especially at the level that replacing the huge investment in the existing install base just doesn't make sense to me. Have we even had field trials yet?
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
@bullethead I hope I've alleviated some of your concerns regarding Jack when I introd the NID.

I'd also like your view on how I'm handling Goa'uld society, it's rules and how it relates to the Jaffa and the Jaffa themselves.

Same for the rest of you guys.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top