The Americas The - "Why Should I have to State Pinochet was terrible?" - Thread

I like how discussion on Pinochet in this topic centers around sheer whataboutism, as if we need to be reminded constantly of his own atrocities.

Personally, I blame leftists being triggered by Pinochet memes that involve throwing communists off helicopters.

Yeah, Pinochet was an evil dictator.

Those helicopter memes are hilarious, though. Especially when the Marxists start turning red.
 
I like how discussion on Pinochet in this topic centers around sheer whataboutism, as if we need to be reminded constantly of his own atrocities.

Personally, I blame leftists being triggered by Pinochet memes that involve throwing communists off helicopters.

Yeah, Pinochet was an evil dictator.

Those helicopter memes are hilarious, though. Especially when the Marxists start turning red.

I find them about as funny as memes about kulaks being shot and how Stalin did nothing wrong.

That is, not at all.

I respect those victimised by the atrocities enough to not mock them. And considering that Pinochet threw more than communists off the helicopters, so should you.
 
"You're not allowed to find absolutely anything hilarious about a long-dead dictator because of hurt feelings of long-dead victims!"

Yes, yes, keep up the schoolmarm nagging language and thought policing, it's doing a wonderful job making me change my mind...

The moral high ground has a certain appeal I'll admit. But I confess being the one holding it consistently is tiring. (I mean seriously who uses terms like thought policing with a straight face when asking someone to be respectful of the dead?)
 
I find them about as funny as memes about kulaks being shot and how Stalin did nothing wrong.

That is, not at all.

I respect those victimised by the atrocities enough to not mock them. And considering that Pinochet threw more than communists off the helicopters, so should you.

*Looks at your avatar*

Okay, this begs the question. I assume you think Stalin did some bad stuff (probably the mildest way I can phrase Stalin's actions), why then have a picture of the man as your avatar?
 
*Looks at your avatar*

Okay, this begs the question. I assume you think Stalin did some bad stuff (probably the mildest way I can phrase Stalin's actions), why then have a picture of the man as your avatar?

Because i'm in the meme thread roleplaying a communist is why.

Also because I haven't found a suitable avatar for this forum yet so I went "fuck it i'll just put Stalin as my profile" (I have been considering peridot from steven universe)
 
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Power is all the mandate that one actually needs.

Saying that Pinochet had a democratic mandate for his actions is farcical, but that doesn't mean that he didn't have a mandate. He did, it was the mandate of having the power to do what he wanted.

The commie didn't have a democratic mandate for his antics either, but unlike Pinochet he also lacked the power to do what he wanted (if he had said power then Pinochet wouldn't have been able to replace him).
And power, as well all know, ultimately comes from violence;
 
I find them about as funny as memes about kulaks being shot and how Stalin did nothing wrong.

That is, not at all.

I respect those victimised by the atrocities enough to not mock them. And considering that Pinochet threw more than communists off the helicopters, so should you.

You have Stalin's image and an allusion to him in your username. You clearly believe there's some kind of joke to be said about Stalin. Why not Pinochet? What makes Pinochet worse than Stalin?
 
Because i'm in the meme thread roleplaying a communist is why.

Also because I haven't found a suitable avatar for this forum yet so I went "fuck it i'll just put Stalin on my profile"

Hm...

I don't know you well enough if you'd display imagery of Stalin/Mao/Castro/Che/Lenin/etc in public in a positive light, let alone wear clothing anything like that, but generally, the people who seemingly are most upset with the Pinochet Helicopter Rides meme would be those very same people wearing that Che t-shirt. I don't see much of a moral high ground complaining about a meme while you wear the shirt displaying the face of a murderer.

Perhaps you don't do such things, yet, eh, you still have the avatar of Josef Stalin. Roleplaying as a communist is all well and good, but you could have taken one of the Soviet leaders in Red Alert, or threw in Laika the dog. Yet instead, it's a completely humorless image of one of the biggest mass murderers in human history. So here I am reading you condemning the use of a meme since it disrespects the victims, yet at the same time have your avatar be Josef Stalin, with no consideration for his victims.

Your moral high ground you think you hold is nothing more than a soapbox.
 
Hm...

I don't know you well enough if you'd display imagery of Stalin/Mao/Castro/Che/Lenin/etc in public in a positive light, let alone wear clothing anything like that, but generally, the people who seemingly are most upset with the Pinochet Helicopter Rides meme would be those very same people wearing that Che t-shirt. I don't see much of a moral high ground complaining about a meme while you wear the shirt displaying the face of a murderer.

Perhaps you don't do such things, yet, eh, you still have the avatar of Josef Stalin. Roleplaying as a communist is all well and good, but you could have taken one of the Soviet leaders in Red Alert, or threw in Laika the dog. Yet instead, it's a completely humorless image of one of the biggest mass murderers in human history. So here I am reading you condemning the use of a meme since it disrespects the victims, yet at the same time have your avatar be Josef Stalin, with no consideration for his victims.

Your moral high ground you think you hold is nothing more than a soapbox.

Compared to some of the stuff in this thread a soapbox may as well be a mountain. (hence why i'm surprised about it, seriously, I came to this site because it'd be a good debating forum and I've ended up being repeatedly appalled about one thing or another.)

Don't get the fascination with the shirts personally, or anyone elses face for that matter.

About the avatar though, well you ain't wrong to say its probably not the best of choices. I'll take the advice on board and switch it.
 
You have Stalin's image and an allusion to him in your username. You clearly believe there's some kind of joke to be said about Stalin. Why not Pinochet? What makes Pinochet worse than Stalin?

Again, my entire profile including the name was "i need to roleplay a communist, how tf I do that". In terms of deathcount Stalin IS worse than pinochet, and if someone had a pinochet profile i'd probably just go "eh, i'll keep an eye on em." Its not the image, its the words, so to speak. I've not suported stalin once, plenty have supported the rapist bastard.
 
Again, my entire profile including the name was "i need to roleplay a communist, how tf I do that". In terms of deathcount Stalin IS worse than pinochet, and if someone had a pinochet profile i'd probably just go "eh, i'll keep an eye on em." Its not the image, its the words, so to speak. I've not suported stalin once, plenty have supported the rapist bastard.

There aren't many who supported him though? The majority in this thread are just pointing out that the one good thing he did was halt a communist revolution, but still acknowledge that he was a bad guy. Or are you seeing something different?
 
There aren't many who supported him though? The majority in this thread are just pointing out that the one good thing he did was halt a communist revolution, but still acknowledge that he was a bad guy. Or are you seeing something different?

I'm counting "he was right to overthrow a democratically elected government that had yet to even approach becoming a dictatorship just because it was communist" as a partial WTF, if only because if Allende HAD been doing that i'd be going "fair is fair I guess".

Oh, and all the people who said the stuff he did was worth it because he "saved Chile from communism."

Like really no, not even funny no. Having dogs rape people, is a goddamed hell no.
 
I'm counting "he was right to overthrow a democratically elected government that had yet to even approach becoming a dictatorship just because it was communist" as a partial WTF, if only because if Allende HAD been doing that i'd be going "fair is fair I guess".

So you "count" oh so generously something that is obviously not really supporting him as supporting him. Good to know you are debating in good faith.

Oh, and all the people who said the stuff he did was worth it because he "saved Chile from communism."

Like really no, not even funny no. Having dogs rape people, is a goddamed hell no.

Communism is also a goddamn hell no. Should I start listing communist atrocities around the world? "Rape by dog" is unlikely to enter the first five.
 
Communism is also a goddamn hell no. Should I start listing communist atrocities around the world? "Rape by dog" is unlikely to enter the first five.

I can truthfully state that more people in the century have died of starvation in capitalist countries than communist countries. (because famines are common, go figure) Mind that much of that toll is India but eh.

There is nothing uniquely horrible to the ideology (of Allende, seperate from the SU) that justifies overthrowing a democratic proponent of it by military coup. Else i'd start justifying for Trump and Bolsonaro to be overthrown because some of what they say lines up with reactionary regimes like those of the fascist nations. But I don't consider that to be true, so I don't want them undemocratically overthrown. Let them lose by election. Which is Allende was as much a failure as everyone says should have been the easy and simple course of action.
 
So you admit you'll need to include India, until recently (and in large parts to this day) a 3rd world country, to bolster your count for your argument to work. That's... Not an "eh" kind of thing, that's shooting your argument in the leg. You need to use simultaneously one of the poorest nations (at least historically) AND the second most populous in the world to justify your assertion.

And what would the Indian death count have been like if India was a Communist state?

It's an easy question to answer, since we had cases of a single country (and thus with the same potential) divided into Capitalist and Communist halves before.

So care to wager which one was fed better, FRG or GDR? RoK or PRK?
 
So you admit you'll need to include India, until recently (and in large parts to this day) a 3rd world country, to bolster your count for your argument to work. That's... Not an "eh" kind of thing, that's shooting your argument in the leg. You need to use simultaneously one of the poorest nations (at least historically) AND the second most populous in the world to justify your assertion.

And what would the Indian death count have been like if India was a Communist state?

It's an easy question to answer, since we had cases of a single country (and thus with the same potential) divided into Capitalist and Communist halves before.

So care to wager which one was fed better, FRG or GDR? RoK or PRK?

DPRK Until 1991 (realistically though DPRK kinda lost the plot in the 70's when the tech boom started), at which point it then had an economic collapse and associated famine which caused Kim-Jong-Il to turn it into some sort of weird pseudo-monarchical dictatorship thats also trying to be third positionist and is also not communist anymore except it is when dealing with china?

Suffice to say Korean history is weird.

As to the rest, yes I include india because it lost something on the order of 4 million people a year for much of the twentieth century to avoidable causes. Much like how I include China because my god Mao couldn't run a country to save his life. (If I want other nations with death problems I can use tsarist russia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, Congo, for famine and nations like Spain, Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Columbia, Honduras, Nicargua, the USA, Portugal, Indonesia, South Vietnam, South Korea, Thailand, Malaysia, Pakistan, Iran, Greece.... and so on for deaths simply caused by authoritarian measures in capitalist countries)

But for the communist thing with Allende, the simple problem for comparing him to the Soviets or China is that he was democratically elected and accountable, and appeared to be respecting such. I find communism in general to be to atheistic and vulnerable to excess corruption, but if Allende had managed to complete a successful term in Chile things might have changed for the better. Pinochet did more than overthrow a man he threw a wrench into the idea that democratic communism would work for almost twenty years, because the message sent was "even if you succeed in winning inside the system, the system will just overthrow you anyway".


And funnily enough though, I despise soviet style communism for being undemocratic.
 
but generally, the people who seemingly are most upset with the Pinochet Helicopter Rides meme would be those very same people wearing that Che t-shirt.

Probably because they would likely be getting a ride on those helicopters themselves, in Pinochet-land.
Likewise, the people who love those memes, would likely be sent to a gulag under Communism.

We should be thankful that in the civilized world, this doesn't go further than T-shirts and memes.
 
I can truthfully state that more people in the century have died of starvation in capitalist countries than communist countries. (because famines are common, go figure) Mind that much of that toll is India but eh.

*Looks at post WW2 India*

Excuse me? Capitalist? What? Only in recent years has India adopted more capitalist market solutions.

Between 1947 and 1991, the Indian economy was modeled after the Soviet Union, including 5 year plans, government ownership of industries, and the sheer involvement with the government in the operations of businesses. Nobody can look at the "License Raj" system and say "Oh yeah, that's capitalism!"
 

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