The Proper Solution to Excessive or Unjust Ownership

JagerIV

Well-known member
One of the under discussed problems that helped lead to the Rise of Nazism was the take over of much of the property of Germany by foreigners, especially after the inflation. This helped build the feeling of disenfranchisement and a sense of Germany being a colony of foreign powers. Most hated of course of the people to benefit from the mass transfer of wealth brought along by the inflation were the Jews, who were most recognizable as an other living in Germany, and who's exploitation was easier to see than the native German wealthy. On the gaining of the Inflation:

There were a few, of course, who profited by this
gigantic transfer of property. The larger landowners,
who had not been forced by hunger to sell
during the crash, and the great industrialists and
astuter financial manipulators found themselves
richer than they had been before. The mortgages and
prior charges on their equities had been artificially
eliminated. But the chief gainers were those who
had been able to command foreign currency or credit
during the inflationary period. Theirs had been the
opportunity of buying up the assets of a nation at
“ knock-out ” prices. While others were selling,
frantically and at almost any sacrifice to save themselves
from starvation, they had been purchasers.
Anyone who had a relation or friend abroad capable
of advancing the smallest amount of foreign currency
could enjoy for the easy reaping a golden
harvest he had never sown.

It was the Jews with their international affilia-
tions and their hereditary flair for finance who were
best able to seize such opportunities. Jakob, the
small shopkeeper whose father had emigrated from
eastern Europe a generation before, had only to apply
to cousin Mordecai in Poland or Czechoslovakia to
receive the needful for effecting the transaction of a
lifetime. By purchasing the movable assets of his
neighbours for a song during the universal want of
Inflation and re-selling abroad for foreign currency,
he was able, before the debacle ended, to buy up
enough real property in Germany to make him a rich
man. It was perfectly natural — and from his point
of view perfectly just — that he should do so.

England’s necessity, it used to be said, was Ireland’s
opportunity. Germany’s was that of the Jews.
Many who had hitherto enjoyed so much less than their
fair share of the good things of life found themselves
by legal process of exchange the residuary legatees
of a broken kingdom. They merely did what others
in their place would have done. And since the sun
does not shine often on their race, they made hay as
fast as they could. They did so with such effect that,
even in November 1938, after five years of anti-
Semitic legislation and persecution, they still owned,
according to The Times Correspondent in Berlin,
something like a third of the real property in the
Reich. Most of it came into their hands during the
Inflation.

But to those who had lost their all this bewildering
transfer seemed a monstrous injustice. After prolonged
sufferings they had now been deprived of their
last possessions. They saw them pass into the hands
of strangers, many of whom had not shared their
sacrifices and who cared little or nothing for their
national standards and traditions.

There were not lacking angry and passionate
spokesmen to voice the smarting and unreasoning
feelings of the dispossessed. “ Thousands of old age
pensioners, middle-class people, scientists, war
widows ”, shouted the rising Munich orator, Adolf
Hitler, during that August of galloping Inflation,
“ are selling their last gold values for scraps of paper.
The last national property of the whole people is thus
passing lightly into the hands of the Jews who are
drawing all things to themselves. Millions of existences
which were supported on the thrift of a generation
are being tricked of everything by this swindle.”​

Unfinished Victory, Arthur Bryant, 1940.

Such was often a concern, and one we may see again with the way China buys up property as of now, often on very favorable terms though deals with governments to exploit that government's peoples and steal their birthrights. Or our own situation where many feared/felt that the 2008 crisis resulted in the mass transfer of wealth from the common people to the financial and governmental elite who caused the crisis in the first place, or as we are starting to see now, the impoverishment of the common people with this lockdown.

In these situations, I think it can generally be seen that an injustice has occurred. However, as one may tell by the somewhat mushy title, its an injustice that's difficult to properly describe, and is not really nameable as an injustice at all within standard liberal/capitalistic terms. As said above, a Jew using his access to foreign currency to purchase property off a German is hardly an immoral act. Likewise if a developer purchased a small business property in 2020, that is not an immoral act. Both are normal, regular activities. The injustice of the act comes from the actions of a third party, the government in both cases, the German one for bringing about hyperinflation, or in the 2020 case the US enforcing a lockdown artificially killing off the business and forcing the sale of the property for a song.

Its less problematic if the cause and beneficiary are actually one in the same, rather than one killer and one vulture to feast of a corpse. When the developer and the government for example collude together to drive small businesses out of the way, or someone like China manipulates its currency to be able to buy a great mass of capital at artificially cheap rates, trading fraudulently valued money for real property. But even in these situations, its hard to tell where the line of doing wrong is, or what a just way to redress the injustice actually is.

In Germany, the chosen method to solve an unjust distribution of property rights (if that is what the problem is? So tricky to nail down) was to end property rights, with a majority voting for this solution, and of the anti property right left or right, the right won in Germany and the chosen solution was to kill of the people seen as having unjust ownership of German Property. In many post colonial governments, recognizing the problem of continued foreign ownership of much of the assets of their nations, the solution was communist seizing of the means of production instead, bringing all the property into "the peoples" ownership.

In summary, there is a problem of "unjust" ownership which can cause a great multitude of real problems which I believe history shows needs to be addressed. However, in the liberal framework, its extremely difficult to even really describe what the problem actually is, and it really doesn't seem to have tools within itself to solve it, thus such problems often ending in the ending of liberalism.

Thus, I believe there would be a benefit to being able to address such problems within a liberal framework, both describing the problem and fixing it, or at least, a method that doesn't require going as far out of it as Fascism or Communism to resolve.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
One possibility is outlawing the permanent sale of property. No really.

I've always been impressed with the system of ownership in Leviticus which has such a clause, every 50 years all property reverted to the original birthright owners so it was possible to get ahead by hard work in the form of money, but individuals permanently owning vast chunks of the land* couldn't happen. Every person could reasonably expect to make a go of being a land owner at some point in their lives and you couldn't be put into the poor house for four generations because dad had a gambling problem.

*You could call it the means of production if you wish to use socialist jargon.

The primary issues with said system of ownership transfer is threefold: First you had to, well, religiously track paternity for the purposes of birthrights (girls also inherited incidentally, that's a major part of the book of Ruth). Second, the system presumes there's no large scale increase in population (Going off the censuses we see in the Bible, Israel indeed had a remarkably stable population that had only minor increases and decreases across centuries). This seems to be less of a problem in modern times as birthrates have dropped to where said system could be manageable. Thirdly, it doesn't allow for major construction which wasn't a problem in biblical days since the house was far less valuable than the grazing/vineyard/orchard on the land. Today that's not the case and nobody will build a factory or airport on land that's going to revert to a family in fifteen years.

The Levitical system did exclude homes inside cities above X size (actually defined by being large enough to have city walls), where the building really was the valuable part and construction needed to happen which provides the key to construction issues but inheritance tracking and the system being messed up by population booms isn't as easily solved. Still it's a remarkably elegant way to ensure that both hard work pays off (you get the crops/herds for years after all) but individuals still eventually get their shot at the money-making land. It would need additional checks to account for population spikes though.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
Ah, but where is the line between "colonization" and legitimate business? Thus the slipperyness of the question.

@Bear Ribs . Hm, maybe putting into more "liberal" terminology, some sort of expansion on "inalienable rights". Like, its currently understood that there are certain things you can't legally sell or part with, for example you can't sell yourself into slavery, no matter how much your willing to.

The problem I guess is that your dealing with explicitly group rights, which now tend to be not much coded, and only really noticed when their breached, instead of as something you actually have a right to. Like, the US government selling California to China would be seen as a betrayal of the States duty of care, I suspect for simular reasons the US government letting china just buy up all of California would also be seen as a failure of the Government to its duty of care.

But, a chinese company buying a peice of land in California is not. Is the fact that A chinese buying land in California just weakness on letting the camels nose in the tent, or is there a different thing at play here?

Also, was the Levitican system ever actually followed? For how elegant a solution it might be on paper, if it never actually mattered in practice, its not a particularly useful reference point, expect maybe to think outside the box.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Also, was the Levitican system ever actually followed? For how elegant a solution it might be on paper, if it never actually mattered in practice, its not a particularly useful reference point, expect maybe to think outside the box.
It certainly seemed to be honored in the breach rather more than it was followed but it was followed for quite a few cycles and there are a few references to it happening at various points and a large number of faithful rulers brought about lengthy periods of following the law. For starters Joshua followed said system and lived to 110. Then Othniel brought about a period of 40 years of following the law, followed by Ehud doing so for 80, an unknown number under Shamshel, and 40 more years under Barak. This pattern continued for several centuries, although the bible talks a lot about how bad things were, a closer look tends to reveal multi-decades long periods of peace and prosperity which are only given a couple of sentences before the next crisis is detailed.

The Book of Ruth is basically a love letter to the system working, the first half being Ruth using the system of charity to reap the leavings of Boaz's field so she can feed herself and her mother in law, then the last half discovering that Boaz is a distant relative and the system of family ownership means another field should ultimately go to Naomi and thus Ruth once the field is repurchased, which is the climax of the story. It also shows that said system was often unpopular with the rich, Boaz made sure Ruth gleaned in his fields because other land owners were greedy and would harass her for gleaning the leavings as was her right, and the "so-and-so" treated with great disrespect in the scriptures (evne his name is left out) refused to do his duty to repurchase which allowed Boaz to do it.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
Ah, but where is the line between "colonization" and legitimate business? Thus the slipperyness of the question.
This isn't something that can really be legal or illegal. It is the problem of corperate entities being powerful enough to infringe itno areas where typically governements only can. The only difference between beign able to do what a government does and actually beign a government is litterally peple beliving that you are the government (AKA legitimacy). That is why the only solution is war.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
@Bear Ribs beat me to the punch. I was about to bring that after the conquest of the promised land, the tribes cast lots to determine which lands went to whom, and your land was kept in your family forever. It was illegal to try to acquire the land of other families, to prevent the rich from just acquiring everything and most of the people becoming workers/indentured servants who had no land of their own.

Ofcourse, this only works if it's enforced. King Ahab wanted to buy Naboth's vineyard, but Naboth said no (and had the right to retain his land). Queen Jezebel conspired with community leaders to have Naboth framed and stoned, and then illegally took his land using a foreign custom.

If we implemented this today, what's to stop China or other countries from bribing the government to change the law/create exemptions that just let them buy up our land anyway? Again it only works so long as there are people willing (and able) to stand up and enforce it, which doesn't work because governments have a monopoly on power. We are at the mercy of the government. We don't live in the pre-modern period where kings had to abide by the rules or risk being overthrown by the common people.

Also, this system is incompatible with globalism/mobile labor. Right now we have a system where you sell your house and move hundreds of miles to where your job is, and then a few years later you do it all over again to follow the next job. This won't be as much as a problem with working from home technology, but if you want to be an aerospace engineer, you can't really do your job in Idaho. You HAVE to move to California. If you're landlocked then you either have to trade a plot with someone in California, or you have to pick the jobs that you can do in your area/from home.

Until few decades ago many countries still had laws that mandated citizenship, if you wanted to own a real estate. Of course, with the rise of globalism all these laws were struck down in the name of commerce.

I wonder if we will eventually see a widespread revolt or a collapse when the government and corporations end up owning everything. Or if they will have successfully created a 1984 state where we are all slaves. Well, they're kinda half way there.
 
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Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Ofcourse, this only works if it's enforced. King Ahab wanted to buy Naboth's vineyard, but Naboth said no (and had the right to retain his land). Queen Jezebel conspired with community leaders to have Naboth framed and stoned, and then illegally took his land using a foreign custom.

If we implemented this today, what's to stop China or other countries from bribing the government to change the law/create exemptions that just let them buy up our land anyway? Again it only works so long as there are people willing (and able) to stand up and enforce it, which doesn't work because governments have a monopoly on power. We are at the mercy of the government. We don't live in the pre-modern period where kings had to abide by the rules or risk being overthrown by the common people.
Imma point out this is true of every possibly system or law though. It's not a unique flaw that if rulers break or change the law, the law doesn't work.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
This isn't something that can really be legal or illegal. It is the problem of corperate entities being powerful enough to infringe itno areas where typically governements only can. The only difference between beign able to do what a government does and actually beign a government is litterally peple beliving that you are the government (AKA legitimacy). That is why the only solution is war.

Eh, but war requires just cause, and thus the ability to articulate some principle. If you buy a car, you get drunk and and crash it, then thrash the car salesmen, your an irrational fool who's a danger to society.

If you buy a car, and it breaks within a week and you and punch the salemen in the face for not immediately agreeing to a refund, people will agree you were done dirty, but that your response was disproportionate to the injustice done against you.

If your sold a car with faulty breaks which causes the death of your child, and you then beat the saleman half to death, people will reconize you were done wrong, and most will reconize your actions as proportional to the injustice, regardless of what the law is.

Its not so much what the law is, but recognizing some principle of justice, then secondly hopefully recognizing some way that the injustice can be peacefully solved. Being able to solve problems with something short of genocide would be preferable, especially given the low effectiveness genocide has. After all, no matter how many legitimate grievances one acknowledges the Germans pre WWII might have had, fighting WWII did not deliver a redress of those grievances.
 

Free-Stater 101

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If it were up to me in a perfect world foreign ownership of companies would be capped at a certaint percentage.
 

Firebat

Well-known member
One of the under discussed problems that helped lead to the Rise of Nazism was the take over of much of the property of Germany by foreigners, especially after the inflation.
How much property did foreigners take over, especially after the inflation?
If it were up to me in a perfect world foreign ownership of companies would be capped at a certaint percentage.
So in your ideal world the government would tell people who to trade with and how to operate their businesses? That's socialism.
 

Free-Stater 101

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So in your ideal world the government would tell people who to trade with and how to operate their businesses? That's socialism.
No that's foreign tariffs. Their have been laws for centuries on the nature of foreigners owning another countries property for security reasons or are you stating we should sell the defense industry to the Chinese?
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
So in your ideal world the government would tell people who to trade with and how to operate their businesses? That's socialism.
There's nothing about trade regulation that has the slightest thing to do with socialism. There is no wealth redistribution or social programs involved.

Further all countries have specific limitations on what could be sold to foreign nations. Would you call it socialism if the US decided to prevent a private seller from sending enriched uranium and instructions on manufacturing nuclear weapons to a hostile third-world nation?
 

Abhorsen

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There's nothing about trade regulation that has the slightest thing to do with socialism. There is no wealth redistribution or social programs involved.
No, there is in some sense. It's a lack of control over what one owns. Socialism is one extreme, where one owns nothing, but people should control what they own. And I don't believe in 'excessive ownership' either. It's not a thing, at least in modern times, unless we are talking about the government owning too much. Property rights are vital.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
No, there is in some sense. It's a lack of control over what one owns. Socialism is one extreme, where one owns nothing, but people should control what they own. And I don't believe in 'excessive ownership' either. It's not a thing, at least in modern times, unless we are talking about the government owning too much. Property rights are vital.
"Control over what one owns" is not socialism. Otherwise you run into the bizarre proposition that anti-slavery laws are socialism, drug laws are socialism, all forms of taxation are socialism, licenses are socialism, etc. You're plowing into that strange notion that anything government-adjacent anywhere whatsoever is socialism.
 

Abhorsen

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"Control over what one owns" is not socialism. Otherwise you run into the bizarre proposition that anti-slavery laws are socialism, drug laws are socialism, all forms of taxation are socialism, licenses are socialism, etc. You're plowing into that strange notion that anything government-adjacent anywhere whatsoever is socialism.
First, lack of control over what one owns is pretty close to socialism. People 'own' things in China, but the state can seize them whenever they want, and restrict how people use them, etc.

Also, people own themselves, so slavery wouldn't be included. But yes, the other things are steps on the way to socialism. Socialism vs. capitalism can be thought of as a spectrum between total government control and individual property rights. Now, do I want to be all the way on the capitalism side, fully ancap? No. But that doesn't mean that most of government control is bad, such as occupational licensing, most taxation, the vast majority of the FDA, etc.
 

Free-Stater 101

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No, there is in some sense. It's a lack of control over what one owns. Socialism is one extreme, where one owns nothing, but people should control what they own. And I don't believe in 'excessive ownership' either. It's not a thing, at least in modern times, unless we are talking about the government owning too much. Property rights are vital.
Your comparing apples to oranges because I am not proposing a limit to what 'one owns' but a limit to what a foreign citizen/country 'can own' as in what they have the right to buy in the first place as far as a share of the U.S. economy is concerned.
 
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JagerIV

Well-known member
No, there is in some sense. It's a lack of control over what one owns. Socialism is one extreme, where one owns nothing, but people should control what they own. And I don't believe in 'excessive ownership' either. It's not a thing, at least in modern times, unless we are talking about the government owning too much. Property rights are vital.

Well, if any social obligation or government control is socialism, then every human society and every conceivable human society is socialist, in which case calling something socialist is equivalent to just calling it human, and thus means nothing.

Everyone has limits to what they can own, and what you can do with it. In our system, you own the water that falls on your roof, but your right to take water from the river has limits.

A fathers right to do what he wants with his money is limited by a responsibility to not let their child starve.

I will not cede the idea of social responsibility to the socialists.
 

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