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Alternate History The Medes and the Persians invent the Flintlock Musket

Sailor.X

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In this scenario a year before the fall of the Babylonian Empire. The Medes and the Persians invent the Flintlock Musket. They outfit their entire Army with Flintlocks and use in the invasion of Babylon and other areas of the Levant a few years later they launch their invasion of Greece. How does the invasion of Greece go and how far do the Medes and the Persians push before they reach their limit? Can other Empires of the stand against the New uparmed Mede Persian Empire? How does this change History as we know it?
 
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bintananth

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The Persians were pretty much at their limit when they invaded Greece c.480bc, so I doubt they could have expanded much further even with guns.

When Alexander the Great enters the picture Persia still collapses like a house of cards which got looked at wrong ... only in this TL the Greeks have guns. His empire didn't last long either.

The big question wasn't "Can we conquer them?" That's the easy part.

The hard part is holding onto and integrating what you conquered into your society.
 

Buba

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They expand to more or less the extent of Darius' conquests. The limit is "one year's campaign" distance from the imperial core. Beyond that - some vassals.
After some time the empire collapses.
World history is changed beyond recognition inside a few decades.
 

bintananth

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World history is changed beyond recognition inside a few decades.
The first really big changes would occur in city fortifications, at sea, and in transportation.

If you've got flintlocks then stone city walls with ramparts are obsolete because you can build cannon. You're also going to want those on your ships. The barrel of a 6lb cannon weighs at least 1,000lbs and requires a much sturdier ship than an ancient oared galley to use at sea. That changes transportation because everyting important which needs to be somewhere yesterday just got a whole lot heavier.

A spear weighs about 3lbs. A Brown Bess flintlick weighs about 10.5lbs ... and body armour is now useless because that 1oz musket ball is going straight through body armour like it's not even there at the ranges muskets were used at.
 
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ATP

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They expand to more or less the extent of Darius' conquests. The limit is "one year's campaign" distance from the imperial core. Beyond that - some vassals.
After some time the empire collapses.
World history is changed beyond recognition inside a few decades.
Agree.They would take Greece,and that is all.In OTL they have alliance with Carthage and Etrusk against greeks,they try to take Sicily in OTL/Carthage/
Now,they would succed.
When Rome start unification of Italian penisula,they would face persian allies of Etrusk.
By that time,both sides would have muskets,so what would happen?
 

ATP

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The world - and the battles - would look a lot like Europe ~2,000yrs later: a whole bunch of devastating fighting over minor differences and petty disagreements
Well,romans were pefrectly capable of doing that without muskets.They made desert and called it peace - and were proud of that.
 

bintananth

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Well,romans were pefrectly capable of doing that without muskets.They made desert and called it peace - and were proud of that.
The Romans were quite a bit different in how they went about conquering hostile neighbours while they were expanding ...

They were slow and methodical about it. If there wasn't a paved road between where a Roman Legion was and where it was sent to one would be constructed while the Legion marched.
 

ATP

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The Romans were quite a bit different in how they went about conquering hostile neighbours while they were expanding ...

They were slow and methodical about it. If there wasn't a paved road between where a Roman Legion was and where it was sent to one would be constructed while the Legion marched.
And they would be methodical in this TL,too.Becouse you need engineers no matter if you fight with spears,or muskets.
 

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@Sailor.X ,i forget one important thing - flintlock muskets stopped any calvary army,so it mean no future steppe Empires,like Huns or mongols,even if Rome fall like in OTL.
And no knights in Europe after that.Which mean,no feudalism,too.
Europe as city-states?
 

bintananth

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@Sailor.X ,i forget one important thing - flintlock muskets stopped any calvary army,so it mean no future steppe Empires,like Huns or mongols,even if Rome fall like in OTL.
And no knights in Europe after that.Which mean,no feudalism,too.
Europe as city-states?
It was actually the socket bayonet combined with the infantry square which relegated cavalry to secondary roles.

The former meant that soldiers with firearms could defend themselves from cavalry charges while continuing to fire. The latter meant that there was no exposed flank enemy cavalry could exploit.
 

ATP

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It was actually the socket bayonet combined with the infantry square which relegated cavalry to secondary roles.

The former meant that soldiers with firearms could defend themselves from cavalry charges while continuing to fire. The latter meant that there was no exposed flank enemy cavalry could exploit.
So, @Sailor.X do not aborted feudalism,mongols and Attilla with his scenario?
 

Sailor.X

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@Sailor.X ,i forget one important thing - flintlock muskets stopped any calvary army,so it mean no future steppe Empires,like Huns or mongols,even if Rome fall like in OTL.
And no knights in Europe after that.Which mean,no feudalism,too.
Europe as city-states?
So, @Sailor.X do not aborted feudalism,mongols and Attilla with his scenario?
Warfare on the Eurasian landmass will be more akin to Napoleonic Europe than Feudal Europe by the time of Atilla.
 
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Aldarion

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It was actually the socket bayonet combined with the infantry square which relegated cavalry to secondary roles.

The former meant that soldiers with firearms could defend themselves from cavalry charges while continuing to fire. The latter meant that there was no exposed flank enemy cavalry could exploit.
No, it was a combination of firepower and socket bayonet. Musket with a bayonet is basically a shitty pike... and heavy cavalry had ways of dealing with unsupported pike formations.
 

Agent23

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Mounted archers IIRC were a mainstay of the Persian army.
Flintlock revolvers might be of some benefit to them.
 

bintananth

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Mounted archers IIRC were a mainstay of the Persian army.
Flintlock revolvers might be of some benefit to them.
They weren't. Percussian cap revolvers were. When those came about muskets were becoming rifles. 1853 Enfields and 1861 Springfields had sights accurate to over 5/8 of a mile with "this is going to suck" addressed "to whom it may concern" or "you".
 
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