The Empire of Nicaea does not conquer Constantinople in 1261 but instead focuses on defending its Anatolian territories

[WolfBear]

What if the Empire of Nicaea does not conquer Constantinople in 1261 but instead focuses on defending its Anatolian territories? AFAIK, the Empire of Nicaea already controlled the westernmost richest and most fertile territories of Anatolia, so in theory, there shouldn't have been that much of a need for them to reconquer Constantinople other than symbolic/prestige reasons.

Anyway, what do you think?

For reference:

 

[WolfBear]

You can see this topographic map of present-day Turkey to see what I mean in regards to my point that the territories to the east of the Empire of Nicaea were mostly mountainous and thus much less hospitable for large-scale agriculture:

 

[lordhen]

What if the Empire of Nicaea does not conquer Constantinople in 1261 but instead focuses on defending its Anatolian territories? AFAIK, the Empire of Nicaea already controlled the westernmost richest and most fertile territories of Anatolia, so in theory, there shouldn't have been that much of a need for them to reconquer Constantinople other than symbolic/prestige reasons.

Anyway, what do you think?

For reference:

Could a Nicaea-Latin Empire alliance work.

 

[WolfBear]

Could a Nicaea-Latin Empire alliance work.

That would be interesting. Any way to realistically make this happen, though?

 

[lordhen]

That would be interesting. Any way to realistically make this happen, though?

Wild think i trow here, a marriage maybe.

 

[ATP]

Wild think i trow here, a marriage maybe.

That and help against turks.

 

[stevep]

Could a Nicaea-Latin Empire alliance work.

I can't see it given the differences in culture, religion etc and that both claimed to be the true empire. As heretics to each other they were seen as far more threatening that external threats.

The other issue at this point might be the interaction with the Mongols. They vasselised the assorted Turkish states/tribes in Anatolia but not sure of relations with the Nicaea empire. Possibly if it bit the bullet so to speak and accepted Mongol over-lordship in return for aid in recovering the Latin states and then later on helped the Mongols against other threats and you see them gaining substantially more territory as the Mongols fade? Imperial help in an attempt to invade Egypt and defeat the Mumluks could be interesting.

 

[WolfBear]

I can't see it given the differences in culture, religion etc and that both claimed to be the true empire. As heretics to each other they were seen as far more threatening that external threats.

The other issue at this point might be the interaction with the Mongols. They vasselised the assorted Turkish states/tribes in Anatolia but not sure of relations with the Nicaea empire. Possibly if it bit the bullet so to speak and accepted Mongol over-lordship in return for aid in recovering the Latin states and then later on helped the Mongols against other threats and you see them gaining substantially more territory as the Mongols fade? Imperial help in an attempt to invade Egypt and defeat the Mumluks could be interesting.

Would the Nicaeans actually have confidence that the Mongols will eventually leave if they are given transit through Nicaean territory in order to fight the Latins, though?

A Nicaean-Mongol alliance against the Mamluks does sound fun. IMHO, the Mongols should have sought a decisive confrontation in the Galilee sooner, while they could still sustain a much larger army on the field there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut#Hulagu's_departure_to_Mongolia

 

[ATP]

Would the Nicaeans actually have confidence that the Mongols will eventually leave if they are given transit through Nicaean territory in order to fight the Latins, though?

A Nicaean-Mongol alliance against the Mamluks does sound fun. IMHO, the Mongols should have sought a decisive confrontation in the Galilee sooner, while they could still sustain a much larger army on the field there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut#Hulagu's_departure_to_Mongolia

Mongols about 1300 wanted alliance with France against Mamluks,sadly frogs refused.

 

[WolfBear]

Mongols about 1300 wanted alliance with France against Mamluks,sadly frogs refused.

Why did the French refuse? Due to the Crusader states no longer existing at that point in time?

I wonder if the French would have thought differently about this had at least Acre remained in Crusader hands until then.

 

[Ricardolindo]

What if the Empire of Nicaea does not conquer Constantinople in 1261 but instead focuses on defending its Anatolian territories? AFAIK, the Empire of Nicaea already controlled the westernmost richest and most fertile territories of Anatolia, so in theory, there shouldn't have been that much of a need for them to reconquer Constantinople other than symbolic/prestige reasons.

Anyway, what do you think?

For reference:

LSCatilina has said at alternatehistory.com that he considered Nicaea retaking Constantinople was the point of no return for Byzantine Anatolia as Nicaea diverted its attention to Constantinople, When does Turkish Anatolia become irreversible?.

 

[WolfBear]

LSCatilina has said at alternatehistory.com that he considered Nicaea retaking Constantinople was the point of no return for Byzantine Anatolia as Nicaea diverted its attention to Constantinople, When does Turkish Anatolia become irreversible?.

I thought that Catilina was a female?

And Yes, that does sound reasonable, actually. Might have been more prudent to give up on Constantinople and instead focus on expanding eastwards.

 

[Ricardolindo]

I thought that Catilina was a female?

And Yes, that does sound reasonable, actually. Might have been more prudent to give up on Constantinople and instead focus on expanding eastwards.

He is male, read LSCatilina. Why did you think he was female?

 

[WolfBear]

He is male, read LSCatilina. Why did you think he was female?

Because Catilina sounds an awful lot like Catalina. Apparently I was wrong, though. Interesting.

This is also why I thought that BlondieBC was female.

 

[History Learner]

@Circle of Willis has brought up the neglected PoD of Epirus being the one to retake Constantinople, most likely in the 1230s. With Latin power checked and Epirus likely to be busy managing the Bulgars, Serbs and remaining Latin entities in the Aegean, the Western flank will be secure sufficiently for the Nicaeans to take advantage of the arrival of the Mongols. Post-Battle of Köse Dağ, they can make serious gains against the collapsing Rum Sultanate and/or secure Constantinople cheaply, given it is likely Epirus will be exhausted having to face so many enemies itself.

 

[ATP]

Why did the French refuse? Due to the Crusader states no longer existing at that point in time?

I wonder if the French would have thought differently about this had at least Acre remained in Crusader hands until then.

French King in this time simply do not cared about Holy Land,only how to fight other european rulers.And later fuck templars.
Considering what happened next,we could blame french for wasting last good chance for stopping muslims in Africa.

 

[Ricardolindo]

I thought that Catilina was a female?

And Yes, that does sound reasonable, actually. Might have been more prudent to give up on Constantinople and instead focus on expanding eastwards.

I think that by then, there were too many Turks for Nicaea to expand eastwards. Note a new wave of Turks migrated to Anatolia because of the Mongol invasions.

 

[WolfBear]

I think that by then, there were too many Turks for Nicaea to expand eastwards. Note a new wave of Turks migrated to Anatolia because of the Mongol invasions.

And these Turks could not have become Romanized over time?

 

[History Learner]

And these Turks could not have become Romanized over time?

Roughly 10-15% historically did, at least during the Komnenian Restoration; they were largely Hellenized and adopted Christianity as part of the Roman pushback in Anatolia. To be fair, though, by the 1200s the Turks were much more established politically, religiously and demographically in the Anatolia highlands. The Mongol invasions do offer a possibility though, through the damage inflicted, for the Greeks to make some serious gains again.

 

[WolfBear]

The Mongol invasions do offer a possibility though, through the damage inflicted, for the Greeks to make some serious gains again.

But could the Greeks still experience 1204 while later on making such gains?