The Elder Scrolls - thread: No lollygaggin' here!

JasonSanjo

Your Overlord and Jester
The Aldmeri Dominion's main concerns are to do with mainland Tamriel

While I think the Sload and Maormer had relatively recent defeats or stuff that made it so that even a few centuries or millennia of rebuilding and planning'd be needed for another plan, they could potentially do something to the Dominion

Which is kinda something sorta ironic, the Altmer are themselves from what I can tell, also still rebuilding and recuperating numbers which is why they use Soft Power and spy networks rather than an actual army

Birthrates and Rate of Maturity are problems for them
Agreed. The likely reason for the White-Gold Concordat in the first place (from the Dominion side) was to give them a chance to repopulate and exert soft power over the Empire. It makes perfect sense given how they fared in Hammerfell; they simply lacked the manpower to reinforce and continue the invasion. If ES6 does indeed happen in Hammerfell, it could easily feature a second invasion by the Dominion... which hopefully gets pushed back and perhaps even reversed through the events of the main story.

We are likely to see at least two major DLC, though, given earlier games. I could see something like this:
Base game: Second Aldmeri Dominion invasion of Hammerfell, Hammerfell allies with Skyrim to drive the Thalmor out;
DLC #1: The war is taken to the Summerset Isles, culminating in a final battle at the capital of Alinor against some magically-empowered demi-god-type character;
DLC #2: A plague, previously thought to be under control, starts spreading throughout Hammerfell, either Peryite or Sload responsible, and the player has to track down and eliminate the entity responsible, in the process gaining some sort of great power or "ascending" into another form (a la the Shivering Isles DLC for Oblivion).

There is also a distinct possibility the Psijics will be getting involved at some point; perhaps the Thalmor are ultimately controlled by this or that ancient enemy of the Psijics?
 
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CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Agreed. The likely reason for the White-Gold Concordat in the first place (from the Dominion side) was to give them a chance to repopulate and exert soft power over the Empire. It makes perfect sense given how they fared in Hammerfell; they simply lacked the manpower to reinforce and continue the invasion. If ES6 does indeed happen in Hammerfell, it could easily feature a second invasion by the Dominion... which hopefully gets pushed back and perhaps even reversed through the events of the main story.

We are likely to see ast least two major DLC, though, given earlier games. I could see something like this:
Base game: Second Aldmeri Dominion invasion of Hammerfell, Hammerfell allies with Skyrim to drive the Thalmor out;
DLC #1: The war is taken to the Summerset Isles, culminating in a final battle at the capital of Alinor against some magically-empowered demi-god-type character;
DLC #2: A plague, previously thought to be under control, starts spreading throughout Hammerfell, either Peryite or Sload responsible, and the player has to track down and eliminate the entity responsible, in the process gaining some sort of great power or "ascending" into another form (a la the Shivering Isles DLC for Oblivion).

There is also a distinct possibility the Psijics will be getting involved at some point; perhaps the Thalmor are ultimately controlled by this or that ancient enemy of the Psijics?

I think there will be a timeskip of a few decades or another century or two, even then they would have to be careful

Funny, when it comes to fanfics, there's only the Dragonborn, no new scrolls-related prophecies

That said, you gotta remember, the games are limited by ambition and costs, doubt tech for this new Elder Scrolls game to change by much to allow such ambition
 

JasonSanjo

Your Overlord and Jester
I really hope they don't do a huge time skip. Five or ten years, sure, but not another multi-century skip. They have a good background/over-arching plotline going with the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion, and I would hate for them to simply sideline it by skipping ahead another two hundred years and going "Oh, by the way, the Thalmor were defeated 50 years ago, off-screen. Here's a new, completely unrelated storyline!".

Honestly, I feel like they didn't need the timeskip after Oblivion. Or rather, not as big of one; they could have easily gone with fifty years, for instance, or perhaps even twenty. Heck, if they had done it soon after the eruption of Red Mountain and put a bigger focus on Dunmer refugees in Skyrim in addition to the Dragon Crisis and the Skyrim Civil War I would have loved that additional take on the ongoing conflicts.
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
I really hope they don't do a huge time skip. Five or ten years, sure, but not another multi-century skip. They have a good background/over-arching plotline going with the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion, and I would hate for them to simply sideline it by skipping ahead another two hundred years and going "Oh, by the way, the Thalmor were defeated 50 years ago, off-screen. Here's a new, completely unrelated storyline!".

Honestly, I feel like they didn't need the timeskip after Oblivion. Or rather, not as big of one; they could have easily gone with fifty years, for instance, or perhaps even twenty. Heck, if they had done it soon after the eruption of Red Mountain and put a bigger focus on Dunmer refugees in Skyrim in addition to the Dragon Crisis and the Skyrim Civil War I would have loved that additional take on the ongoing conflicts.

You know, kinda strange how 2 decades is still something notable or important for Elves, even the original Tolkien Elves couldn't exactly afford to wait too long
 

CarlManvers2019

Writers Blocked Douchebag
Well, the rest of the world doesn't just stand still just because you happen to have a long lifespan. The world constantly changes, regardless of whether your lifespan is fifty years or fifty thousand.

Longer lifespan or not, you still need to eat today and tomorrow and not everyone can take breaks that long

May help that Elves take more-or-less the same number of years to physically mature too

So, way less likely a case of a 100 year old teenaged brat thing
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
I will say that Skyrim gets massively improved with mods, especially Requiem (though it is a bitch to install).
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
I will say that Skyrim gets massively improved with mods, especially Requiem (though it is a bitch to install).

My problem with Bethseda games that you need to install like 300+ different mods to make it fun to play and to look good. A few months ago, I played Kingdom Come Deliverance, and got the urge to replay Skyrim again. Spent a whole week reading up on guides on how to install mods, carefully reading compatibilities notes, and making my own compatibility bash patches. It's just so much effort... only for all of your careful planning to not pay off as your game crashes while your are 20 hours into your playthrough and you don't know what's wrong. So I gave up.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
My problem with Bethseda games that you need to install like 300+ different mods to make it fun to play and to look good. A few months ago, I played Kingdom Come Deliverance, and got the urge to replay Skyrim again. Spent a whole week reading up on guides on how to install mods, carefully reading compatibilities notes, and making my own compatibility bash patches. It's just so much effort... only for all of your careful planning to not pay off as your game crashes while your are 20 hours into your playthrough and you don't know what's wrong. So I gave up.
For most games, nexus mod manager handles it. But yeah, a lot of Bethesda games seem to come out half baked because they count on modders to cover flaws.
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
Actor James McAvoy was so addicted to Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion he was reduced to drastic measures to curb his addiction.


Good thing he didn't have a digital copy... Or that he was busy doing X-Men First Class when that next Elder Scrolls game came out.

Me I had something much simpler. Just consoles, I will start playing again when I don't have uni and a pc with 16 gb ram.
I know there are plenty of games that don't need much of that to run smoothly but it's one way for me not getting distracted!
 

TheRejectionist

TheRejectionist
Because nowadays most games of Xbox will come to PC regardless. The Sony titles they come to PC if they don't make that much money (example Days Gone) or are niche somehow or artistic stuff like Horizon Zero Dawn.

Honestly I am not gonna run after the PS5 when in November we might run out of electricity just like what happened to Lebanon. This is not a third world country where I live, We are considered 1st (despite many parts might just be in the conditions of say Morocco).
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
So, one thing that I've run into after watching 21-ish hours of commentary on Morrowind and Oblivion is that there's a key and major writing handicap of the last two TES games: The main quests have far too much urgency from the start and confirm the importance up-front, whereas Morrowind's story doesn't really have urgency since the problem's been going on for decades and you have to very firmly prove yourself the Chosen One in question before the game treats you as such.

For Oblivion, my most immediate thought is having the tutorial "dungeon" separate you from Uriel mid-exposition, such that you catch what the Amulet of Kings does and that a hidden bastard heir exists, but you don't have directions to Martin nor the amulet itself.

Then the main story picks back up with Kavatch, with you looting the Amulet off a Mythic Dawn middle-manager you prevent from killing the last officials of Kavatch and the Dragonfire going out a few quests after that only giving immediacy a large portion through the plot.

If you fish around and save the right important persons, you get the information that the Amulet was abused to make the first free-standing and abrupt Gate, with the available spawn locations prior to the Dragonfire fully extinguishing all being attached to Daedric cults helping from the "inside", as it were.

Skyrim needs a total overhaul of the mechanics for learning Shouts for this to work, though. Throw in Dovahzul books taking up the role of spellbooks to unlock them, with additional per-Shout proficiency from doing or experiencing what the Shout does (e.g. taking or dealing fire damage for Fire Breath), then Dragon Souls act as the "trainer" for this.

After that, give Alduin a schedule for the burial mounds, stealing notes from the original Fallout about having some Bad Things happen if you go long enough without killing Dragons. Mirmulnir takes up Alduin's place in the intro, giving a Dovahzul speech that, when translated, makes it clear he thinks Ulfric is the Dragonborn.

Then the tutorial previews to you what a Thu'um-backed Warrior looks like with proving this is not a farce by having Ulfric scripted to rip through Legionaries on your way out, either path. In this rewrite, you fail the main quest shortly after Alduin hits Windhelm. But if you know how to pick it up later, you turn it into a race against Alduin and Ulfric.

...Overall, I'd love Skyrim to touch on lore about how prophecy works. It happens, but who does it is up in the air. Somebody is going to be "The Last Dragonborn", but if you feel the desperate need to sequence-break just to see what happens you can go ahead and put Miraak of all people in that position, getting a hilariously over-the-top speech for the trouble.

---

And since I'm rambling extra on Skyrim, I'd love for Thu'um to cost Stamina and Magicka instead of being on a timer, so neither Warriors nor Mages can ignore the other's resource, while Thieves have a very touchy cost-benefit analysis about when to use a Shout when being a Stealth Archer.

Another thing I'd like would be redoing Enchantment with a return of Morrowind's numeric soul value and on-use effects, but not item capacity. Instead, the limit is based on the gem used and your skill level, with enchantments staying separate from spells, and the big "selling point" is modifying existing enchantments with some loss offset by the soul used.

The two "points" are streamlining the cast-by-proxy setups with staves just being a valid target for both weapon and on-use enchants, alongside making it so that experimentation with enchantment is easy and cheap as you don't need to get a new item nor a replacement Grand/Black soul.

Ideally, this turns into the ultimate super-enchants being something you build up with a large pile of Grand souls over time, making you interested in getting a good base item early to shovel souls into with diminishing returns. The point is that the uppermost edge is a predictable diminishing return so that a JRPG style degenerate superboss can actually work as intended.

Also add durability that cripples, but does not break, the item in question, with Smithing getting a good chunk of value from added durability just like Oblivion Armorer. Same "diminishing returns from dumping further resources into the item" scheme as above, few sliders to tweak the balancing of what you're forging, bake into the creation process.

For alchemy, more effect value variance in ingredients, and a return of the alchemy set components but as variables to adjust. Rather than removing negative effects, any effects separated end up the other kind of item. Further added would be re-mixing potions and poisons to shuffle effects with some losses, alongside Favoriting formulae to automate the process.

Sounds like a hellish to implement setup. My suggestion would be a three-column matrix of the effects, their magnitudes, and their costs on the item, with each effect referring to what value to apply the cost to. A set number of each kind of "slot" on the item would be easiest to implement as it makes the diminishing returns into predictable matrix multiplication.

...Rant over...
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
So, one thing that I've run into after watching 21-ish hours of commentary on Morrowind and Oblivion is that there's a key and major writing handicap of the last two TES games: The main quests have far too much urgency from the start and confirm the importance up-front, whereas Morrowind's story doesn't really have urgency since the problem's been going on for decades and you have to very firmly prove yourself the Chosen One in question before the game treats you as such.......

Skyrim needs a total overhaul of the mechanics for learning Shouts for this to work, though. Throw in Dovahzul books taking up the role of spellbooks to unlock them, with additional per-Shout proficiency from doing or experiencing what the Shout does (e.g. taking or dealing fire damage for Fire Breath), then Dragon Souls act as the "trainer" for this.

After that, give Alduin a schedule for the burial mounds, stealing notes from the original Fallout about having some Bad Things happen if you go long enough without killing Dragons. Mirmulnir takes up Alduin's place in the intro, giving a Dovahzul speech that, when translated, makes it clear he thinks Ulfric is the Dragonborn.

Then the tutorial previews to you what a Thu'um-backed Warrior looks like with proving this is not a farce by having Ulfric scripted to rip through Legionaries on your way out, either path. In this rewrite, you fail the main quest shortly after Alduin hits Windhelm. But if you know how to pick it up later, you turn it into a race against Alduin and Ulfric.

...Overall, I'd love Skyrim to touch on lore about how prophecy works. It happens, but who does it is up in the air. Somebody is going to be "The Last Dragonborn", but if you feel the desperate need to sequence-break just to see what happens you can go ahead and put Miraak of all people in that position, getting a hilariously over-the-top speech for the trouble.

While I love this concept, I think you need to realize that creating branching plots introduces exponentially growing complexity, and AAA games are hard enough to make as it is.

To give my own little rant....

Recently some studios have been claiming to be working on "AAAA" level games, because its a nice gimmick to call their games "AAAA" level.

I'd actually say that AAAA studios already exist. They are Bethesda Studios and Rockstar Studios, and maybe arguably CDPR.

I think Rockstar is most securely in that position (I think it would be hard to argue that Rockstar does not exist on a level above 90% of the other AAA studios), with Bethesda in most danger of losing the status, and CDPR having only arguably attained the status.

Their games (RDR, GTA , Elder Scrolls, Fallout, The Witcher, 2077) all pretty unquestionably sit on another level beyond other game releases when it comes to scale, even when you compare the older games on this list with modern games.

Now, the thing is, these are really complex games, with budgets over $100,000,000. And adding the sort of story-shifting complexity you're talking about, with branching scenarios depending on character choice that radically effects the game world, could easily lead to tens to hundreds of millions more in cost...

That's why, personally, I'm going to be concerned if Elder Scrolls VI budget isn't about $240,000,000. Considering inflation, that's twice Skyrim's budget. I'm hoping for a considerable improvement in scale, graphics, and in player-driven impact on the world.

A Fallout 4 like base building program (build your own castle, have random bandit or Thalmor raids, allow you to summon multiple daedra and undead summons as defenses....) would be pretty cool.

Personally, given how popular Elder Scrolls is, if they give Elder Scrolls VI basically the same budget as Skyrim, I will be very unhappy.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
I don't really care for the future TES games. I got my good-enough one already, in the form of Morrowind. The other games are nice, but not really worth it in my opinion.

People's favorite TES game really only tells you either (1) how old they are or (2) when they got into TES.

Also, if you're any sort of hardcore gamer, all the (newer) TES games are worth it. You can't play any one of them infinitely (save maybe arguably modded Skyrim, with its nigh infinite mods and apparent multiple re-releases), and all three of them are among the best games ever made.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
People's favorite TES game really only tells you either (1) how old they are or (2) when they got into TES.

Also, if you're any sort of hardcore gamer, all the (newer) TES games are worth it. You can't play any one of them infinitely (save maybe arguably modded Skyrim, with its nigh infinite mods and apparent multiple re-releases), and all three of them are among the best games ever made.
That's true. Still, the later games do feel smaller in content despite all proof otherwise.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
I don't really care for the future TES games. I got my good-enough one already, in the form of Morrowind. The other games are nice, but not really worth it in my opinion.

I like Morrowind and Skyrim equally. Morrowind has the most unique world, the most questing content, and has the most unique factions. Skyrim has a more lively world, combat that doesn't utterly suck, and better presentation of its stories and characters.

I have no hope for the future of this franchise. Elder Scrolls VI 6 probably won't be good and will disappoint. The company that made the beloved Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim games doesn't exist anymore. Also Jeremy Soule is gone, and his music is inseparable from TES' identity. Wish there were other sandbox RPGs to flock to, but the only other one is Kingdom Come Deliverance and we have no word if there is even a sequel in production.

That's true. Still, the later games do feel smaller in content despite all proof otherwise.

Really? I felt that Morrowind wasn't much bigger. It feels "bigger" during the early game when you have to walk everywhere because there are no horses, but then you acquire those blinding speed boots from a sidequest early on, and so the world starts feeling smaller. And the endgame was just using your wizard powers to super jump across the map in seconds. There were also mage's guilds portals to almost everywhere as well. Skyrim was much more mountainous and difficult to traverse, so the journeys did feel longer IMO (if you're not fast travelling everywhere, that is).
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
Wish there were other sandbox RPGs to flock to, but the only other one is Kingdom Come Deliverance and we have no word if there is even a sequel in production.

If you're talking about high-budget first-person fantasy/medieval sandbox RPGs, yes.

But the more modifiers you drop the more you broaden the options, and if you put enough modifiers before a genre any genre will be small.

Avowed, Obsidian's take on Skyrim, is expected to be released late 2022 or early 2023.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
While I love this concept, I think you need to realize that creating branching plots introduces exponentially growing complexity, and AAA games are hard enough to make as it is.
Actually, since the idea is putting various NPCs along the main quest, the quest-giver dialogue would be mostly unchanged with how much is exposition and directions with no reason to change based on who they're given to. The underlying nature of the questline has quite the number of ways to lock in setpiece events that have to be dealt with in a limited variety of ways.

And, of course, what active branching is in place for sequence skips, variations on resolving quests, and triggering fail-safes is readily re-used for NPC-Dragonborn. It's a matter of picking skips, variations, and fail-safes for the NPC, giving them their side of the dialogue in case the player witnesses the conversations, and a few bits recognizing who's doing it.

...Additional thought, Radiant AI being used this way being generalized for Radiant quests, with a courier in the morning carrying a pile of them. So the Companions actually have someone show up with letters giving the information on places to go to kill things, desired proof of completion, and pay at the other end.

They'll actually go out and do the work they get letters for, resulting in a mechanism by which Radiant Quests start and finish completely independently of the player. Mirroring this in the other factions for information on relevant work and/or relevant rewards would further enhance the active use of radiant quests as a main thrust of gameplay.

The "minimum viable product" I'd want for that would be having locations constantly shifting who has what with randomized signs of the current occupant, unless they have a specific side-quest. The "point" of that would be a framework well-built and waiting for the modders to go absolutely wild with making the world live and breath off just basic Creation Kit tools because the basic foundation is already there.

I think that should be Bethesda's design goal. Making systems for procedural worldbuilding and emergent storytelling, but not giving extensive effort to populating these systems or fine-tuning the results if it gets in the way of budget, so that the game is a well-prepared canvas for the modding community that is the real selling point.

Then rip off Chinese Warcraft 3 with the Official Mod Interface having the option to donate to the creator, with mandatory payments being locked behind certain benchmarks, so that the hardcore mod-expansion teams can literally make an actual no-joke expansion to the game and sell it to the wider playerbase while Bethesda gets a cut, satisfying the shareholders.
 

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