Technology The Crypto-Anarchist Manifesto

[Abhorsen]

They do though.

They don't. In the US, tracking of all transactions already exists (credit card companies do this) and they can also reject your transactions (either by not allowing a store to use their card, or declining your card). More, any exchange over $600 is reported automatically to the IRS.

Credit card companies can absolutely stop doing business with gun companies. They could do that tomorrow if they wanted to. They can fork over info about how many 80% receivers you bought online to the Feds without the feds asking.

You are also assuming that more laws won't be made that further restrict you, that the court will not be packed (which Biden is openly calling for), that the lawfare waged on you won't cost you everything, etc. Or just have monero, gold, or physical cash, and be immune to that.

 

[Vyor]

and they can also reject your transactions (either by not allowing a store to use their card, or declining your card)

They aren't legally allowed to do this arbitrarily.

Credit card companies can absolutely stop doing business with gun companies.

Not legally.

Or just have monero, gold, or physical cash, and be immune to that.

And then the government buys most of it and... you're back to step one.

 

[Abhorsen]

They aren't legally allowed to do this arbitrarily.

They absolutely can. They used to do it all the time when you bought stuff out of state/out of country to stop credit card theft, and you had to call them to tell that the purchase was valid. They can decline your card because you've spent too much. The only rules about companies declining your card is the contract, I'm pretty sure. Oh, they can't be racist, sexist, ablist, etc, about it (Civil Rights Act), but they could hit you for just disagreeing with who you are as a person.

Check your actual contractual agreement with your credit card company. It has some way for them to terminate the agreement if they want to.

Not legally.

Yes legally. They already did this when the FDIC pressured banks to close relationships with Payday lenders citing "reputational risk".

Companies can discontinue relationships with other companies for nearly any reason that doesn't violate civil rights laws, as long as it's according to contract.

And then the government buys most of it and... you're back to step one.

First, the government can't just buy all the crypto, unless all of the anonymous users actually want to sell it. Even when the government tried to buy all the gold in the US, they missed a bunch of it. Second, even if the government had 50% of the crypto and kept it out of circulation, the rest would just spike in value. In addition, people would migrate to another crypto by selling the Crypto the government is buying and purchasing the crypto that is resistant.

If you really want a risk: the government just can print arbitrary amounts of money if it wants. For example, the trillion dollar coin. It can print your money to nothing. You can't do that with crypto.

 

[Vyor]

They absolutely can. They used to do it all the time when you bought stuff out of state/out of country to stop credit card theft, and you had to call them to tell that the purchase was valid. They can decline your card because you've spent too much. The only rules about companies declining your card is the contract, I'm pretty sure. Oh, they can't be racist, sexist, ablist, etc, about it (Civil Rights Act), but they could hit you for just disagreeing with who you are as a person.

They can't do that in Washington DC, California, or Florida. Because there are laws against it.

First, the government can't just buy all the crypto, unless all of the anonymous users actually want to sell it. Even when the government tried to buy all the gold in the US, they missed a bunch of it. Second, even if the government had 50% of the crypto and kept it out of circulation, the rest would just spike in value. In addition, people would migrate to another crypto by selling the Crypto the government is buying and purchasing the crypto that is resistant.

Oh, everyone will just magically agree to swap to a specific ponzi scheme crypto coin?

 

[Abhorsen]

They can't do that in Washington DC, California, or Florida. Because there are laws against it.

All you need is those laws to be revoked, which they can be whenever, or for the company to use a pretext that you can't disprove. At best, you are still out tens of thousands in legal fees. Or you don't live under those jurisdictions, at which point you are screwed. Seriously, this idea that you can trust digital fiat is without any evidence at all.

Oh, everyone will just magically agree to swap to a specific ponzi scheme crypto coin?

No. They'll go to a mixture of them (like they are now), and if one has problems (like the gov buying all of it), people will migrate to another that is more useful. For example, bitcoin itself is being migrated away from as a medium of exchange. More people are transacting in coin like Monero instead. Evidence: I was recently at a libertarian festival, and goldbacks and monero were the most popular alternate currencies, both more popular than bitcoin.

In short, not all of the eggs are in one basket, and it isn't too expensive to switch baskets. I'm not advocating one specific crypto to rule them all. I'm noting that the ability to swap between them makes them robust against government or corporate control.

Ultimately, the reason that crypto has value is the same reason fiat has value: people believe it has value. It's the same reason the US government has power: people believe it does.

 

[Zachowon]

The issue with crypto is that it is tied too electricity.
And sure generators exist but...they can't last forever, and I get it, sat connection....isn't perfect. Bad weather and your fucked.

Welcome to how modern devices work, learn the Electromagnetic spectrum.

 

[Vyor]

All you need is those laws to be revoked, which they can be whenever, or for the company to use a pretext that you can't disprove. At best, you are still out tens of thousands in legal fees. Or you don't live under those jurisdictions, at which point you are screwed. Seriously, this idea that you can trust digital fiat is without any evidence at all.


No. They'll go to a mixture of them (like they are now), and if one has problems (like the gov buying all of it), people will migrate to another that is more useful. For example, bitcoin itself is being migrated away from as a medium of exchange. More people are transacting in coin like Monero instead. Evidence: I was recently at a libertarian festival, and goldbacks and monero were the most popular alternate currencies, both more popular than bitcoin.

In short, not all of the eggs are in one basket, and it isn't too expensive to switch baskets. I'm not advocating one specific crypto to rule them all. I'm noting that the ability to swap between them makes them robust against government or corporate control.

Ultimately, the reason that crypto has value is the same reason fiat has value: people believe it has value. It's the same reason the US government has power: people believe it does.

Crypto is one bad solar storm away from not existing anymore for the vast majority of people.

 

[Abhorsen]

The issue with crypto is that it is tied too electricity.
And sure generators exist but...they can't last forever, and I get it, sat connection....isn't perfect. Bad weather and your fucked.

Welcome to how modern devices work, learn the Electromagnetic spectrum.

You don't need generators to last forever, just long enough to restore power. And bad weather doesn't fuck you, there are a ton of ways to get an internet connection. You'd need all of them down to be screwed, and even then, you can set up a small sidechain network between local people using bluetooth, etc, then update main blockchain later.

Crypto is one bad solar storm away from not existing anymore for the vast majority of people.

I already pointed out how you can deal with blackouts, which is what a solar storm does. Meanwhile, crypto is far more robust vs that than your credit cards, which rely on a central service to report if they are valid or not. Crypto's decentralized nature makes it robust to that.

 

[Zachowon]

You don't need generators to last forever, just long enough to restore power. And bad weather doesn't fuck you, there are a ton of ways to get an internet connection. You'd need all of them down to be screwed, and even then, you can set up a small sidechain network between local people using bluetooth, etc, then update main blockchain later.


I already pointed out how you can deal with blackouts, which is what a solar storm does. Meanwhile, crypto is far more robust vs that than your credit cards, which rely on a central service to report if they are valid or not. Crypto's decentralized nature makes it robust to that.

You do know Bluetooth is fucking horrible for reliable data transfer right?
Add in it is the least protected method of transferring data

 

[Abhorsen]

You do know Bluetooth is fucking horrible for reliable data transfer right?
Add in it is the least protected method of transferring data

Only you aren't transferring tons of data? Crypto uses very little bandwidth over the internet. And the way to protect data thru bluetooth is to encrypt it beforehand.

The actual block itself logging that and a lot of other transactions, is 1MB on Bitcoin. More, the request and confirmation for the purchase is even smaller.

 

[Zachowon]

Only you aren't transferring tons of data? Crypto uses very little bandwidth over the internet. And the way to protect data thru bluetooth is to encrypt it beforehand.

The actual block itself logging that and a lot of other transactions, is 1MB on Bitcoin. More, the request and confirmation for the purchase is even smaller.

It is still an unencrypted method and would basically leave it completely vulnerable.
Needs to be in a short distance, and relies heavily upon many factors.
Add in you need power, and so many other methods.
When cash is just easier, and doesn't leave a giant fucking heat spot on a map for any one to target you...

 

[Abhorsen]

It is still an unencrypted method and would basically leave it completely vulnerable.
Needs to be in a short distance, and relies heavily upon many factors.
Add in you need power, and so many other methods.
When cash is just easier, and doesn't leave a giant fucking heat spot on a map for any one to target you...

It isn't unencrypted. That's the first issue here. You can in fact encrypt bluetooth, the same way you encrypt snail mail. Encrypt the message you send before handing it to bluetooth or put it in the letter.

Second, obviously it's for a short distance. I pointed out that such a network could be used as a stop gap, for a point of sale type transaction.

Cash has some advantages, but it has a massive disadvantage: the fed printing more money which makes the stored cash worth less or even worthless. If you stored $10k in your house in January of 2020, you lost about $1800 by now.

The other issue is that you can't buy things online with cash, you need to use digital something, and credit cards are tracked.

 

[Vyor]

I already pointed out how you can deal with blackouts, which is what a solar storm does. Meanwhile, crypto is far more robust vs that than your credit cards, which rely on a central service to report if they are valid or not. Crypto's decentralized nature makes it robust to that.

Well, no, the risk is that the power surge nukes the DNS servers.

 

[Abhorsen]

Well, no, the risk is that the power surge nukes the DNS servers.

You don't need DNS to use the internet. It's useful, not needed. You can directly use IP addresses.

Also, there are backups for DNS servers.

 

[Vyor]

You can directly use IP addresses.

Without searching for it, what's the IP address for the nearest bitcoin miner?

 

[Abhorsen]

Without searching for it, what's the IP address for the nearest bitcoin miner?

See, that's the neat thing. I don't need to know that. The program on my phone needs to know that.

More, there's a bunch of different DNS servers. Again, you are assuming that all of a globally decentralized system will be wiped out. This is very unlikely.

If worldwide all computers got wiped out though (vanishingly unlikely), guns are the most important currency, and dollars are worthless, as the government that established them is also gone. More, your money in you bank account that you use a credit card for is also just straight up gone.

 

[Vyor]

See, that's the neat thing. I don't need to know that. The program on my phone needs to know that.

More, there's a bunch of different DNS servers. Again, you are assuming that all of a globally decentralized system will be wiped out. This is very unlikely.

If worldwide all computers got wiped out though (vanishingly unlikely), guns are the most important currency, and dollars are worthless, as the government that established them is also gone. More, your money in you bank account that you use a credit card for is also just straight up gone.

And the program on your phone gets it from... where? Using a DNS lookup to find the lookup table housed in a third party website?

Does the name "FTX" ring any bells?

 

[Abhorsen]

And the program on your phone gets it from... where? Using a DNS lookup to find the lookup table housed in a third party website?

Does the name "FTX" ring any bells?

The nice thing about crypto is that even if you send your request for a transaction to the wrong party, there's not much they can do with that other than maybe publish that to the blockchain using a different miner. The amount, who it goes to, and who it's from, etc, is all cryptographically signed and unchangeable. In fact, the request for a transaction doesn't even go to a miner. It goes to what is called a mempool, out of which any miner can grab any transactions and use them to create the next block (after doing the proof of work). Then a confirmation is sent to the transacters when the transaction is listed on the chain.

The useful feature of this is that it doesn't matter who sees this transaction. In fact, everyone can see it for bitcoin, while Monero anonymizes the information using zero knowledge proofs. But in short, it's not like a credit card number, where if they grab that, they can issue more payments. It's not useful data other than


Also, you are missing what the issue was with FTX if you think that applies at all here. You need to understand what FTX claimed to be (a coin holder that held "your" crypto for you) and what it didn't claim to be (a wallet). The crypto issue with FTX was people trusting others to hold their coins, instead of having a wallet themselves. Then this was compounded by a variety of other issues, but that was the obvious crypto specific one. Without that issue, which was a people problem not a tech one, FTX wouldn't have been able to steal crypto from users. Now there was also the shitcoin they issued, but that's also a people issue, not a tech issue.

 

[LordsFire]

Also, you are missing what the issue was with FTX if you think that applies at all here. You need to understand what FTX claimed to be (a coin holder that held "your" crypto for you) and what it didn't claim to be (a wallet). The crypto issue with FTX was people trusting others to hold their coins, instead of having a wallet themselves. Then this was compounded by a variety of other issues, but that was the obvious crypto specific one. Without that issue, which was a people problem not a tech one, FTX wouldn't have been able to steal crypto from users. Now there was also the shitcoin they issued, but that's also a people issue, not a tech issue.

The fascinating thing here is that you seem to think this is an argument in favor of crypto, not against it, or at best that it's no better than other currencies.

The root problem with all of the things about crypto is a 'people problem,' just like the issue with every other kind of currency.

People do evil things, using any tool they think they can get away with. Currency and currency manipulation are tools, and while bitcoin and other cryptos have different specific vulnerabilities than physical and government-issued currencies, those vulnerabilities exist nonetheless, because people.

In theory, because the primary role of currency is as a store of value that saves time and labor when purchasing goods and services, fiat currency should work just fine. Having a stable currency is far preferable to not having one, so it's in everybody's interests not to mess it up.

In practice, certain people have found ways to tremendously advantage themselves at the cost of others by manipulating currency, and have repeatedly done so throughout history, including before fiat currency became predominant.

Cryptocurrencies are not only no different in this regard, but ways of horrifically abusing them have already visibly played out, and a lot of unpleasant secondary effects have come from all this as well, such as the brutal price-distortions and scamming on the graphics-card market.

 

[Abhorsen]

The fascinating thing here is that you seem to think this is an argument in favor of crypto, not against it, or at best that it's no better than other currencies.

The root problem with all of the things about crypto is a 'people problem,' just like the issue with every other kind of currency.

People do evil things, using any tool they think they can get away with. Currency and currency manipulation are tools, and while bitcoin and other cryptos have different specific vulnerabilities than physical and government-issued currencies, those vulnerabilities exist nonetheless, because people.

In theory, because the primary role of currency is as a store of value that saves time and labor when purchasing goods and services, fiat currency should work just fine. Having a stable currency is far preferable to not having one, so it's in everybody's interests not to mess it up.

In practice, certain people have found ways to tremendously advantage themselves at the cost of others by manipulating currency, and have repeatedly done so throughout history, including before fiat currency became predominant.

Cryptocurrencies are not only no different in this regard, but ways of horrifically abusing them have already visibly played out, and a lot of unpleasant secondary effects have come from all this as well, such as the brutal price-distortions and scamming on the graphics-card market.

The issues you raise about people manipulating others aren't something special to crypto is my point. People have run pump and dumps for every kind of good, from stocks to securities to crypto to commodities. That's what I mean by people issues: those aren't new, and not unique to crypto. FTX was just crypto branding on something that had existed forever: a Ponzi Scheme. Madoff did the same with a mutual fund, but we don't hate mutual funds because of Madoff. If Madoff had branded his investments as investments in a goldmine that didn't exist, we wouldn't suddenly blame gold either.

The difference between crypto and previous money is that crypto is inherently harder to manipulate. This is because of the transparency and mathematics of the protocol. Fiat, meanwhile, and as you note currencies before that, were vulnerable to central controllers manipulating them. Established, decentralized cryptos are basically immune to these problems. No one is controlling how much bitcoin there is, unlike the dollar which is controlled by the Fed. That's the difference.