The Cardassian Empire vs the UNSC

[Spartan303]

@Shipmaster Sane I simply never got that impression. They actively forced the Federation to cede worlds and even as dissolute as the Federation is, that makes little sense that they had that capability otherwise. The other powers on their level, the Gorn, Tholians and so on, occupy sections of the Galactic Disc which clearly would represent hundreds of systems--and so do the Cardassians in semi-official literature, anyway, which makes sense with the stalemate they've put the Federation into.

On the subject of the thread at hand, I tend to credit the UNSC with technology at least on par with the Alpha Quadrant in terms of raw force, if not greater; the issue is one of sophistication in basically "esoteric effects" (since they're perfectly sophisticated in computational intelligences.)

No. The Cardassians were never a true threat to the Federation. Older model Federation ships in small numbers were holding them off, but for the Cardassians it was a major campaign that nearly broke the back of the Cardassian Military. Had the Federation held out a little longer the Cardassians would have accepted a peace without the loss of the Colonies.

Remember the PAPAL claims? A lot of that stems from what the Federation did here. The Federation deliberately redrew the border with Cardassia rather than force them to accept the original border as it was in place. In short, the Federation Council deliberately fucked its people over in order to get a quick peace deal.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Speaking about what's most interesting to me.. I'd just always assumed Cardassia had hundreds of colonies, being one of the major powers of the Alpha/Beta quadrant axis. I'm surprised to see such vastly lower numbers. Especially with how long the Klingon and then allied offensives into Cardassia (in both wars) actually took.

No, the Cardassians were always supposed to be a second or third tier power. That said, my estimation does come from the DWS. That said, WOG from the head writer of DS9 agreed that ~10,000 ships were a reasonable number for the Federation fleet. The Breen, Cardassian, and Dominion fleet towards the end of the war was ~30,000 to the Klingon Fleet of 1,500.

Going over the DWS and the show:

• Dominion Assets
  • Space Force -- Invaded with ~15,000 ships (6,000 capital ships, 9,000 fighters or 40% capital ships or 60% fighters). Due to extensive building while within the Alpha Quadrant, the fleet was roughly at 18,000 at almost any given time during the war. Using the same percentage, that puts them at 7,200 capital ships and 10,800 fighters.
  • Army -- Committed at least 452,709 troops were part of the invasion force and the Dominion intended to use millions of occupation troops to hold the Federation once it was conquered.
    • Special Forces -- Explicitely stated to have none; all Jem'hadar are expected to be any match for any special forces soldier. The Dominion believes that 1 Jem'hadar soldier equates to 4 average enemy troops.
• Cardassian Assets
  • Space Force -- Indicated to have around ~8,000 ships (personal estimation between the DWS's order sizes, the number of orders ( several dozen), and the impression that the Breen were a smaller, albeit sophisticated power.
  • Ground Forces -- ~4 million troops as stated by the DWS.
• Breen Assets
  • Space Force -- Committed ~4,000 ships (estimation based on the remaining size available for the ~30,000 ship indicated in the show and the implication of being a smaller power).
  • Ground Forces -- Unknown, the Breen did not contribute many ground forces.
• United Federation of Planets Assets
  • Space Force -- Stated to have 8,800 ships (70% or 6,160 of which were capital ships and the remaining 30% or 2,640 being Federation Attack Fighters), keep in mind these are combat capable ships, not hospital ships and so forth. The Federation has thousands of support craft from shuttles to runabouts, and other support craft).
  • Ground Forces -- ~250,000 troops, with 50,000 being recruited as the war began to take on a large ground aspect.
    • Special Forces -- In addition to the 250,000 troops, Starfleet has several units of special forces. Such as the Starfleet Rangers, Starfleet Commandos, the 3rd Andorian Battalion, and the UFP's Rapid Response Forces. We have very little numbers on the size of these groups, but going on the Andorian Battalion, they probably reach up to about 2,000 men. That's probably at least an additional 8,000 in terms of men.
• Klingon Empire Assets
  • Space Force -- Committed ~6,500 ships, out of what I expect to be approximately 9,750.
  • Ground Forces -- ~2.5 to 3.5 million; estimated based on the Cardassians having the most soldiers in the war and the fact that the Klingons suffered 200,000 in troop losses and even towards of the end of the war, dedicated 15 division (10,000 Klingon troops per division) to mopping up one of the Cardassian Order's ground forces.
• Romulan Star Empire
  • Space Force -- Committed ~7,000 ships split between 25 fleets, composed of Command Fleets loyal to the Praetor and the rest were mainly senetorial or coalition fleets. Other Command Fleets remained within Romulan space to support the Praetor and to defend Romulan space. The Romulans probably had closer to the Klingon 9,750 ships approximately, given their rivalry. It is worth noting that the Romulans committed more ships, so it's possible that if they left approximately 1/3rd in reserve, they'd have about 10,500 ships.
  • Ground Forces -- Committed ~190,000 troops to the war, out of a supposed 500,000.
    • Special Forces -- The Imperial Marines, the Imperial Shrikes, and the Ventava Legion. The Ventava Legion is composed of the top 2,000 troops in the entire Empire. Suggesting the others are at least as large, for another 6,000 troops.
• Alpha-Beta Quadrant Alliance
  • Space Forces: 19,660 capital ships
    • +2,640 fighters
  • Ground Forces: 2,940,000 troops
    • +14,000 Special Forces
• Dominion War Alliance
  • Space Forces: ~19,200 capital ships
    • +10,800 fighters
  • Ground Forces: ~ 4,452,709 troops

Higher than my initial guesses, but it should be noted that the Cardassians will only be able to commit about 2/3rds of their military and even that will probably only be in action 50% of the time. So about 5,332 ships will be dedicated to the invasion of the UNSC and maybe about 2,666 of those ships will be on the front lines at any time. The exception would be during a surge of forces to take certain strategic goals.

Indeed, it makes no sense for them to be that small, and doesn't really fit the "broader circumstances".

If they had dozens rather then hundreds of colonies they would be a minor power, something like Gorn or Tzenkethi, not even in shouting distance of Gul Dukat's dream of having Cardassia rise in power enough to turn the Big 3 (Feds, Klingons, Romulans) into Big 4.

Keep in mind that the Cardassians are heavily militarized as a people. They came to the war with the most troops of any other power. So having a lot of resources poured into the military that is higher than even the Klingons is not unusual. The Klingon Empire for example, was in relative peace time and the Cardassians were still trying to expand.

This keeping in mind that as of TOS Humans alone had 1000+ colonies (as per Kirk to Cochrane, when talking how mankind was doing in Cochrane's absence, Humans were "on a thousand worlds and spreading").

And yes, if they only had a few dozen systems, the Klingon empire would have steamrolled them with little effort.

It's not that simple.

First, you have to realize that the Klingon's border is roughly 47 LY from the Cardassian border. While the Vorcha can cross that in 11.75 days,the BoPs need 16.45 days. And that's working from the border of their two territories. Klingon space was vast and you'd need a supply chain that stretches back to probably closer to 80 or 100 LY. At least. And that would mean your fleet would need at last 35 days to assemble.

And that doesn't include troop rotation. Assuming 6 months on and 1 month of shore leave, the Klingons would see 6 months on and ~2 months off.

And that doesn't take into account Cardassian planetary defenses, greater Cardassian ship numbers (as the Cardassians would have ~8,000 to the Klingons 3,250 ships (as it was stated that they had dedicated a full third of their military might to the invasion). Ignoring the initial surge, the Klingons would at any time be sending 1,625 combat capable capital ships against ~4,000 Cardassian ships.

And the Klingons were still winning, I might add.

Minor sidenote, the Attrexians featured in Elite Force II game are stated to have 64 systems (IIRC - you can wander the ship between missions, and in doing so access ship's databanks, there are entries on all plot-involved species) to their name, and are a minor power at best.

All in all, I think it's best to assume Cardassia had low dozens of named systems rather then in total...

Um, the Cardassians have 30-50 inhabited worlds, not 30-50 systems. They in reality, probably have hundreds of systems and countless thousands of planets. The issue is one of habitation. Russia is the world's largest country by sheer territory, but it's population is a mere 144.5 million, compared to the USA, which occupies a far smaller geography and sports ~300 million people. The Cardassians occupy a great deal of territory that is either untapped or they are not able to tap or in which there is nothing to tap.

(We also have Breen, who while not among the heavyweights of the Alpha / Beta Quadrant, are clearly advanced and powerfull enough not to be rolled up by the Big 3 despite Romulans for example being hating their guts, yet not a Great Power.)

The Breen is composed of multiple internal states and would look similar to Germany back before it unified into the German state. Only in times of war do they (theoretically) unite as one functioning political entity. And even then, the Breen were never portrayed as a power that you could just roll up on. Because if that were possible, the Cardassians would have already have done it.

Please keep in mind that just because a country is technically able to overpower another, does not mean that is wise--especially when there are competitors who would be happy to take advantage of said weakened country.

@Shipmaster Sane I simply never got that impression. They actively forced the Federation to cede worlds and even as dissolute as the Federation is, that makes little sense that they had that capability otherwise. The other powers on their level, the Gorn, Tholians and so on, occupy sections of the Galactic Disc which clearly would represent hundreds of systems--and so do the Cardassians in semi-official literature, anyway, which makes sense with the stalemate they've put the Federation into.

I disagree.

The UFP has 183 member worlds and approximately 7,128 affiliate worlds (from those just within reach of full membership to colony worlds). And yet the vast majority of the UFP's space force, Starfleet, is composed of ~70% humans. Let's look back at history. In the 22nd century, the major players around Earth were Vulcan, Andoria, Tellarite, and Qo'Nos. Earth was a rising newcomer and Romulus was an awakening major power all on its own.

After the Romulan-Earth War, it's clear that Earth stepped forward as a leader among the Vulcans, Andorians, and the Tellarites. It's obvious to me that three traditional major powers and the emerging major power of Earth merged into a super power by the 23rd century. And it's clear that Earth is the central nexus of these four powers, with Vulcan and Andoria in second and third respectfully. And most people seem to forget about Tellarite entirely.

Look at the military composition of the major powers.

• The UFP -- Composed about 70-80% of Humans, followed by Vulcans and then other minor races. More importantly, after the creation of the Federation, a new military organization wasn't created; rather it was folded into Starfleet. We're also generally told that Starfleet is composed of 150 different species...but the most official map of UFP space indicates that there are 183 member worlds, leaving another 33 unaccounted for worlds. My theory is that humans hold 29 of those other worlds, with the other 4 belonging to the other major races. Having humans with a 30 worlds isn't a complete lock on the government, but add in the other major founding members and the other 4 worlds. That's 20% of the control of the Federation Council. My guess is the humans through their social connections, control a strong lock on the Federation Council and near full control of the military.
• The Klingons -- Control all the governments of their various subject worlds and they control the full military.
• Cardassians -- Same. No representation or anything.
• Romulans -- Supermajority are Romulans, but we know that other races share a degree of power within the Empire as well. For the empire, a citizen is more about embracing Romulan ideology and not so much about racial purity. Still, the Romulans seem to have a near 100% lock on the military.

It plays the same everywhere; despite these being multi-racial entities, the majority of the military is generally controlled by one race. It's not so much the power and resources of thousands of worlds--but rather the resources of a handful. The UFP's military might is primarily human-focused and probably limited to a handful of shipyards that is more or less locked in by Earth. The Klingons are fully in charge of their own military, which is divided between the KDF and the Houses (ie, the nobility). The Cardassian Union is a facist dictatorship with the Cardassians on top. The Romulans too control the majority of the military power. And indeed, it's implied that without Romulus, the Star Empire more or less collapsed. In fact, every ST major power is primarily an empire of some form or another. The Dominion, larger than any of the local powers, is controlled entirely by the Founders and their military might. As were ancient empires of the past.

That sounds odd, but consider that this is natural. The United States is primarily controlled by Yankeedom or the Deep South and the coalitions they form. That in turn makes up the United States, which in the current world order, provides the bulk of military protection for the rest of the planet. That's 7.8 billion being reliant upon .3 billion. 3.84% of the world's population is so powerful that it managed to draw in the other 97.26% under its aegis.

Following this example, it is not without reason that despite the greater territories held by one entity or another, that a full war between the Klingons and the UFP would be closer to a handful of Earth worlds in war against a handful of Klingon worlds. Even taking advantage of the industrial output of other worlds is not necessarily advantageous, as empires of that scale are probably not effectively run or optimized for that sort of integration. In the case of say, the Romulan and Klingon empires, a few Romulan subjects suddenly falling under the power of the Klingons may or may not be worse or better off.

On the subject of the thread at hand, I tend to credit the UNSC with technology at least on par with the Alpha Quadrant in terms of raw force, if not greater; the issue is one of sophistication in basically "esoteric effects" (since they're perfectly sophisticated in computational intelligences.)

That is laughably untrue. The UNSC's technology base is not even on par with the 22nd Starfleet. Starfleet of that era was experimenting with transporters on limited ships, had begun to shift from lasers to particle weapons, more sophisticated sensor technology, vastly superior genetic manipulation technology, greater material science, was shifting from nuclear weapons to anti-matter weapons, and had greater anti-gravity tech. The only advantage the UNSC has over the 22nd Starfleet is its sheer size, General AI, FTL velocity (in theory, not necessarily in practice), and limited force field technology in their power armor program.

 

[The Original Sixth]

No. The Cardassians were never a true threat to the Federation. Older model Federation ships in small numbers were holding them off, but for the Cardassians it was a major campaign that nearly broke the back of the Cardassian Military. Had the Federation held out a little longer the Cardassians would have accepted a peace without the loss of the Colonies.

Remember the PAPAL claims? A lot of that stems from what the Federation did here. The Federation deliberately redrew the border with Cardassia rather than force them to accept the original border as it was in place. In short, the Federation Council deliberately fucked its people over in order to get a quick peace deal.

The UFP settled with the Cardassians for reasons that really had nothing to do with the Cardassians.

Similar to how the United States basically ignored China between 2001 and 2015 because those two administrations were focused almost entirely upon the Middle East, the UFP at the time was focused almost entirely upon an impeding Borg invasion. Since the territorial claim along the DMZ involved only about a dozen or so planets--compare to say, the over 7,000 worlds of the Federation, it made more sense to placate the Cardassian Union by conceding a dozen planets to save the other 7,311 worlds.

There was a reason the Federation Council basically laughed the Maquis worlds out of their chambers.

And the UFP also gained an advantage that was not exactly spoken plainly in the show; the Cardassian also gave up Bajor and her conquered colonies. And the UFP literally moved in the next day to "offer support" and later that changed to "Hey, want to be World Member #184?". As far as strategic mistakes go, the UFP didn't get the short stick; it took the long view.

Assuming the UFP survived the Borg threat, the Cardassians would spend decades pouring in money and resources into developing their new colonies and suppressing rebellious activity (rebellious activity that the UFP could support with just a bit of intel and material support), on a front that is 40 LY away from their core territory. And in return for that, the Cardassians stupidly gave up Bajor*--a planet full of billions of angry Bajorans to what is essentially Federation occupation (even if it's willing) that is...~5 LY away from Cardasia Prime.

The UFP not only didn't lose more than a few handful of worlds to the Cardassians, but also in exchange, gained a foothold 5 LY away from their homeworld, where as the previous UFP border was 30 LY. In one masterstroke, the UFP diverted Cardassian attention to a border far away and obtained a foothold in a territory that almost entirely eliminated Cardassian strategic depth.

The Cardassians won in the short term, but they lost in the long term. Dukat realized that and later the Cardassian big heads seemed to get the idea too, because they supported several small Bajoran attempts to oust the Federation from Bajoran space.


*And not just Bajor. The Bajorans had colonies before the Cardassians invaded. The Bajorans were a small local power, albeit one that wasn't too heavily armed. When the Cardassians left, they not only lost Bajor, but control over their colonies. Colonies such as Valo, which bordered the DMZ and were Bajoran colonies. Or Free Haven and Dreon were north of the Bad Lands, between the Breen and the Cardassians. And Prophet's landing, which is 4 LY from Cardassia. Regulon was a world ~15 LY from Cardassia and likely was within its sphere of influence back when they held Bajor. In short, we're talking about a border that was at least around 10-15 LY in strategic depth being brought down to ~4-5LY and offered possible penetration into the heart of Cardassian territory from at least three different systems within the same sector.

In total, with the folding in of Bajor into the UFP, those colonies would also have been brought into the fold. So instead of only threatening three sectors of Cardassian space located in the western region that provides the greatest strategic depth, Starfleet now threatens six sectors. Including the core territories of Cardassia itself. Against a power that can move its forces around in about half the time the Cardassians can.

 

[What's the sitch?]

I don't know the gnitty gritty of the various techs, but I do know that the UNSC has a rediculous resource base in comparison and that the Cardassians will probably not play some keep away"glass from orbit" game(occupation of Bajor)(cross breeding). The UNSC just needs one ship to reverse engineer, even partially before they can start hitting back/capturing more tech to reverse engineer then its GG.

I think the Cardassians could win several encounters early on and even part way through, but I just don't see them taking the encounters seriously the same way the UNSC would see it as a possible extinction event. They would rally,command and micro everything as best they could for the inevitable opportunity that opens up.

Anyways thats the view I got from Cardassians from DS9 and the view I had from UNSC from reading other peoples fics/cross overs. Could be wrong.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Well, real quick before I finish this week's chapter for Baldur's Gate.

I don't know the gnitty gritty of the various techs, but I do know that the UNSC has a rediculous resource base in comparison

I've addressed this, but while the UNSC has a vast and wide-spread industrial and resource base, it's not without its vulnerabilities. The major flaw in the Covenant's strategy (or lack thereof) was that they blindly stumbled from one planet or another, looking mostly for Forerunner artifacts primarily and exterminating the humans as they went along. There was very little grand strategy involved. Impart that was due to the religious zealotry in regards to their genocide and impart because the Covenant was so far above the UNSC's tech level that they didn't really need to.

and that the Cardassians will probably not play some keep away"glass from orbit" game(occupation of Bajor)(cross breeding).

Well, no. That is true. But that's because even the fascist and racist Cardassian government would be appalled at the level of genocidal mania that exists within the Covenant. What the Cardassians call a radical the Covenant calls the standard. That being said, the Cardassians are not above orbital strikes on strategic targets. A Cardassian Galor's main phaser bank has an output of ~700 MWs and even with the issue of atmospheric bloom, that's more than enough firepower to destroy any target. Anything that can resist that can be taken out by a photon torpedo strike, if need be.

The UNSC just needs one ship to reverse engineer, even partially before they can start hitting back/capturing more tech to reverse engineer then its GG.

That seems very simple.

I can assure you it is not.

Keep in mind that the UNSC had access to Forerunner technology, which was very open in integrating with human users. Keep in mind that the Covenant based the entirety of their technology on Forerunner technology. Keep in mind that therefore, the UNSC had a window and door into not only the architecture of the very programming that the Covenant used, but access to limited physical hardware. Keep in mind the Covenant were notoriously bad at cyber warfare. (in which the UNSC excelled)

Keep in mind the war lasted ~27 years. And that span of time, the UNSC was only JUST beginning to field heavy laser cannons for ground troops. Had just begun to roll out ships that had shielding technology. Had after 27 years, have finally integrated greater FTL and sensor capability into their most recent starships. After 27 years, had yet to integrate a laser defense grid system onto their capital ships. Had yet to produce plasma torpedoes or particle weapons for their ships. In fact, they doubled down upon the poorly designed MAC design and stuck to missiles and ballistic weaponry.

Now I don't say that to downplay the UNSC. The UNSC did very well, especially when you consider the amount of economic, demographic, and political damage they took from having entire worlds exterminated. And keep in mind that the UNSC saw a great deal of utility in producing weapons and designs that favored cyber warfare and asymmetric warfare. But also consider that within the span of ~30 years, the UNSC was only JUST integrating some of the greater technological advantages into their capital ships. And a great deal of this was bare minimum stuff.

So when you pitch the idea that the Cardassians losing a ship to them (which is unlikely--so remote as to be laughable) and that they will somehow reverse engineer this within a timeframe that is relevant to this war, I'm going to need to see that this is possible. Yes, the UNSC is very adaptable. Yes they have some of the best General AI in sci-fi. Yes they are great at stealing technology. No, they won't start rolling off UNSC warships with Cardassian energy weapons within 6-24 months of having obtained the technology.

The first issue is one of programming. The Cardassians would have created their own programming architecture and incorporated that of neighbor aliens throughout their growth. That would undoubtedly include some Federation bits as well, but overall, the UNSC is not going to have the easy door to Cardassian programming science that they did with the UNSC. Second, while the Cardassians are by no means excellent in the field of cyber security, they are not horribly oblivious to its existence.

Being a fascist people, security is a top priority and that is seen in the show. You generally need isoliniar rods to access high security settings in Cardassian society and enclosed security settings such as a station or a ship, where there is a fear that the station or ship might be taken--has downright draconian measures of dealing with insurgents. From releasing toxic gas to generating security force fields to using replicators to produce phaser turrets to a self-destruct sequence that requires the commanding officer to disable it.

Even IF the UNSC were able to obtain enough Cardassian hardware and software to begin an aggressive technological leap forward that they did with the Covenant's technology, the best you can hope for is ships 30 years later having managed only about half of the technologies and only in certain sectors.

The reason is one of great difficulty. Because you not only need to experiment to figure out how something works (which can take months to years), but you also need to find a way to integrate it with current existing technologies. (that will also take months to years to accomplish). You then need to move it from a working prototype to a practical field version that can reliably be deployed by your military within the expected parameters. (again, months to years) You then need to retool your industrial base to be able to produce those new technological goods on a large scale. (that will take years) Assuming you have the specific resources needed to produce it. (which if you don't, could months to years to establish said resource industries). You then need to integrate it with older ships (months to years) as well as integrate it into a brand new ship class that is better able to take advantage of that technology and other emerging technologies. (decades)

The technological disparity is so great between the UNSC and the Cardassians, that the UNSC would need decades to produce ships that could match a single Galor ship at 4 to 1 odds in the Cardassian's favor. The refinement that follows will probably take another 10-20 years. Now, the gap in technology would have considerably closed, that is the way it goes (just ask China), but by that same time, the Cardassians will have also of advanced their own technology. Cardassian technology in 30-50 years will look closer to Starfleet technology of the post Dominion War era. At which point, the UNSC (if they're lucky) will be producing ships that might begin to approach the competitive level that the Cardassians initially started with in only a handful of sectors that the UNSC can compete in.

And in that same time, the Obsidian Order will be plundering the UNSC of their secrets too. From super soldiers to power armor to their advanced General AI. And the Obsidian Order will have a greater time in catching up, because the gap between where the UNSC leads the Union is much smaller than the reverse.

I think the Cardassians could win several encounters early on and even part way through, but I just don't see them taking the encounters seriously the same way the UNSC would see it as a possible extinction event.

See, I think without realizing it, you're trying to have it both ways. You can't insist that the Cardassians will refrain from the widespread carnage that the Covenant will inflict--then also insist that the UNSC will unify as if they did. The UNSC will certainly be able to play the "invaders from outer space" card to great effect, but the fact is that the UNSC is not without its political weaknesses and the Cardassians will eagerly exploit that weakness. A weakness that the Covenant never really even considered. (because it hated all political factions equally)

The Union also won't just stumble from planet to planet; the UNSC has a large web of supply chains that links agricultural and industrial and capital worlds together to form a unified interstellar market. The Cardassians do something similar with their own empire--and so they'll know what to target. If they want to cause food shortages in the UNSC, they hit the agricultural worlds. If they want to break the UNSC's industrial back, they go after the shipyards and the industrial worlds that feed them. If they want to break the political will of the UNSC, they'll work to pit the competing political factions against each other. Specifically the outer vs inner colony.

The Cardassians can supply the UNSC's outer colony rebels with third rate technology a century old and STILL produce a highly competitive terrorist force that hits well above its own weight class. The UNSC won't just be fighting Cardassians, they'll also be facing internal pressures as outer colonies are encouraged to think of themselves as independent and not at war with the Cardassians.

It doesn't have to work so well as to break up the UNSC. All it needs to do is slow down its political, economical, and military process for it to be a success.

They would rally,command and micro everything as best they could for the inevitable opportunity that opens up.

Again, you can't just look at the UNSC as you saw them in the midst of the UNSC-Covenant War, but rather how they would react to a different sort of overwhelming threat. It's really easy to find nationalism when your option is choosing it over being vaporized by a merciless alien race that seeks to wipe out all of mankind. It's NOT so easy when your opponent is simply intent on ruling you--even in a fascist and brutal way. Because at least then you're given the option of living and the hope that it might not be so bad.

The Covenant's own internal political and religious outlook meant that it gave up all political leverage against the UNSC, while they just mostly wandered around aimlessly in UNSC space committing mass genocide. The UNSC was given massive time to ramp up their production capabilities in every sector that mattered and all the political capital that could possibly have been generated.

My impression is that the Cardassians will spent about 2-8 years conquering half of the UNSC (with Earth being a massive prize) and spent maybe 30-70 years occupying it before losing half of those gained territories, due to their own political issues back home. That would allow the remaining UNSC territories to absorb some of the technological wonders of the Cardassians and produce a fleet capable of standing up to (but not really matching) the Cardassians. At the same time, the UNSC will have funneled that technology and other special forces into undermining Cardassian rule within their new occupied territories until the Cardassian public is so sick and tired of it that Central Command is forced to relinquish the territory that they cannot fully hold.

Unfortunately, by that time--complications will have occurred. You will have a significant amount of half-breeds within that former territory that will not be accepted into traditional Cardassian family structure while at the same time not being trusted by their human side. And such groups will in the future, be ruthlessly exploited by the Cardassians so that in times of strength, the Cardassians will be able to stretch out and retake many of those former worlds. (though probably not Earth again) The UNSC may continue to exist, but will likely have formed (at least) two or three different rival power centers within its government and may even split into different governments. After decades for those political, economic, military, and social differences to set in and mutate on their own--getting along is going to be difficult, let alone re-integration into a unified government that was known for its oppression.

Overall, expect what was once the UNSC to be fractured into mini-states that only work together in mutual defense against the Cardassians, but are otherwise competitors. In such cases, historically those states will be minor powers compared to the much stronger and more advanced Cardassian Union.


That's my take.

 

[Deleted member]

To be honest, this is just so far outside of all my memories of DS9 that I am withdrawing, apologies.

 

[Lanmandragon]

I think the obsidian rder should he able to easily break the UNSC. Stirring up Internal srife then when the civil war startsroloing in and taking overseems a solid plan

 

[The Original Sixth]

To be honest, this is just so far outside of all my memories of DS9 that I am withdrawing, apologies.

I like your posts.

That said, I made a more balanced variation on this thread. That might be more to your liking.

 

[What's the sitch?]

Gonna be honest with ya, I only posted here to get another count in my post count so I could see the NFSW forums. I already knew I had no place posting here and would be promptly corrected about how I was wrong despite being asked for my opinion. I would never have posted here or in a few of the other threads I did yesterday otherwise. I gain nothing from argueing scenarios like this on the internet. I just have no real stake in it you know? Even if I did, what do I win? Self satisfaction over anonymous people on the internet? I just i wanted to make somewhat quality post without making random spam.

You seem to already be pretty set in your answer and have a lot of info on and background on it and seem to know what would happen. Why even ask the question or set the scenario?

I'm more a person for just commenting on stories... sometimes and leaving reactions sometimes. But there are not a lot of stories here at this time that I am interested in and could offer more than some generic comment.

My "deepest" opinion on any fandom or fictional setting is, as they are written by authors that decide what is going to happen in the end, is that just about anything is capable of winning against anything. Even if it doesn't look like it at the time they can always just invent something or create some obstacle to changes how things are going.

It's like when in AmericanDad, Stan challenges Roger to a game of "highest number", whoever says the highest number wins, Stan says he will go second, you can guess how that goes.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Gonna be honest with ya, I only posted here to get another count in my post count so I could see the NFSW forums. I already knew I had no place posting here and would be promptly corrected about how I was wrong despite being asked for my opinion.

Who would think badly of you for stating an opinion? I thought you had an interesting post. I enjoyed the challenge you provided. If you don't want to post here, you don't have to. Nevertheless, I think you should.

I would never have posted here or in a few of the other threads I did yesterday otherwise. I gain nothing from argueing scenarios like this on the internet. I just have no real stake in it you know? Even if I did, what do I win? Self satisfaction over anonymous people on the internet? I just i wanted to make somewhat quality post without making random spam.

The enjoyment comes from taking a good post that someone made, thinking it over, and trying to present the best counter argument you can. It sucks if someone happens to have you at a disadvantage, I know what that's like.

You seem to already be pretty set in your answer and have a lot of info on and background on it and seem to know what would happen. Why even ask the question or set the scenario?

I enjoy the challenging responses that people put out. When I respond to people with such an abundance of information and arguments, it's not to crush them under heel. It's because I want to provide the best possible response to their posts. If I thought you sucked I would have either insulted you or ignored you. I thought you had a provocative answer, so I produced what I hoped was a well thought out response. One that's hopefully as well thought out as the one you presented.

I'm more a person for just commenting on stories... sometimes and leaving reactions sometimes. But there are not a lot of stories here at this time that I am interested in and could offer more than some generic comment.

And we are happy to have you!

Debates like this do have a bit of an adversarial style. Which gets out of hands at times, but that's why we have mods to step in and settle things down if it gets out of hand. It's generally not supposed to be personal. What sort of stories do you like to read, by the way?

My "deepest" opinion on any fandom or fictional setting is, as they are written by authors that decide what is going to happen in the end, is that just about anything is capable of winning against anything. Even if it doesn't look like it at the time they can always just invent something or create some obstacle to changes how things are going.

Good debating and good writing are two very different things. Sadly.

This isn't about which is the better genre. Both are really good. I was more of a Trek fan than I was ever a Halo fan, though admittedly Star Trek games have never done nearly as well in my mind as the Halo games have.

It's like when in AmericanDad, Stan challenges Roger to a game of "highest number", whoever says the highest number wins, Stan says he will go second, you can guess how that goes.

Well, the general methodology for this sort of thing is to try and put down what is the most consistent ability for the genres. So for example, everyone has a general idea of what Superman can actually do. Or Iron Man. Sure there are times writers go above and beyond that, but everyone knows that Superman has super speed and Iron Man is really good with technology. These debates sort of take that to the next level...or down several. Really it depends. Each person has their bias and their styles. And blind spots.

 

[What's the sitch?]

Who would think badly of you for stating an opinion? I thought you had an interesting post. I enjoyed the challenge you provided. If you don't want to post here, you don't have to. Nevertheless, I think you should.

Ahh, its not about thinking badly about my opinion, but going over your various replies, they are incredibly lengthy and full of info. I am not as into the fandom and cannot give more than a general idea without real specific numbers or power levels.

In pokemon terms, you are running a fully optimized team with natures/IVs/EVs, abilities and move lists all accounted for. I just showed up with whatever I picked up on my general run through.

I was never in the weight class for the response I was going to receive, I have seen other versus threads on other sites and have seen how they can get, and yet I posted anyway. It is not your fault, it's mine. I just wanted to start reading the lengthy "complaining about other forums thread" that had been referenced to exist in another thread, but I was like 5 posts short at the time.

Also I am just generally non confrontational/adversarial, or is it lazy?, anyway and even "fighting" about things on the internet is against my nature. I'm more of a you said your piece, I'll say mine, maybe another round to clarify and then it's done and best to move on and part amicably.

I've seen too many people on SV and SB with a compulsive need to be "right" that cannot countenance the existence of a differing opinion, as well as many people in real life that turn anything,and every conversation into a competition and it just becomes a chore. The only way to win a lot of times is just to not play the game.

I enjoy the challenging responses that people put out. When I respond to people with such an abundance of information and arguments, it's not to crush them under heel. It's because I want to provide the best possible response to their posts.

Your fine, TLDR I'm just saying I don't have it in me for the slog this could become, I cannot be your worthy opponent. But thanks for thinking that I could be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What sort of stories do you like to read, by the way?

I'll read whatever if I know enough of the setting, or a cross over If I know one of the settings well enough. I've learned several settings via cross over osmosis.

I don't like reading stories that are cross overs and have original characters though, it can get too confusing, especially with a setting I'm still learning or is new to me.