Star Trek The Birth of a Federation Military

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
Except they don't. The Early Galaxy class ships were freakin pleasure yachts that had weapons tacked on after the fact. It isn't until 3 of the original 6 Galaxy class ships get pasted that we see Starfleet getting serious with the design. The ever labeled Venture refits.

And to their credit the Galaxy class got turned into a fucking BEAST!!!!

But as a Military force overall? Starfleet leaves a lot to be desired.
Uh, the Enterprise could tank a ridiculous amount, even early on in the show, and she was shown to be able to deal out quite a bit as well. They blew massive holes in the first Borg cube they ever came across, and it was only their ignorance and insistence on following a very limiting rules of engagement that kept them from just blasting that cube to dust. The Yamato was lost due to a computer virus, and the Odyssey would have made it, even without the benefit of shields (talk about tanking) had the Jem'Hadar not kamikazed into her main deflector dish. The Enterprise herself was only lost due to hax and plot-induced crew incompetence. Those ships were not just pleasure yachts. And as far as we can tell, the only thing that was added to the Venture were a couple more phaser strips to add to the twelve she already had. There was also very little difference between the Enterprise in the main timeline and the one in the alternate timeline where the Federation had been at war with the Klingons since the Enterprise-C disappeared and she was a dedicated warship as far as we could tell.

As far as Starfleet being a military, it always was, even during the soft TNG times - that doesn't mean it was a good one. as the saying goes, "good times make weak men" and all that.
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
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Osaul
Uh, the Enterprise could tank a ridiculous amount, even early on in the show, and she was shown to be able to deal out quite a bit as well. They blew massive holes in the first Borg cube they ever came across, and it was only their ignorance and insistence on following a very limiting rules of engagement that kept them from just blasting that cube to dust. The Yamato was lost due to a computer virus, and the Odyssey would have made it, even without the benefit of shields (talk about tanking) had the Jem'Hadar not kamikazed into her main deflector dish. The Enterprise herself was only lost due to hax and plot-induced crew incompetence. Those ships were not just pleasure yachts. And as far as we can tell, the only thing that was added to the Venture were a couple more phaser strips to add to the twelve she already had. There was also very little difference between the Enterprise in the main timeline and the one in the alternate timeline where the Federation had been at war with the Klingons since the Enterprise-C disappeared and she was a dedicated warship as far as we could tell.

As far as Starfleet being a military, it always was, even during the soft TNG times - that doesn't mean it was a good one. as the saying goes, "good times make weak men" and all that.


I never said the Galaxy class wasn't a tank. The ship had amazing mass that could soak up some serious firepower. Enterprise soaked up repeated disruptor hits to her hull for several minutes from a bird of prey in Generations and only died because of a magnetic interlock rupturing. She survived multiple battles with the Borg on her own. Numerous conflicts with Klingon and Romulan ships.

Tanking enemy fire has never been the problem for the Galaxy. Dishing it out, plus all the mass dedicated to civilian accoutrements rather than tactical, defensive, scientific or engineering assets is where the ship falls short. I should note all those deficiencies were addressed in the class later on in the Dominion war, giving Starfleet a hell of a Battleship. But its very telling that Starfleet opted for the Sovereign class over the Galaxy. The same Sovereign class that was launched in less than 7 years after the Galaxy class. A class that didn't have a 20 year development time period, pushed cutting edge anti-Borg defenses and regenerative shield technology, was commissioned, and then supplanted the Galaxy class as the Federation premier ship of the line. All in only a fraction of the time.

Despite my gripes about the class, don't mistake me as hating the ship. I absolutely love the Galaxy class. She's a beautiful design and a marvel of engineering. She works great as an explorer for long term missions. Which is what the class should have been doing but Starfleet kept them close to federation space.

But the Sovereign...That is one Federation ship that owns my heart. Everything the Galaxy is and also what she should have been but wasn't.
 

Sailor.X

Cold War Veteran
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I never said the Galaxy class wasn't a tank. The ship had amazing mass that could soak up some serious firepower. Enterprise soaked up repeated disruptor hits to her hull for several minutes from a bird of prey in Generations and only died because of a magnetic interlock rupturing. She survived multiple battles with the Borg on her own. Numerous conflicts with Klingon and Romulan ships.

Tanking enemy fire has never been the problem for the Galaxy. Dishing it out, plus all the mass dedicated to civilian accoutrements rather than tactical, defensive, scientific or engineering assets is where the ship falls short. I should note all those deficiencies were addressed in the class later on in the Dominion war, giving Starfleet a hell of a Battleship. But its very telling that Starfleet opted for the Sovereign class over the Galaxy. The same Sovereign class that was launched in less than 7 years after the Galaxy class. A class that didn't have a 20 year development time period, pushed cutting edge anti-Borg defenses and regenerative shield technology, was commissioned, and then supplanted the Galaxy class as the Federation premier ship of the line. All in only a fraction of the time.

Despite my gripes about the class, don't mistake me as hating the ship. I absolutely love the Galaxy class. She's a beautiful design and a marvel of engineering. She works great as an explorer for long term missions. Which is what the class should have been doing but Starfleet kept them close to federation space.

But the Sovereign...That is one Federation ship that owns my heart. Everything the Galaxy is and also what she should have been but wasn't.
Then after the Dominion War this Behemoth enters the Fleet.

maxresdefault.jpg



Ton for Ton the most Powerful Federation ship of the 24th Century.

 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
Regarding the Galaxy class vs Dominion ships, note that the Dominion's powerlevel was unprecedented in the setting. The Galaxy was designed for a region in which the strongest adversaries were Romulan and Klingon warbirds, against which one couldn't have asked the Galaxy to perform any better. The Galaxy was pretty much the king of the Alpha Quadrant. There was no way anyone could have planned for an empire that rivalled the Federation showing up from the other side of the galaxy with inexplicably stronger weapons and shields. The only thing that really compared was the Borg, but the Borg was a one off event, which provoked Starfleet to start some research into smaller, dedicated gunboats.
 
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Spartan303

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The Dominion also had a bit of an early sucker punch in that their polaron beams ignored Federation (and everybody else's) shields. The fact that Federation ships were managing to fight back and win victories when they were effectively unshielded speaks volumes for how good of warships they were.


No. Starfleet eventually corrected that problem. You even have Dukat grudgingly admit to 'finding it wise to never underestimate the Federations technical skills.'
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
No. Starfleet eventually corrected that problem. You even have Dukat grudgingly admit to 'finding it wise to never underestimate the Federations technical skills.'

Eventually, yes. But the Odyssey managed to last several minutes at least without shields and was eventually destroyed by a kamikaze run (and nobody up until that point indicated she was in immediate danger of destruction, despite the heavy damage), and I believe Defiant had several battles against the Battlebugs before the shield modifications were in place, though I am not exactly positive on that.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Eventually, yes. But the Odyssey managed to last several minutes at least without shields and was eventually destroyed by a kamikaze run (and nobody up until that point indicated she was in immediate danger of destruction, despite the heavy damage), and I believe Defiant had several battles against the Battlebugs before the shield modifications were in place, though I am not exactly positive on that.
Yeah, we get Dukat's statement about shields in the finale of season five. They'd done a lot of skirmishing with the Dominion by then.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
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Eventually, yes. But the Odyssey managed to last several minutes at least without shields and was eventually destroyed by a kamikaze run (and nobody up until that point indicated she was in immediate danger of destruction, despite the heavy damage), and I believe Defiant had several battles against the Battlebugs before the shield modifications were in place, though I am not exactly positive on that.
The Odyssey didn't just get rammed in the Deflector (which tends to be highly charged), but the location it was hit by the bugship almost exactly lined up with where the primary anti-matter fuel storage was. IIRC the episode even has it go down with a series of explosions, there's the initial impact explosion from the collision and then a secondary, more massive explosion due to the loss of containment on the anti-matter storage...

Given how big the Galaxies were, that's a LOT of anti-matter to cook off...
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
The Odyssey didn't just get rammed in the Deflector (which tends to be highly charged), but the location it was hit by the bugship almost exactly lined up with where the primary anti-matter fuel storage was. IIRC the episode even has it go down with a series of explosions, there's the initial impact explosion from the collision and then a secondary, more massive explosion due to the loss of containment on the anti-matter storage...

Given how big the Galaxies were, that's a LOT of anti-matter to cook off...

Not only that, but it would appear that battlebug lost its antimatter containment first:


So what caused that damage was not the collision impact itself, it was essentially a massive antimatter bomb going off next to the hull.
 

The Original Sixth

Well-known member
Founder
I never said the Galaxy class wasn't a tank. The ship had amazing mass that could soak up some serious firepower. Enterprise soaked up repeated disruptor hits to her hull for several minutes from a bird of prey in Generations and only died because of a magnetic interlock rupturing. She survived multiple battles with the Borg on her own. Numerous conflicts with Klingon and Romulan ships.

Tanking enemy fire has never been the problem for the Galaxy. Dishing it out, plus all the mass dedicated to civilian accoutrements rather than tactical, defensive, scientific or engineering assets is where the ship falls short. I should note all those deficiencies were addressed in the class later on in the Dominion war, giving Starfleet a hell of a Battleship. But its very telling that Starfleet opted for the Sovereign class over the Galaxy. The same Sovereign class that was launched in less than 7 years after the Galaxy class. A class that didn't have a 20 year development time period, pushed cutting edge anti-Borg defenses and regenerative shield technology, was commissioned, and then supplanted the Galaxy class as the Federation premier ship of the line. All in only a fraction of the time.

Despite my gripes about the class, don't mistake me as hating the ship. I absolutely love the Galaxy class. She's a beautiful design and a marvel of engineering. She works great as an explorer for long term missions. Which is what the class should have been doing but Starfleet kept them close to federation space.

But the Sovereign...That is one Federation ship that owns my heart. Everything the Galaxy is and also what she should have been but wasn't.

Well, the Galaxy wasn't supposed to be a battleship. It was intended as an Explorer class.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
Mind you one flaw of the Galaxy class is that it literally has a torpedo launcher it can't use without being in Sasuer separation mode which could have been easily solved by moving the thing a couple decks up
 

The Original Sixth

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Mind you one flaw of the Galaxy class is that it literally has a torpedo launcher it can't use without being in Sasuer separation mode which could have been easily solved by moving the thing a couple decks up

Actually, I don't think that's the case. I think you're misremembering the issue. There is most definitely a phaser strip that is not in use unless they enter saucer separation mode, which does highlight a flaw in its design. That being that the two largest and most capable phaser strips are supposed to detach from the combat-portion of the ship and fly away from the fighting. Along with two of the three impulse engines.

A flaw that was impart highlighted in Best of Both Worlds. I think it would have made more sense to retain at least two engines on the stardrive section and probably find a way for the stardrive to retain a fairly sizeable phaser array comparable to that of the saucer section. Which could be achieved by having more of the lower portion of the saucer section be connected to the stardrive. And of course, maybe put a torpedo launcher on the saucer section if you're hope is to launch it away at warp speed.

That way they can actually have a decent chance at defending themselves at FTL speeds should they be pursued.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
Actually, I don't think that's the case. I think you're misremembering the issue. There is most definitely a phaser strip that is not in use unless they enter saucer separation mode, which does highlight a flaw in its design. That being that the two largest and most capable phaser strips are supposed to detach from the combat-portion of the ship and fly away from the fighting. Along with two of the three impulse engines.

A flaw that was impart highlighted in Best of Both Worlds. I think it would have made more sense to retain at least two engines on the stardrive section and probably find a way for the stardrive to retain a fairly sizeable phaser array comparable to that of the saucer section. Which could be achieved by having more of the lower portion of the saucer section be connected to the stardrive. And of course, maybe put a torpedo launcher on the saucer section if you're hope is to launch it away at warp speed.

That way they can actually have a decent chance at defending themselves at FTL speeds should they be pursued.
its in the deck plans. mind you its been awhile since i saw said plans and went over them in depth
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
I don't see it as a design flaw that they gave the two halves of the ship weapons they can only use while separated. Again, the saucer section's torpedo launcher was mounted to cover a weak spot, namely the ass, as it runs away, though both its lateral arrays can fire to the rear. You are also assuming without any basis that the smaller arrays on the stardrive sections are weaker than those on the saucer section, yet in every reference I have seen about them, they are all referred to as "Type 10" arrays. They've also been depicted to have an impressive firing arc. It also makes sense to give the stardrive section and extra array to cover the front of that section after the saucer has been separated. How is that in any way a "flaw"? The only flaw in the design is the exposed bridge, and that is a weakness all of the ships, including the Defiant share to varying extents. And that's GR's fault for wanting to give the audience a visual reference.
 

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