Star Trek The Birth of a Federation Military

[Bear Ribs]

The issue with the idea of fighters being effective, cheap, but highly risky combat units is that it just explains why the federation eschews them. It does not explain why everyone else does. The Dominion has zero regard for the lives of its soldiers and ample resources, but doesn't have fighters, instead flavoring a mix of very heavy capships back by larger swarms of light warships. The Klingons, with a warrior ethos that heavily values personal success as a warrior and value death in battle, don't field fighters, even though fighter pilots are infamously prone to becoming glory hound egomaniacs due to the nature of the role, which sounds like it would fit the Klingon mindset quite well.

The Klingons... do? As do the Jem'Hadar. The B'rel is inconsistent as all Trek ships tend to be on size but it generally gets estimated at about 100-110 meters. The Jem'Hadar fighter (which is specifically called out as a fighter on-screen) is estimated to be 68-100 meters. Meanwhile Chakotay's Maquis Raider is estimated at 50-60 meters so in a similar ballpark given that all the numbers are extremely rough estimations. These numbers are all calced by Ex Astris Scientia. Trek fighters aren't the size of Volkswagen beetles with one person in them, they're what you're calling light warships.

More importantly we see both B'Rels and Jem'Hadar attack ships behaving like fighters, they close in and maneuver like fighters, use forward facing weapons with limited traverse, and come in swarms rather than acting like capital craft would. In every way that matters they behave much as Federation fighters do.

 

[Battlegrinder]

The Klingons... do? As do the Jem'Hadar. The B'rel is inconsistent as all Trek ships tend to be on size but it generally gets estimated at about 100-110 meters. The Jem'Hadar fighter (which is specifically called out as a fighter on-screen) is estimated to be 68-100 meters. Meanwhile Chakotay's Maquis Raider is estimated at 50-60 meters so in a similar ballpark given that all the numbers are extremely rough estimations. These numbers are all calced by Ex Astris Scientia. Trek fighters aren't the size of Volkswagen beetles with one person in them, they're what you're calling light warships.

More importantly we see both B'Rels and Jem'Hadar attack ships behaving like fighters, they close in and maneuver like fighters, use forward facing weapons with limited traverse, and come in swarms rather than acting like capital craft would. In every way that matters they behave much as Federation fighters do.

B'rels, jem'hadar attack ships, and the raider are not "fighters the size of light warships", they are light warships. Actual star trek fighters, like the federation fighter, one or two man craft the size of runabouts, so like ~20 meters long (An F-22 is 19 meters long), not a ship 5 times bigger with a crew that's also much larger. Chakotay's ship had like 30 or 40 people on it.

 

[Bear Ribs]

B'rels, jem'hadar attack ships, and the raider are not "fighters the size of light warships", they are light warships. Actual star trek fighters, like the federation fighter, one or two man craft the size of runabouts, so like ~20 meters long (An F-22 is 19 meters long), not a ship 5 times bigger with a crew that's also much larger. Chakotay's ship had like 30 or 40 people on it.

No, what you're calling out there is the Peregrine class courier, not the Federation fighter. The Maquis did try to arm some of them but they were not Federation Fighters but refitted civilian courier craft. From the DS9 episode Heart of Stone:

Kira: "They've just been attacked by a Maquis interceptor."
Odo: "Long-range sensors are detecting a modified Peregrine-class courier ship. Lightly armed, one man crew, bearing 268 mark 301."
Kira: "The Maquis use Peregrine-class courier ships."

Note that we never see a Peregrine on-screen. Nobody's quite sure what it actually is and Ex Astris Scientia has at least 4 potential candidates for it ranging from 10-100 meters long depending on your choice of shots and ship since Trek scaling can get incredibly wonky.

 

[Battlegrinder]

No, what you're calling out there is the Peregrine class courier, not the Federation fighter. The Maquis did try to arm some of them but they were not Federation Fighters but refitted civilian courier craft. From the DS9 episode Heart of Stone:

Kira: "They've just been attacked by a Maquis interceptor."
Odo: "Long-range sensors are detecting a modified Peregrine-class courier ship. Lightly armed, one man crew, bearing 268 mark 301."
Kira: "The Maquis use Peregrine-class courier ships."

Note that we never see a Peregrine on-screen. Nobody's quite sure what it actually is and Ex Astris Scientia has at least 4 potential candidates for it ranging from 10-100 meters long depending on your choice of shots and ship since Trek scaling can get incredibly wonky.

That very page notes the one that's actually seen in use as federation fighter a single man ship that is less than 30m long, and usually about 25, it may or may not be the Peregrine (though some non-show sources, such as STO, confirm that is), but what matters is that's clearly not a corvette-type ship like the Jem hadar attack ship and the B'rel.

 

[Bear Ribs]

That very page notes the one that's actually seen in use as federation fighter a single man ship that is less than 30m long, and usually about 25, it may or may not be the Peregrine (though some non-show sources, such as STO, confirm that is), but what matters is that's clearly not a corvette-type ship like the Jem hadar attack ship and the B'rel.

It says that it's at least 30 meters, maybe more but they can't square that with the interior cockpit set (a re-used shuttle set) which was much smaller and 25 meters is their compromise estimate between sets.

When we look at them in action the Federation fighters and the Jem'Hadar fighters act exactly the same way. Take a look at the attack run in Sacrifice of Angels:


A squad of fighters makes a run on a capital ship firing forward-mounted weapons as they close in.

Now how about Jem'Hadar fighters in The Die is Cast?


Identical tactics, a squad of fighters makes a run on a capital ship firing forward-mounted weapons as they close in.

How about Klingon B'rels? Go back to Sacrifice of Angels and advance the video to 2:25 and you see a squad of them making a run on a capital ship firing forward mounted weapons as they close in.

We also see fighter-level durability in them, Jem'Hadar fighters often come apart in 1 or 2 hits just like Federation fighters and B'rels do the same. They do not tank hits the way you might expect a capital-class craft to. They do not mount omni-directional weaponry the way capital ships do either, they all behave like fighters instead of capital ships.

You can argue that one's a fighter and one's a corvette but they use the same movement profile, attack style, and tactics. Nobody on-screen ever calls them "corvettes" but they do call them "fighters." There's no actual logical reason to say they're different types of vessel unless you think "how many meters long" is an actual determiner of what kind of ship it is, and given that any estimate on length in Trek can vary by an order of magnitude between episodes, that's hardly a useful determiner.

What you're bumping up against is that by our standards of fighters these things are huge, with large crews compared to an F-22. The thing is, nobody uses carriers, the fighters are all capable of independent warp travel and fly to their destinations. Now what warp speed actually is is pretty fuzzy as well. However given what we know, even a trip to Alpha Centauri from Earth is a few days unless you're doing Warp 9.lots o' 9s. You could be stuck in it a month easy even for a short jaunt, possibly much more. A bathroom, bed, and food stations are required along with a second and possibly third and fourth crew member to spell you at the helm unless you're a peaceful courier in non-wartime conditions. That's part of why Trek fighters tend to be so large.

 

[Sailor.X]

Well for Warships.....

The Saber Class would be a good choice for a new battle capable fleet of ships that could Zerg Rush the Carddies.

 

[Bear Ribs]

My personal choice would be the Akira class. According to Alex Jaeger (the designer of that and many other ships) he designed it to have 15 torpedo tubes and a flight deck running through the middle so it could serve as an aircraft carrier type. It was his gunship/carrier/battlecruier of the Federation.

 

[The Original Sixth]

The issue with the idea of fighters being effective, cheap, but highly risky combat units is that it just explains why the federation eschews them.

The Federation does not eschew them. They've used them in multiple engagements during the Dominion War.

Sacrifice of Angels

SISKO: Forget the Klingons. Our job is to get to Deep Space Nine and prevent the Dominion reinforcements from coming through the wormhole, and that's what we're going to do. Attack fighters, tactical pattern Theta. Concentrate your fire on the Cardassian ships, and then split off into squadrons and run like hell.
NOG: Why is he only targeting the Cardassian ships?
GARAK: He's hoping to get them to break formation and so they'll after the Federation fighters. He knows the Jem'Hadar will stand their ground, but the Cardassians just might get angry enough to take the bait.

NOG: Attack fighters in Theta formation. Cruiser and Galaxy wings at half impulse.
SISKO: Sisko to attack fighters. Prepare to engage on my command.

BASHIR: You should listen to him, Ensign. He's a professional.
SISKO: Attack fighters full impulse. Fire at will.
O'BRIEN: They're not taking the bait.
SISKO: Ensign, send in the second wave. Tell them to keep targeting the Cardassians.
NOG: Aye, sir. Second wave on its way. Third and fourth waves on hot standby.
SISKO: Mister O'Brien, have Destroyer units two and six move in closer. They need more cover fire. And tell Captains Diego and Reynolds to stay alert. They may try to outflank us.

DAMAR: I'll say this for Captain Sisko, he is persistent. That's the ninth wave of Federation fighters he's sent against us.
DUKAT: Well, his persistence is about to pay off. Let's give him his reward, shall we? Have a half dozen squadrons break formation and go after those fighters.
DAMAR: Yes, sir.

SISKO: The Magellan and the Venture are supposed to be protecting our starboard flanks. They're in too tight. Ensign, tell fighter squadrons six, seven and eight to...
NOG: Sir, I can't get through to anybody. Communications are down.

Not only were fighters seen and mentioned, but they played a pivotal role in Sisko's strategy in baiting the Cardassians.

It does not explain why everyone else does. The Dominion has zero regard for the lives of its soldiers and ample resources, but doesn't have fighters, instead flavoring a mix of very heavy capships back by larger swarms of light warships.

You're misinformed.

Jem'Hadar fighter

A Jem'Hadar fighter, or Jem'Hadar attack ship, was a small type of warship that formed the bulk of the Dominion fleet. These versatile starships were also known to perform the roles of patrol ships and scout ships. Jem'Hadar fighters were vaguely insectoid shaped, looking much like a Terran...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

That small ship that the Dominion likes to swarm with? They're classified as fighters. The TM classifies it as a strike fighter. And yes, they're also classified as fighters in the show. At least once and supposedly from time to time.

The Die is Cast

LOVOK: What type of ships?
PILOT: Jem'Hadar fighters.
TAIN: How many? I asked you a question.
PILOT: One hundred fifty.
TAIN: Tactical display on screen.

It should be noted that the Cardassian Hideki is also classified as a fighter in the script for Sacrifice of Angels, though on screen it was mentioned as a shuttle (but that's because the design was recycled, much like the Peregrine fighter itself).

the Klingons, with a warrior ethos that heavily values personal success as a warrior and value death in battle, don't field fighters, even though fighter pilots are infamously prone to becoming glory hound egomaniacs due to the nature of the role, which sounds like it would fit the Klingon mindset quite well.

There is irrefutable proof that ST has fighters. In literal dialogue from multiple episodes, where they're pivotal to actions that the heroes are taking. And going by its size and function, I suspect that the Klingon BOP occupies much the same position as other fighters. It's just a more supped up version.

As to why the confusion exists, it seems to me that the fighters in the setting occupy a sort of hybrid function. That of a patrol/fighter craft. And each power has a sort of balance on how they lean towards one or the other function. For the Federation, they seem to be more primarily used as fighter or courier roles. It's not worth keeping even a small frigate around to protect a small colony, but a squadron or two of fighters? Not only would the economic burden be little more than supplying a shuttlecraft (of which everyone seems to have plenty of) while providing the ability to patrol within the system's reach. Consider pirates and mercenaries. Also consider that one outfit in TNG was bold enough to even attack what amounts to a para-military science facility.

The Dominion and the Cardassians tend to make use of their fighters in a more patrol function, with limited roles as fighters. The Cardassians primarily due to cost and resources, are better off with moderate size patrol craft that can keep their dominated worlds in check. The Dominion, being so vast in size and capability, greatly benefits from having smaller patrol craft that can deploy troops and perform key strikes, but both need to retain greater mobility than you might find on a capital ship.

The Klingons are the farthest away--so much so that it's more like a scout ship that might occasionally take on fighter roles. They can patrol, move in small squadrons, and perform more long-range missions as a patrol craft, but are also generally the ones to take on roles that in today's world, would be mostly attributed with stealth fighters.

EDIT

Between the visuals of the squadrons in the show and the fact that Sisko sent 9 waves, with at least 4 waves being different waves (ie, first wave sent, second following, three and four on standby) and assuming there were ONLY four per wave, you'd get at least 192 fighters. If each wave was in fact, a fresh new wave, it jumps to 432 fighters. And that's only really assuming one group per wave. If Sisko sent say, two groups per wave, those numbers double, so the number of fighters that Sisko used to bait the Cardassians could be between 384-864 fighters, but were at least 192-432 fighters, depending on how you want to frame it.

SECOND EDIT

It should also be noted that "fighters" in space are not really a sound strategic ploy in large scale fleet engagements. Modern fighters are used because we have a horizon over which ships cannot accurately hit their targets. And so fighters were an answer to that limited range; cross the distance with small little weapon platforms that deliver near-battleship firepower to the enemy.

In space, where most of the area is empty, fighters as we understand them don't really pose much of an advantage. It's cheaper and safer to use use drones and missiles instead.

Hence, ST fighters being a cross between courier/scout/fighter makes sense. It's the only way that they can really be competitive in their environment.

THIRD EDIT

We probably shouldn't get too hung up on visuals specifics, because this is the same show where they regularly had deflector dishes firing phaser/disruptor cannons throughout the series from the ship models and never bothering to stop. Which is really funny, because all those models had actual guns on them.

FOURTH EDIT

Upon further thought, the Federation had deployed 600 ships to the battle. There are two ways you can take that.

First, you might assume that the fighters were not a part of the ship count. In which case, you'd probably expect that if a military force deployed 600 capital ships, they probably deployed thousands of fighters.

Second, you might presume that the fighters were part of the count. Indeed, the LUG sources suggest that this is the case. It would therefore be illogical to assume that the Federation deployed more capital ships than fighters, going by simple economics of production, in which case you might have 432 fighters and 168 capital ships.

In which case, we might assume similar numbers for everyone else. The Dominion fleet would be primarily composed of 72% fighters (which I mean, looks right regardless), presuming that the Dominion *only* supplied 1/3rd of their military force towards the end of the war (and it's probably closer to 2/3rds) you would get 7,200 fighters and 2,800 capital ships.

In either case, during Operation Return, you would have say 903 fighters for the Dominion and 351 capital ships for the Dominion.

So it was:

UFP
Fighters: 432
Capital Ships: 168

Dominion
Fighters: 903
Capital Ships: 351

Might explain why after the Klingons arrived and took out several capital ships, that the battle itself began to turn against the Dominion. Because even though the fighter count was astronomically in favor of the Dominion, the absolute difference between capital ships was not so high. Especially when you might consider that it looked like a more or less even split between the Cardassian and Dominion capital ships--and Sisko's waves of fighters had routinely targeted those same ships. Which are outdated and behind Dominion and Federation ships.

So, something worth considering.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Actually, on further musing, the Die is Cast had 20 capital ships up against 150 fighters. That's 7.5 fighters per capital ship. In DS9, assuming the allied forces had a total of 300 capital ships with Klingon reinforcements and they managed to cripple the enemy capital ships, the allies would be in a much stronger position number-wise. Even at just 200 to the 900 fighter fleet, that's only 4.5 fighters per capital ship. And it would ignore the hundreds of fighters the Federation would still have.

 

[Battlegrinder]

The Federation does not eschew them. They've used them in multiple engagements during the Dominion War.

Yes, I know, they used them that one time. But you misunderstand my point. I didn't starfleet has no fighters, I said they don't use them in the role that was proposed upthread, as a colonial defense militia ship. We've seen dozens and dozens of federation colonies in the show, several of which involved the colony being attacked by enemies, and not once did they scramble fighters to defend themselves. The only defensive systems we've seen are shielded ground installations, satellite weapons, and I think sometimes some surface to space batteries.

That small ship that the Dominion likes to swarm with? They're classified as fighters. The TM classifies it as a strike fighter. And yes, they're also classified as fighters in the show. At least once and supposedly from time to time.

It doesn't matter what they call it, it matters what it actually is, and a hundred meter long, 2000 ton ship with a crew of several dozen people is not a in any way a starfighter. The jem Hadar ships, along with the b'rel, the hidiki, the defiant, and the saber, etc, are not fighter. They are light warships.

When we look at them in action the Federation fighters and the Jem'Hadar fighters act exactly the same way.

Well, no. Those federation fighters get one shot by capships, birds of prey and jem Hadar ships can take much more damage.

We also see fighter-level durability in them, Jem'Hadar fighters often come apart in 1 or 2 hits just like Federation fighters and B'rels do the same. They do not tank hits the way you might expect a capital-class craft to. They do not mount omni-directional weaponry the way capital ships do either, they all behave like fighters instead of capital ships.

Actually, they do tank hits far better than shuttles. Not consistently given DS9 had a habit of making ships in fleet engagements explode at the drop of a hat, but outside of that big CGI fests they were as tough as you'd expect a vessel of thier size to be.

Frankly, your position here is a little bit dubious, do you really think it's sensible to argue thst a 22 meter long ship should have hull and shields strength on par with a technologically equivalent ship several times it's size, that would have a thicker hull, an more powerful reactor, etc?

What about the Defiant, it's also a fighter by this logic, and yet can take far more damage the a federation fighter can. If federation ships were so much more capable than Dominion ones, to the point that they could easily take four or five times the amount of damage that Dominion ships could, the war would have been in thier favor from day 1 given the Dominion rarely had more than a 2 to one edge in numbers (and don't say "but they call the defiant a tough little ship". They call her tough, not "an order of magnitude stronger than a ship this size has any right to be"). Also, someone probably would have mentioned that particular fact at some point.

You can argue that one's a fighter and one's a corvette but they use the same movement profile, attack style, and tactics. Nobody on-screen ever calls them "corvettes" but they do call them "fighters."

All modern surface warships (aside from carriers) use the same attack style, tactics, and maneuvers, but are still different classes. And what they call them in universe is irrelevant, largely because their definitions don't necessarily line up with ours. IE, star trek's propensity to call any large warship a battlecruiser, even though battlecruisers are defined by being a hybrid of cruisers and battleships, and star trek has no battleships.

There's no actual logical reason to say they're different types of vessel unless you think "how many meters long" is an actual determiner of what kind of ship it is, and given that any estimate on length in Trek can vary by an order of magnitude between episodes, that's hardly a useful determiner.

Ships tend to be inconsistent in size, but aside from the b'rel they're usually roughly in the same range. And yes, size does matter. Larger ships are better, they mount more and better weapons, more powerful reactors, possess superior range, sensors, faster War drives, and a dozen other advantages.

What you're bumping up against is that by our standards of fighters these things are huge, with large crews compared to an F-22. The thing is, nobody uses carriers, the fighters are all capable of independent warp travel and fly to their destinations. Now what warp speed actually is is pretty fuzzy as well. However given what we know, even a trip to Alpha Centauri from Earth is a few days unless you're doing Warp 9.lots o' 9s. You could be stuck in it a month easy even for a short jaunt, possibly much more. A bathroom, bed, and food stations are required along with a second and possibly third and fourth crew member to spell you at the helm unless you're a peaceful courier in non-wartime conditions. That's part of why Trek fighters tend to be so large.

That's a plausible argument, but it has a peregrine class fighter sized hole in it. And also in some material, an even more massive, space carrier sized hole.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Yes, I know, they used them that one time.

No, no. They didn't just use them that one time. They used them throughout the war. That war lasted for 2 seasons and those fighters were in multiple battles. As were the Jem'Hadar fighters. In fact, they were the most commonly deployed ship of the Dominion.

But you misunderstand my point. I didn't starfleet has no fighters, I said they don't use them in the role that was proposed upthread, as a colonial defense militia ship. We've seen dozens and dozens of federation colonies in the show, several of which involved the colony being attacked by enemies, and not once did they scramble fighters to defend themselves. The only defensive systems we've seen are shielded ground installations, satellite weapons, and I think sometimes some surface to space batteries.

Actually, we've never really seen a full on attack against a colony world that I recall. Though keep in mind I don't sully myself with Discovery. In which case, we've gotten bits and pieces of what ground-based installations use. That does tend to be what you suggested, but there's no reason why one wouldn't argue that fighters might not supplement those. I don't see how it's controversial. It's both rather sensible and well within their means.

And really, when you consider the damage that some colonies have sustained from orbital bombardment--to the point of being reduced to a planetary wasteland--a colonist grabbing their old plasma rifle and taking pot shots at the sky is probably NOT going to cut it. What they probably do have is a range of ground facilities, fighters, and rapidly converted shuttles/craft that are used to defend themselves.

It doesn't matter what they call it, it matters what it actually is, and a hundred meter long, 2000 ton ship with a crew of several dozen people is not a in any way a starfighter. The jem Hadar ships, along with the b'rel, the hidiki, the defiant, and the saber, etc, are not fighter. They are light warships.

Well, no. Those federation fighters get one shot by capships,

They actually weren't. We saw onscreen that it took at least two hits to take out a Peregrine in one instance. Since we do not get a full scope of the battle, it's very likely that most weapons that can hit those fighters requires about two hits, possibly depending on where the blow lands. And if they were really that fragile, one would think the Cardassians would have laughed at the Maquis using them to engage their own ships.

birds of prey and jem Hadar ships can take much more damage.

Yes, because they are much, much larger.

Frankly, your position here is a little bit dubious, do you really think it's sensible to argue thst a 22 meter long ship should have hull and shields strength on par with a technologically equivalent ship several times it's size, that would have a thicker hull, an more powerful reactor, etc?

Well, it may not work that way. I mean, all it really requires is that the shield is more powerful than most of the individual weapons on the enemy platform. Since we see that they have a harder time hitting the smaller fighters and generally they'd only use the smaller guns to target those ships...well, it stands to reason that it could work. If you look at the GCS, her output for the three large arrays is pretty high (GW level), but the output for her smaller arrays that would obviously be used to defend from smaller craft trying to flank is much, much lower in terms of yield (double digit to maybe triple digit MW level). All you really need is for shielding technology to be more capable of what energy weapons can produce on that particular scale.

What about the Defiant, it's also a fighter by this logic, and yet can take far more damage the a federation fighter can. If federation ships were so much more capable than Dominion ones, to the point that they could easily take four or five times the amount of damage that Dominion ships could, the war would have been in tgier favor from day 1 given the Dominion rarely had more than a 2 to one edge in numbers (and don't say "but they call the defiant a tough little ship". They call her tough, not "an order of magnitude stronger than a ship this size has any right to be").

Actually, the Defiant may reinforce the position. The Defiant is far, FAR smaller than most capital ships, in both length and sheer volume, but manages to remain competitive regardless.

Ships tend to be inconsistent in size, but aside from the b'rel they're usually roughly in the same range. And yes, size does matter. Larger ships are better, they mount more and better weapons, more powerful reactors, possess superior range, sensors, faster War drives, and a dozen other advantages.

There is an obvious advantage, but consider that the advantage does not scale as greatly as it probably should. Consider the Defiant. Despite its much smaller size, it's able to achieve a really high warp factor. In fact, most ships are able to achieve a high warp factor. Look at the TNG TM, most ships, regardless of their size in comparison to the largest of ships, are far faster than what you might expect--despite the fact that they can't possibly hold nearly the same amount of volume.

That's a plausible argument, but it has a peregrine class fighter sized hole in it. And also in some material, an even more massive, space carrier sized hole.

Actually, we know that the Maquis ones were able to move from system to system, so they have to be able to achieve a respectable warp speed. They're clearly short to medium range weapons platforms, which is what you might expect from a hybrid between fighters and scout ships.

 

[S'task]

It doesn't matter what they call it, it matters what it actually is, and a hundred meter long, 2000 ton ship with a crew of several dozen people is not a in any way a starfighter. The jem Hadar ships, along with the b'rel, the hidiki, the defiant, and the saber, etc, are not fighter. They are light warships.

Err...

You're forgetting something that we know has happened in real life: terminology drift.

Warships in real life are perfect examples of this, as technology and construction methods have improved, warships have just gotten bigger, considerable larger in fact than their prior counterparts to the point where some of our lighter warships now are the size and tonnage of what used to be termed battleships; compare, for instance the old Indiana-class battleship and the more modern Zumwalt-class destroyer. Why is the Zumwalt a destroyer when it masses 50% more than an early 20th century Battleship? Because it performs the ROLE of a Destroyer, not the role of a Battleship.

"Fighter" in Star Trek may be a situation of similar terminology drift, those smaller light ships are used in the role of a fighter (working in groups, using strafing tactics over standing tactics, depending on maneuverability over shielding for survivability) and thus are termed as such. Sure, they are much larger than what most people expect a space fighter to be, but if you told people in the early 20th century, we'd have Destroyers that are 50% larger than the then current Battleships they'd have thought we are being ridiculous.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

Honestly the Saber class is probably what the Federation would mass produce as their primary light starship class in peacetime since its decently armed and reasonable tough and unlike the Defiant it has capabilities and facilities that are useful outside of primarily tactical situations

 

[S'task]

Despite its much smaller size, it's able to achieve a really high warp factor.

Uhh... no it can't?

For the period it was designed in the Defiant class is notably slow for its size and role when compared to its contemporary designs. The maximum warp of the Defiant class is Warp 9.5, meanwhile the similarly small Saber class has a maximum warp of 9.7. Meanwhile the Akira class can pull warp 9.8, and finally the Steamrunner class tops out at warp 9.6.

These may sound similar, but you must remember that TNG warp scale is logarithmic and each increase in warp speed above 9 is exponentially faster than the step below it. The Defiant is EXCEPTIONALLY slow compared to its contemporaries, to say nothing of actual Cruiser designs like the Intrepid class with its ridiculously high max speed of warp 9.975.

Now there's good reason for this when you look at how Star Trek warp works: the Defiant class has LOUSY Warp geometry with its hull-integrated nacelles that barely can see each other. Meanwhile all those other designs use more conventional nacelle arrangements which give them better warp geometry (and better fuel efficiency because of it too), the only ship listed besides the Defiant that doesn't use more conventional geometry is the Steamrunner class, and it's also notably on the slower side (though it does have greater nacelle to nacelle visibility.

And, bear in mind, this is actually a very consistent rule in Trek, it's actually one of the things that Trek is the MOST consistent on. So long as the species is using conventional warp drives, integrated nacelles give worse performance than exposed nacelles. Klingon Birds of Prey in all configurations, for instance, are notable slower than pretty much all other ships while the Vorcha and others have better performance. Similarly the Romulans while they use a different power source also make sure to have nacelles in conventional configurations to give them optimum effectiveness, as does the highly warlike Dominion.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Uhh... no it can't?

For the period it was designed in the Defiant class is notably slow for its size and role when compared to its contemporary designs. The maximum warp of the Defiant class is Warp 9.5, meanwhile the similarly small Saber class has a maximum warp of 9.7. Meanwhile the Akira class can pull warp 9.8, and finally the Steamrunner class tops out at warp 9.6.

These may sound similar, but you must remember that TNG warp scale is logarithmic and each increase in warp speed above 9 is exponentially faster than the step below it. The Defiant is EXCEPTIONALLY slow compared to its contemporaries, to say nothing of actual Cruiser designs like the Intrepid class with its ridiculously high max speed of warp 9.975.

Now there's good reason for this when you look at how Star Trek warp works: the Defiant class has LOUSY Warp geometry with its hull-integrated nacelles that barely can see each other. Meanwhile all those other designs use more conventional nacelle arrangements which give them better warp geometry (and better fuel efficiency because of it too), the only ship listed besides the Defiant that doesn't use more conventional geometry is the Steamrunner class, and it's also notably on the slower side (though it does have greater nacelle to nacelle visibility.

And, bear in mind, this is actually a very consistent rule in Trek, it's actually one of the things that Trek is the MOST consistent on. So long as the species is using conventional warp drives, integrated nacelles give worse performance than exposed nacelles. Klingon Birds of Prey in all configurations, for instance, are notable slower than pretty much all other ships while the Vorcha and others have better performance. Similarly the Romulans while they use a different power source also make sure to have nacelles in conventional configurations to give them optimum effectiveness, as does the highly warlike Dominion.

I may admit that perhaps we're not on the same page, but when I say the speed difference is not all that great, this is what I mean;

• Warp 9 -- 1,516c
• Warp 9.2 -- 1,649c
• Warp 9.6 -- 1,909c
• Warp 9.9 -- 3,053c
• Warp 9.99 -- 7,912c

The Enterprise D, despite being far, far more massive than the Defiant, tops out at around 9.6 to the Defiant's Warp 9.5. It is faster, much faster--but it's not exactly the leaps and bounds you might expect, despite the two ships being more or less within the same generation. Voyager and Intrepid class ships are really fucking fast, being well over 3,000c. The Defiant is not really what I'd call slow. In fact, from a strategic sense, they're more or less the same.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Err...

You're forgetting something that we know has happened in real life: terminology drift.

Actually, I noted that with the "calling things battlecruisers even though that term doesn't mean anything without battleships to compare them to" thing.

That's also somewhat of a tangent from my main point in that the sort of one man fighters that have been discussed as a viable opition in the setting do not appear when they logically should, since a larger, heavier ship doesn't fill those same roles. Small, poor colonies can't easily build larger warships, and while groups like Dominion are willing to trade jem Hadar ships to score kills, they're too valuable to do that regularly (otherwise they would do it regularly, instead they only use those ships in suicidal attacks when they're desperate).

No, no. They didn't just use them that one time. They used them throughout the war. That war lasted for 2 seasons and those fighters were in multiple battles. As were the Jem'Hadar fighters. In fact, they were the most commonly deployed ship of the Dominion.

Right, the Federation used them in two battles, per the wiki, but we saw far more than that and they were not present.

As for jem Hadar ships, for the sake of clarity when we say fighters, we should use only to reference small, cheap, one or two man craft, not something like a Jem Hadar attack ship.

Actually, we've never really seen a full on attack against a colony world that I recall. Though keep in mind I don't sully myself with Discovery. In which case, we've gotten bits and pieces of what ground-based installations use. That does tend to be what you suggested, but there's no reason why one wouldn't argue that fighters might not supplement those. I don't see how it's controversial. It's both rather sensible and well within their means.

And really, when you consider the damage that some colonies have sustained from orbital bombardment--to the point of being reduced to a planetary wasteland--a colonist grabbing their old plasma rifle and taking pot shots at the sky is probably NOT going to cut it. What they probably do have is a range of ground facilities, fighters, and rapidly converted shuttles/craft that are used to defend themselves.

It is technologically possible to deploy wings of shuttles for defense, yes. But star trek doesn't do a lot of things that are technologically possible, so I'm not wanting to make assumptions based on what they could do vs what they have been shown to do.

They actually weren't. We saw onscreen that it took at least two hits to take out a Peregrine in one instance.

Ok, but still several of them got one shot, I might have missed one that got lucky but it's ot the norm (which makes since, similar sized craft like shuttles are extremely vulnerable to hostile fire).

Actually, the Defiant may reinforce the position. The Defiant is far, FAR smaller than most capital ships, in both length and sheer volume, but manages to remain competitive regardless.

Yes and no. The Defiant mostly goes up against Jrm Hadar attack ships or inferior cardassian vessels. I can only recall the details of a ship of its class facing down with a real capship twice. Paradise Lost and Valiant, which were a tie with an ship 80 years older than it (though with some upgrades) and a curbstomp in favor of a Dominion warship.

Actually, we know that the Maquis ones were able to move from system to system, so they have to be able to achieve a respectable warp speed. They're clearly short to medium range weapons platforms, which is what you might expect from a hybrid between fighters and scout ships.

Yes, that was my point. Small, one or two man fighters are clearly viable combats in the setting, there's not a need to build them bigger so that they can have more crew spaces.

 

[Battlegrinder]

The Enterprise D, despite being far, far more massive than the Defiant, tops out at around 9.6 to the Defiant's Warp 9.5. It is faster, much faster--but it's not exactly the leaps and bounds you might expect, despite the two ships being more or less within the same generation. Voyager and Intrepid class ships are really fucking fast, being well over 3,000c. The Defiant is not really what I'd call slow. In fact, from a strategic sense, they're more or less the same.

You're forgetting a few details from "The Sound of her voice". Yes, the defiant can reach 9.5, but not easily, not for long, and not without risk, while the Enterprise can hit 9.6 without breaking a sweat.

 

[Doomsought]

The defiant is ultimately a shore monitor. Its deep water performance is terrible, but its a monster at home. Since it is designed to make its home in realspace rather than subspace, I would imagine that its warp nacelles have some minor optimizations to improve the performance of its impulse engines.

 

[The Original Sixth]

Actually, I noted that with the "calling things battlecruisers even though that term doesn't mean anything without battleships to compare them to" thing.

That's also somewhat of a tangent from my main point in that the sort of one man fighters that have been discussed as a viable opition in the setting do not appear when they logically should, since a larger, heavier ship doesn't fill those same roles. Small, poor colonies can't easily build larger warships, and while groups like Dominion are willing to trade jem Hadar ships to score kills, they're too valuable to do that regularly (otherwise they would do it regularly, instead they only use those ships in suicidal attacks when they're desperate).

Actually, the Scimitar did deploy a dual-cockpit fighter with the Scorpions. Although what purpose they served is uncertain. The only weapon we saw on them seemed to be a low-level disruptor cannon that would probably at best serve as a weapon against other small craft or ground vehicles.

Right, the Federation used them in two battles, per the wiki, but we saw far more than that and they were not present.

No, we saw them directly in action in several battles. Because they would recycle battle scenes from the previous action sets.

As for jem Hadar ships, for the sake of clarity when we say fighters, we should use only to reference small, cheap, one or two man craft, not something like a Jem Hadar attack ship.

I mean, it certainly isn't what some people have in mind in this discussion, but it is a fighter.

It is technologically possible to deploy wings of shuttles for defense, yes. But star trek doesn't do a lot of things that are technologically possible, so I'm not wanting to make assumptions based on what they could do vs what they have been shown to do.

You have this bad habit of intentionally assuming that obvious things are not obviously done for no obvious reason. I think you should try and present an argument as to WHY the Federation would not do something that is to their advantage.

Ok, but still several of them got one shot, I might have missed one that got lucky but it's ot the norm (which makes since, similar sized craft like shuttles are extremely vulnerable to hostile fire).

In most cases, we don't see the entirety of battles, so it's impossible to tell how many shots a ship has taken. Those ships may in fact, have taken a thousand shots for all we know. Now, we both know that is unlikely. What we do know though, is that in at least one battle, a fighter took one shot and wasn't blown to bits. Not by one of the large main guns, mind you--but that suggests that it is possible.

Keep in mind that the GCS's main dorsal array has 200 elements. The main ventral array has 158. The dorsal neck has 35. Ventral engineering? 23.

Here's their respected outputs

• 1,020.00 MW
• 805.8 MW
• 178.5 MW
• 117.3 MW

And those are the medium to heavy guns on a GCS. The smaller arrays? Between 4-10 arrays. Specifically 10, 5, 4.

• 51.0 MW
• 25.5 MW
• 20.4 MW

And the Cardassian's most powerful gun on a capital ship was 700 MWs. That's about 30% lower than what we find on the GCS. So it might be between 14.28 -- 35.7 MW in firepower for the Cardassians. Either way, that is probably within the capacity of shielding ability that a small fighter could posses. And keep in mind that those are the modern UFP top shelf phaser elements.

Yes and no. The Defiant mostly goes up against Jrm Hadar attack ships or inferior cardassian vessels. I can only recall the details of a ship of its class facing down with a real capship twice. Paradise Lost and Valiant, which were a tie with an ship 80 years older than it (though with some upgrades) and a curbstomp in favor of a Dominion warship.

I'm sorry, but the sheer volume difference between the Defiant and any ship--even an 80 year old ship, should be a complete curbstomp in the larger ship's favor. ST technology just seems to work a bit differently. That can be explained by the amount of energy a small ship can have access to and effectively use for any given task. Warp reactors generate a lot of energy, but weapons generate comparatively little.

Yes, that was my point. Small, one or two man fighters are clearly viable combats in the setting, there's not a need to build them bigger so that they can have more crew spaces.

I mean, that seems agreeable. I'm just taking the position that their fighters, though not as closely defined as actual fighters, still serve their roles as fighter/scout/attack ships.

 

[The Original Sixth]

You're forgetting a few details from "The Sound of her voice". Yes, the defiant can reach 9.5, but not easily, not for long, and not without risk, while the Enterprise can hit 9.6 without breaking a sweat.

The Enterprise D can only maintain Warp 9.6 for 12 hours. Even if we say the Defiant normally tops out at 9.0 and the Enterprise D 9.6, the difference is only around 4,000c, If they were racing across our solar system, the Enterprise D would only arrive 4 seconds ahead of the Defiant. I mean, it's a huge difference--I'm not arguing that. But it's not really the sort of difference you might expect given their size.

My point is ultimately that while size does matter, it does not matter enough so that small ships are automatically SOL when going up against a larger ship. There is a degree of overlap in capability. In any real case scenario, a ship that amasses 355,000 metric tons should not come anywhere close to the performance of a ship that amasses at around 5,000,000 metric tons. Granted, a lot of the Enterprise D's space is used for non-military purposes, but the Enterprise is about 14x more massive than the Defiant, but it's only getting a 4 second edge on engine performance? Granted, that adds up over 12 hours--specifically a day, which is what they gained in "The Sound of her Voice", but it's just not what you would expect.

That overlap is what I think allows smaller ships to retain their utility despite occasionally going up against ships far, far more massive than they have any right to go up against. I mean, three Dominion fighters managed to hold their own against a Galaxy Class Starship. And they're even smaller than the Defiant. Even if the GCS was pulling its punches and even without the benefit of shield technology, that fight should have lasted about 5 minutes.

Mostly because the officers would be laughing themselves silly for the first four.