The Abortion Thread (Political)

[Deleted member 1]

If chance for existence holds moral value, abortion is as much of a crime as abstinence

The existence of a living being isn't a matter of dispute. The animating substances are but potentialities.

 

[ReeeFallin]

Proof that only the material world exists, and as such our sentience and minds are based out of physical processes?

If I could prove that, I'd be the most famous man on earth, having disproved all religion and metaphysical claims

Well if you could stop acting high and mighty while having no more proof than anyone else that'd be great

 

[Realm]

Well if you could stop acting high and mighty while having no more proof than anyone else that'd be great

Cool, why are you focusing on me? I have just as much proof as people saying there exists souls, and gods, why not say the same to them?

 

[ReeeFallin]

Cool, why are you focusing on me? I have just as much proof as people saying there exists souls, and gods, why not say the same to them?

because you're presenting your guess as a fact and using it to bludgeon other people.

 

[Realm]

because you're presenting your guess as a fact and using it to bludgeon other people.

I'm presenting my philosophical outlook as a fact to bludgeon people saying an action is murder by presenting their philosophical outlook as fact.

Tit for tat my man

 

[MementoMori]

Roe v Wade should be repealed, it's a stain on the judicial branch. It's an overreach of the supreme court literally creating laws where none exists. Not only did it create a law ex nihilo it also created a federal tax that every citizen have to pay. I can somewhat understand your choice of committing abortion out of convenience, but I also have to pay for it?

Should abortion be legalized is a decision that should be taken by the state, not by the bench.

 

[ShieldWife]

Abortion should be decided on the state level. To put it into perspective, laws against murder are also handled at the state level. There is no provision in the Constitution that grants a right to an abortion and therefore, by the 10th Amendment, it should be handled by the states.

That said, there has always been something about abortion laws that troubled me - how they combine with paternity and child support. As the law stands now in the USA, a pregnant woman has the choice to have an abortion. The baby's father has no choice in the matter. He is forced to become a father and pay child support for 18 if the woman so desires it and he is removed of the ability to be a father if the woman makes that choice.

Some might argue that because the baby must spend 9 months growing in the woman's body that it gives her a unique right to decide to abort or not, the man doesn't get this choice because it is not his body. If we ignore for a moment the bodily integrity and humanity of the fetus, this argument does make some degree of sense. The problem is that rights must necessarily come with related responsibilities. If a woman, by reason of biology, is granted the special right to decide whether or not a fetus is allowed to live and be born, then that woman must also have the full responsibility for that choice which is entirely hers. Therefore, if women have the sole choice in whether or not the child is born, then they must also have the sole responsibility for the welfare of the child. This means that there should be no child care or child support payment requirements on a man who had no choice in that child coming into existence.

This would be the more morally and philosophically sound policy and would also prevent a lot of female misbehavior that undermines the family and parenthood - misbehavior which is facilitated by the fact that women have the power to burden others with the consequences of their choices.

Alternatively, abortion could be outlawed.

 

[Deleted member 1]

@ShieldWife, of course, if we had a healthy social order for mutual support in the form of extended families and community-based organisations of women to care for children (as some matrilineal societies are organised in Sumatra, for instance), it would be of little concern. Men could all go off together and live in the men's house. But the reality is we don't have any of that -- which is exactly why nobody properly cares for children being born anyway. And rather face up to our fundamental social dysfunction, which is in our lack of social bonds (whatever traditional schema they are founded on -- I know you would likely consider what is ideal there quite different from me) that lead to the quick, easy, and brutally merciless "fix" of abortion...

 

[ProphetOfTruth]

I listened to an entertaining yet sincerely compelling take on reproductive rights and Ben Shapiro today from PhilosophyTube:



I'm not sure if I could succinctly summarize the video's arguments and conclusions in a way that captures the nuance, so I will simply say - other than that you really should give it a listen - that:

• The speaker is at times witty and at times quite sobering
• The speaker acknowledges the ethical and moral quandary of abortion
• The speaker presents an compelling parable/philosophical exercise

Now, I will say that in the end I took issue with a single (but crucial) aspect of that exercise's premise, but more on that later should anyone actually take a peek.

 

[Terthna]

I believe that having an abortion is not a choice that should be made lightly, but I also believe people have the right to make that choice. There in fact are many situations where I believe abortion is the only moral choice; if the pregnancy becomes life-threatening, for example, and it comes down to deciding between the life of the mother or the child, I would always choose the mother. Or if the child turns out to have serious physical or mental defects, I would argue it is better to not force anyone to live such a life, nor is it right to force a mother to take care of such a child; and I say this knowing full well that, as an autistic person, I am essentially arguing that I should have been aborted.

What I don't agree with, however, is using abortion as a lazy substitute for a proper birth control regimen; if you just don't want kids, there is no shortage of tools at your disposal that can facilitate that without bringing the question of "is a fetus a person?" into the equation. Abortion is the option of last resort, not something that should ever be glorified.

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

I would always choose the mother

but would the mother though?

 

[Nitramy]

What I don't agree with, however, is using abortion as a lazy substitute for a proper birth control regimen; if you just don't want kids, there is no shortage of tools at your disposal that can facilitate that without bringing the question of "is a fetus a person?" into the equation. Abortion is the option of last resort, not something that should ever be glorified.

This is what I mean by legally accepting but morally opposing abortion; and yes, that is also my stance on this issue.

 

[Deleted member 1]

This Wikipedia article has a rather nice chart listing seven reasons for abortion. I believe the seventh justification, “on request”, should always be illegal at any time in pregnancy. In present conditions, 1-6 should be legal before quickening (the first movement of the child), and only 1 (life of the mother) should be available during the whole of pregnancy. Physical health (2) is more complicated, but might be.

My objective is to improve society so we can morally outlaw (6), economic reasons, throughout pregnancy just like 7.

 

[Lanmandragon]

A brain dead coma victim is not a person, despite biologically being a human being.

Person and human being are separate concepts. There can be nonhuman persons, and human non persons.

The part that matters is the mind, the sense of self, which neither the brain dead man, or fetus possesses.

Also souls aren't real, so jot that down

That's a pretty bad argument. When you consider that brain dead coma dude. Either has to give permission or his next of kin does in order to terminate thier life.

 

[Lanmandragon]

@ShieldWife, of course, if we had a healthy social order for mutual support in the form of extended families and community-based organisations of women to care for children (as some matrilineal societies are organised in Sumatra, for instance), it would be of little concern. Men could all go off together and live in the men's house. But the reality is we don't have any of that -- which is exactly why nobody properly cares for children being born anyway. And rather face up to our fundamental social dysfunction, which is in our lack of social bonds (whatever traditional schema they are founded on -- I know you would likely consider what is ideal there quite different from me) that lead to the quick, easy, and brutally merciless "fix" of abortion...

Some folks here in the states have extended family and community support. Depends on the family and the area.

 

[Terthna]

but would the mother though?

Maybe, maybe not; but the mother can always have another child, while the child will never have another mother. The mother is just more important to save, in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 1]

Maybe, maybe not; but the mother can always have another child, while the child will never have another mother. The mother is just more important to save, in my opinion.

That should be her decision unless she is unable to make it, in which case it should be the decision of her nearest relative. A mother has the right to die for her children.

 

[Terthna]

That should be her decision unless she is unable to make it, in which case it should be the decision of her nearest relative. A mother has the right to die for her children.

I'd argue a person has the right to die regardless of their reasoning for doing so; doesn't change the fact I disagree with that reasoning.

 

[Deleted member 1]

I'd argue a person has the right to die regardless of their reasoning for doing so; doesn't change the fact I disagree with that reasoning.

My religion doesn't condemn suicide, so in principle I have no disagreement, however, in this specific case I was just observing the profound bond of mother and child.

 

[Terthna]

My religion doesn't condemn suicide, so in principle I have no disagreement, however, in this specific case I was just observing the profound bond of mother and child.

Which I understand, but I also think is misplaced in a situation like that; because it dooms the child to a life without a mother.