Superhero “Deconstructions” and somehow “superheroes” becoming Hollywood Celebrities

[CarlManvers2019]

This is a thing I tend to notice with said “deconstructions” is that they end up working for the government or a corporation

They’re actually “actors” who just so happen to have superpowers or they’re required to do advertising for their company while doing superheroics that are seen by people and lots of merchandise gets sold

I know there’s a lot of practicality in not having to work a job in their “secret identity” but to me working for a company makes em feel “fake” or something

And when they’re shown being douchebags with hidden scandals that may relate to depraved hedonism and domestic issues, I question what’s really being deconstructed here? Superheroes or Hollywood Celebrities?

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It sounds like you're talking about MHA.

I guess it depends on what you want out of your story that revolves around superpowers.

If you're an oldschool purist, then you probably like your superheroes being virtuous and humble, heroing when necessary for good, not for glory (aka they only appear in their mask when they need to catch a bad guy and don't try to become celebrities or do interviews or whatever). So like Superman or Spiderman.

Newer generations have grown up accepting invasive and overarching government and corporate bureaucracy. People are told from school that they are to grow up and are supposed to be happy to live to work/slave for a corporation or the government from 9 to 5, and that being a lawful citizen is the most important thing in the world. To them it makes sense that superheroes would become employees (read: slaves) of the government or a corporation. I always found MHA's world and narrative to be warped, where the narrative says that working for a corrupt government and corporate bureaucracy is the right thing to do, and that trying to be a classic, oldschool hero who works by themselves for good and are humble and is not beheld to a fallible government or corporate bureaucracy is somehow bad and evil.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

It sounds like you're talking about MHA.

I guess it depends on what you want out of your story that revolves around superpowers.

If you're an oldschool purist, then you probably like your superheroes being virtuous and humble, heroing when necessary for good, not for glory (aka they only appear in their mask when they need to catch a bad guy and don't try to become celebrities or do interviews or whatever). So like Superman or Spiderman.

Newer generations have grown up accepting invasive and overarching government and corporate bureaucracy. People are told from school that they are to grow up and are supposed to be happy to live to work/slave for a corporation or the government from 9 to 5, and that being a lawful citizen is the most important thing in the world. To them it makes sense that superheroes would become employees (read: slaves) of the government or a corporation. I always found MHA's world and narrative to be warped, where the narrative says that working for a corrupt government and corporate bureaucracy is the right thing to do, and that trying to be a classic, oldschool hero who works by themselves for good and are humble and is not beheld to a fallible government or corporate bureaucracy is somehow bad and evil.

Not talking about MHA

Was thinking "The Boys" at first, where the "superheroes" there are a bunch of disgusting hedonistic idiots who never really actually fight or have actual fighting experience on average and are protected by PR teams

Though I've noticed Japan's got a thing for making superheroes into employees or "Public Servants" with ranking systems

I think BNHA's point regarding "vigilantes" was that they were likely untrained or did not have the same sort of political connections as the ones who now work with/for the government. And that well-intentioned heroics could have disastrous accidents like that one character called Gentle Criminal, who I think accidentally hurt a guy he was trying to save even more.

You're supposed to hold back and leave it to trained and affirmed professionals more than anything

TBF, the heroes of BNHA and series like Tiger&Bunny and Ratman are mostly good people, but that seems mainly because aside from wanting cash, they're fans of what they saw as legit heroes and it helped that those who say, met All-Might know him to be a legit dude. Pedestals intact. Plus, unlike the above, their pay checks are probably slashed the moment they cause trouble.

That said, my beef with the whole fame and celebrity thing, is more that they make it a lot more official(by working with corporations and doing ads)and make it that most heroes are in on the whole getting sponsored thing.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Though I've noticed Japan's got a thing for making superheroes into employees or "Public Servants" with ranking systems

I think that the ranking systems come from D&D, or at least Japan's interpretation of it. The original Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy games in 1986 and 1987 were based off of D&D filtered through Japan's lens (and video games), and those initial DQ and FF games codified the "fantasy genre" in Japan (just how LotR and D&D codified "fantasy" in the West). The foundations that DQ and FF laid down regarding the setting of a Japanese fantasy setting (monsters roaming outside town, adventurer's guilds, crystals, etc) were ingrained in the minds of people and are accepted without hesitation. Ranking systems were added to rank monsters and adventurers. I think when One Punch Man and MHA were being created, the authors probably just took the ranking systems from Japanese fantasy and applied them to their worlds without much thought (admittedly the logic makes sense at a first glance). Superheroes in OPM and MHA are pretty much just adventurers from Japanese fantasy, except with more bureaucracy typical of a modern 21st century 1st world nation.

You're supposed to hold back

Japanese anime and games can be weird like that. "No, you can't kill the bad guy, or you will be just like him!"... even though said bad guy is actively trying to kill innocent people and just killing the bad guy is the simplest way to stop him (Xenoblade 1 comes to mind, Tomino Gundam). Or "whatever legitimate grievances you have are irrelevant. Stop fighting!" (Miyazaki's Ghibli films, Pokemon, Tomino Gundam, etc). Attacking people, or god forbid, killing bad guys, is a heinous act that good guys never do. (I mean, not killing people is preferable yes, but often Japanese fiction I've seen seems to take it too far to the point of ridiculousness).

I think BNHA's point regarding "vigilantes" was that they were likely untrained or did not have the same sort of political connections as the ones who now work with/for the government. And that well-intentioned heroics could have disastrous accidents like that one character called Gentle Criminal, who I think accidentally hurt a guy he was trying to save even more.

...

leave it to trained and affirmed professionals more than anything

I always found the outlawing of the use of Quirks in public unless you have a hero license to be ridiculous. When 80% of the global population has superpowers, you can't really stop people from using their powers. You cannot possibly enforce that. Sure, you can arrest a few people, but quirk usage is going to be widespread and you'll never be able to clamp down on that. Furthermore, many quirks are useful.

I also found the idea that "you should never try to save people, even if you are right there, unless you have a hero license!" to be dumb. The example they used with Gentle cannot be taken to be representative of the outcome of these incidents at large (also the example was rather dumb because Gentle had absolutely no way of knowing that a flying hero was about to swoop in from offscreen. As far as he knew, that guy who was falling was going to die and Gentle may very well have been the only person with a chance to stop it. Gentle was absolutely 100% correct to try to save that guy, and the flying hero coming out of nowhere was unfortunate, but not Gentle's fault.

TBF, the heroes of BNHA and series like Tiger&Bunny and Ratman are mostly good people, but that seems mainly because aside from wanting cash, they're fans of what they saw as legit heroes and it helped that those who say, met All-Might know him to be a legit dude. Pedestals intact. Plus, unlike the above, their pay checks are probably slashed the moment they cause trouble.

MHA's worship of the state always felt immoral to me. In season 4, a little girl runs up to Deku and begins crying for help, and an obvious bad guy walks up to Deku and asked him to hand the girl over to him. Alarm bells are ringing in Deku's head (rightfully so) and he's contemplating fleeing with the girl (and then sorting out if she really belonged to that guy later). But then the fellow hero who is next to Deku is watching this all happen and is doing nothing, and crapping on Deku in his head because legally Deku isn't supposed to do anything. The show treats the right thing to do is to just let the obvious bad guy waltz off with the little girl. It's bizzare. (Now yes, they were staking out the bad guy, and he was pretty powerful, but the narrative seems to condemn morally right actions if they break the law).

That said, my beef with the whole fame and celebrity thing, is more that they make it a lot more official(by working with corporations and doing ads)and make it that most heroes are in on the whole getting sponsored thing.

Yeah, that's another thing I'm not a fan of. MHA seems to have this circus about heroes trying to become popular and celebrities and chasing stardom, and the narrative seems to treat this as if it's normal, like that this isn't a vain or selfish thing. In S4, they have the 10 top heroes get on stage on national TV and it's treated like "these are the protectors of our nation!" when it's really just a big popularity contest.

There is also something nihilistic about MHA, where one of the top 10 heroes, Hawks, decides to try to spin lies to the public and try to manipulate the perception of Endeavor, trying to promote him as this big, moral, mighty protector like All Might as "the hero of Japan". I mean, Endeavor isn't All Might and lacks charisma, but the narrative doesn't seem to believe that such people can become admirable community figures without the aid of liars and subterfuge.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Superheroes in OPM and MHA are pretty much just adventurers from Japanese fantasy, except with more bureaucracy typical of a modern 21st century 1st world nation.

It helps give a sense of "order" in-contrast to a bunch of murderhobos randomly wandering the land

Attacking people, or god forbid, killing bad guys, is a heinous act that good guys never do. (I mean, not killing people is preferable yes, but often Japanese fiction I've seen seems to take it too far to the point of ridiculousness).

It's less about killing and more about unnecessary property damage

I always found the outlawing of the use of Quirks in public unless you have a hero license to be ridiculous. When 80% of the global population has superpowers, you can't really stop people from using their powers. You cannot possibly enforce that. Sure, you can arrest a few people, but quirk usage is going to be widespread and you'll never be able to clamp down on that. Furthermore, many quirks are useful.

I also found the idea that "you should never try to save people, even if you are right there, unless you have a hero license!" to be dumb. The example they used with Gentle cannot be taken to be representative of the outcome of these incidents at large (also the example was rather dumb because Gentle had absolutely no way of knowing that a flying hero was about to swoop in from offscreen. As far as he knew, that guy who was falling was going to die and Gentle may very well have been the only person with a chance to stop it. Gentle was absolutely 100% correct to try to save that guy, and the flying hero coming out of nowhere was unfortunate, but not Gentle's fault.

I read a bit of the Vigilantes-Prequel set maybe 2-3 years before the start of BNHA, they stopped the MC from using his ability due to accidents or something

You're supposed to "trust the professionals" or "not be reckless" even if as far as you know, there's no other option but to risk your life and do something "crazy"

MHA's worship of the state always felt immoral to me. In season 4, a little girl runs up to Deku and begins crying for help, and an obvious bad guy walks up to Deku and asked him to hand the girl over to him. Alarm bells are ringing in Deku's head (rightfully so) and he's contemplating fleeing with the girl (and then sorting out if she really belonged to that guy later). But then the fellow hero who is next to Deku is watching this all happen and is doing nothing, and crapping on Deku in his head because legally Deku isn't supposed to do anything. The show treats the right thing to do is to just let the obvious bad guy waltz off with the little girl. It's bizzare. (Now yes, they were staking out the bad guy, and he was pretty powerful, but the narrative seems to condemn morally right actions if they break the law).

I remember that, there was stuff about how they shouldn't have fought, because it'd be an unnecessary risk or something

Being cautious is a good thing, but there are times when you have little option but to attack or rush in

I remember talking to someone who kept on going it would be "crazy" for someone to "actually do something" even if someone else's life is in danger or even their own and there's little option but to go ahead and risk their own life

Stuff about how you're "crazy" if you choose to save people from danger or stand up and fight when there's little option instead of running away to get slaughtered or freezing up in the face of said danger

"The Law" as a "near-perfect bureaucracy" where "we are working together" is a simple idea I think they latch onto

Yeah, that's another thing I'm not a fan of. MHA seems to have this circus about heroes trying to become popular and celebrities and chasing stardom, and the narrative seems to treat this as if it's normal, like that this isn't a vain or selfish thing. In S4, they have the 10 top heroes get on stage on national TV and it's treated like "these are the protectors of our nation!" when it's really just a big popularity contest.

And the time they're on said National TV is time where they're not doing their jobs

TBH, reminds me of scenes like in the Spiderman Movies where he got some reward, fact that he even had time to get said reward makes me think he could have been elsewhere

TBF, there are times when PR stunts like that are "necessary" but I prefer if they just stuck to crimefighting instead of doing stuff like say, going up to talk in front of the UN or get the key to the city

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

there is a problem with one thing about deconstructions like the boys. we already have a name for sadistic superpowered beings. We call them supervillains.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

there is a problem with one thing about deconstructions like the boys, we already have a name for sadistic superpower beings...supervillains.

Yeah, an "Evil Superhero" is just a supervillain

And those going on about "deconstructions" may miss out on how the superheroes themselves have been "tempted" before and learned to control themselves to avoid going bad

Brightburn as a "deconstruction" of Superman FAILS when you take into account the guy was being brainwashed by his alien ship

And hell, the kid had a good family and wasn't really being treated badly by others in his school and the pushing down part was an emotional trust exercise and he was spying on a girl from school from her window

 

[Bear Ribs]

In general in Asian media it's rare to find the government being criticized in any way. Even criticizing big corporations is verboten, at most you might find an asshole middle manager but the CEO/Owner? Generally a good person. There's no equivalent of Weland-Yutani or Umbrella Corp to be found*. When you find bad futures and crapsack worlds it's never government mismanagement; it's invariably demons, foreign invaders, or natural disasters that caused it.

Consequently the idea of rogue superheroes that don't obey the government simply doesn't given the social framework fiction has to operate under in the east. Hence most fiction has superhero associations of some kind.

*NERV is probably the closest you'll get and even it's a rogue organization under the UN, not the actual Japanese Government.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

In general in Asian media it's rare to find the government being criticized in any way. Even criticizing big corporations is verboten, at most you might find an asshole middle manager but the CEO/Owner? Generally a good person. There's no equivalent of Weland-Yutani or Umbrella Corp to be found*. When you find bad futures and crapsack worlds it's never government mismanagement; it's invariably demons, foreign invaders, or natural disasters that caused it.

Consequently the idea of rogue superheroes that don't obey the government simply doesn't given the social framework fiction has to operate under in the east. Hence most fiction has superhero associations of some kind.

*NERV is probably the closest you'll get and even it's a rogue organization under the UN, not the actual Japanese Government.

There was a thread awhile back about Post-Apocalyptic Settings and how come they’re so orderly or rebuilt

I’m reading something called Rebuild World, a series about some Shota slumdog with a Hot AI Waifu

The world’s more or less ruled by some corporations who are currently in charge of protecting the major settlements and are even part of some sort of “front” that’s trying to expand past all the monsters around

And said cities more or less operate under the same Fantasy Guilds and again are VERY rebuilt to the point modern conveniences and other shiny stuff and industry are a thing unless you’re from the slums and you live on some weird artificial goop as welfare

No one including the protagonists are resenting this

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

In general in Asian media it's rare to find the government being criticized in any way. Even criticizing big corporations is verboten, at most you might find an asshole middle manager but the CEO/Owner? Generally a good person. There's no equivalent of Weland-Yutani or Umbrella Corp to be found*. When you find bad futures and crapsack worlds it's never government mismanagement; it's invariably demons, foreign invaders, or natural disasters that caused it.

Consequently the idea of rogue superheroes that don't obey the government simply doesn't given the social framework fiction has to operate under in the east. Hence most fiction has superhero associations of some kind.

*NERV is probably the closest you'll get and even it's a rogue organization under the UN, not the actual Japanese Government.

What about Legend of the Galactic Heroes? That's a Japanese show and all three of the governments in it start out run by corrupt assholes. I see a lot if dislike in Japanese media of various kinds of governments, particularly hereditary aristocracies.

 

[Bear Ribs]

What about Legend of the Galactic Heroes? That's a Japanese show and all three of the governments in it start out run by corrupt assholes. I see a lot if dislike in Japanese media of various kinds of governments, particularly hereditary aristocracies.

I should probably have specified, it's their government. Asian nations generally don't mind scathing others, it's themselves that are sancrosanct. The King in GATE is incompetent and the US appears to be pure evil but the Japanese Government is perfect.

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

I should probably have specified, it's their government. Asian nations generally don't mind scathing others, it's themselves that are sancrosanct. The King in GATE is incompetent and the US appears to be pure evil but the Japanese Government is perfect.

Right, that makes sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I should probably have specified, it's their government. Asian nations generally don't mind scathing others, it's themselves that are sancrosanct. The King in GATE is incompetent and the US appears to be pure evil but the Japanese Government is perfect.

Plus, when it's with "Guilds" in fantasy settings not as if we always see the heads of state around

You know, now that I think about it, Monster Hunter International almost has something of a "Guild System", hell you could start up your own new "Guild" and you could probably go monster hunting on your own, though not exactly practical due to there being reasons why things like teamwork and resources being a thing

Now that I think about it, the PUFF system is a BAD thing, I mean really the governments of the world are probably printing billions of dollars worth of worthless cash for all the new threats popping up

And as shown in V2, while it'd be illegal, there's some abuse that can occur by people making monsters or worsening the monster populace's numbers to have a go at a higher bounty

I think it's called the Cobra Effect

People may intentionally worsen a problem if only they can get paid more

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

What about Legend of the Galactic Heroes? That's a Japanese show and all three of the governments in it start out run by corrupt assholes. I see a lot if dislike in Japanese media of various kinds of governments, particularly hereditary aristocracies.

LoGH glorifies philosopher kings who lead by example and appoint other righteous, wise men as rulers, bypassing corrupt and inefficient bureaucratic infrastructures and do what they need to do. LoGH ridicules Western democracy based off of the US, where you have a vast, inefficient, rigid bureaucracy that is easily and heavily corrupted and prevent the good guys from doing what they need to do.

As for the evil church in LoGH, well, that's just your typical evil church trope in Japanese fiction. I wouldn't read too much into it. Christianity is foreign and exotic to Asia and creators love to riff on the superficial iconography to make their stories more cool. Same thing in the West where Buddhism and Taoism and Shintoism and Chi and stuff is foreign and exotic to the West and creators love to riff on the superficial iconography to make their stories more cool. The creators don't really understand the intricacies of what they're riffing and they're not really trying to make a philosophical statement; it's just there because it's cool. I think the Trails series is the one and only example of a Church in Japanese fiction that I can think of where the Church isn't evil, but they're actually the good guys, but the series doesn't go into depth about the religion or the philosophical implications of the Church, so again I think it's just there to be cool and that the Church is good because it's an interesting subversion of the trope. (Contrast that with the depiction of Churches in Western media, where the creators are obviously expressing anti-Christian rhetoric and it's not in the story "because it's cool")

 

[JagerIV]

The boys being primarily celebrities always struck me as odd, and a bit nonsensical the more you thought of it.

Celebrities simply don't actually make all that money. Like, current total global movie industry is something like 140 billion total. And that supports an immense number of support infrastructure. Disney makes something like $64 billion, but has to spend some $60 billion to make it. Your talking about a 5% profit margin.

Meanwhile, if the super heroes contract out to cities, the overhead is much, much lower and can opperate on much smaller payrolls.

The other big problem with the boys is also for how rich the boys are supposed to be, they dont really act it.

 

[robertliguori]

It's very much a misunderstanding of different kinds of power, in most of its incarnations. Celebrities are powerful because they command the respect, or at least the attention, of many others. Superheroes are powerful because of what they can actually do. You can't cancel or blacklist a superhero, or rather, if you try, you don't actually stop them from superheroing, you just turn them into a vigilante (or a supervillain).

One setting which at least nods in this direction is One Punch Man, where the titular hero gets very, very little respect from the mandatory hero guild, despite being ludicrously powerful. But the flip side of that is that guild and its policies have no actual power over One Punch Man, and that attempts to hammer the sticking-up nail fail hilariously quickly.

You could probably have an interesting setting where this was done deliberately, Unseen University style, with a reveal midway through the campaign that the whole celebrity culture the heroes had been struggling against in their early days was 100% deliberate, and meant to keep supervillains competing for media attention instead of actually committing effective crime. You could point to horrible war-torn areas where the crappy-celebrity-hero-equivalents didn't get the attention they wanted from the media and so just started taking what they wanted, and have an actual at-what-price conversation about overlooking the moral flaws of horrible people in order to keep them at least pretending to be good in public, more or less, versus starting a fight which could end society in order to keep your own hands clean.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

In general in Asian media it's rare to find the government being criticized in any way. Even criticizing big corporations is verboten, at most you might find an asshole middle manager but the CEO/Owner? Generally a good person. There's no equivalent of Weland-Yutani or Umbrella Corp to be found*.

Uh, wait a minute there. Umbrella Corporation is from Asian media.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Uh, wait a minute there. Umbrella Corporation is from Asian media.

Hmm, I only know of it from the American made movies and books. Wasn't aware it was in some games too. Serves me right for not being a gamer I guess.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Hmm, I only know of it from the American made movies and books. Wasn't aware it was in some games too. Serves me right for not being a gamer I guess.

The original source for that entire universe is the Japanese video game Biohazard, which was developed by Capcom for the PlayStation and retitled Resident Evil for its North American release due to copyright issues.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Deconstruction happens when a genre is in its death throes. The popularity of the Boys means that capeshit movies are on their way out.